My Grande Journey

[rabidus]

Using less efficient, more expensive blades to make a razor less efficient certainly dulls it "wow" factor.

You can use it with Prolines, but your technique had better be spot on. It's not much of a "safety razor" with Prolines. Overkill for me.

Also Feather Pro and Feather Pro Super are affordable on Amazon these days.

Prolines cost me $.37 a blade, anything more than that is expensive.

It was the hunt for daily BBS that moved me from cartridge to safety razors. If I waited every third day, the supermarket rebranded Dorco 6 and hand-lathered Irish Spring would do it all fine.

I use to shave daily. With the SE1/Proline, BBS last for at least 20 hours before I feel stubble break skin. So there's nothing really to shave on day 2.

BBS with a Gillette Tech only lasts for 3-4 hours before stubble breaks skin.

 

[thombrogan]

You can use it with Prolines, but your technique had better be spot on.

My technique's off for even my wee RazoRock BlackHawk, so I'll keep the SE2 in daydream status for now.

Prolines cost me $.37 a blade, anything more than that is expensive.

How many did you have to grab in one shot to get that price? The Feather Pro and Super Pro are $0.50usd if you buy one 20-pack of Pros or five 20-packs of Super Pros.

I use to shave daily. With the SE1/Proline, BBS last for at least 20 hours before I feel stubble break skin. So there's nothing really to shave on day 2.

Even with my Proline, I can only get near that with a look like an otter was breaking open clamshells on my neck and sideburns area. When I dial it back to a clam opening otters on my face, the stubble comes back in 10-12 hours

BBS with a Gillette Tech only lasts for 3-4 hours before stubble breaks skin.
[/QUOTE]

 

[rabidus]

How many did you have to grab in one shot to get that price? The Feather Pro and Super Pro are $0.50usd if you buy one 20-pack of Pros or five 20-packs of Super Pros.

I've only ordered 3-4, 30 blade cartridges at a time. I have about 400 blades. Price comes to about $.37 a blade for either. One pack of 30 is about $.40 a blade, I believe other members have stated that. These are Japan prices, buying from the US, prices are higher.

 

[Esox]

The smoother appearance above and below the factory suggest it’s hollow ground with something coarse and most likely buffed as a final sharpening/deburring step.

What were you using for the regrind? The appearance it left is very smooth.



I was thinking more along the lines of feel of the razor blade against your face versus blade esthetics.



I have no GEM experience. Prolines are smooth, but my experiences are limited to one Kai Pink that may have been good and one Proline I’ve used about a dozen or so times. Got 5 Prolines from Tryablade.com in case they weren’t “da bomb diggety yo” versus getting the bestest deal and then despisifying them. N=1 is super happy so far.



Not aspiring to splash isopropyl on my face, but glad it wasn’t a call for you to change your technique. Nice!



And so can you! If the first time you shaved steep with a Derby Extra increased the duration of your BBS time, going steep with a Proline in an ATT SE2 should keep your face shiny for a week.

Also, after pushing the SE2 on you with my only real life SE experience being the RazoRock BlackHawk V2 (aluminum like you read about), I read a post from an ATT SE2 user mentioning chatter. Chatter?!

So the good news is the SE1 has less surface area when gold platin.



I felt like a sinner shaving steep with the SE, but I was getting all the discomfort starting shallow ATG. I binned a Kai Pink after three uses. Shave one was like Potter’s first day at Hogwarts. Shaves two and three were progressively worse and my analogy was too dark to type.

Ordered 5 Prolines and switched to shaving shallow with the Grande until they showed up. And then even after they showed because I hadn’t/haven’t got the hang of it. Switched back to the SE with its enhanced Schick goodness, placed its cap against my neck and felt it stop immediately. Went steep and finished the shave all ATG.

Going to get there and have been stealing gems from you, Rudy, Jim, Anthony, and Cal where I can find them.

I used my Arkansas Whetstone. I think its 4k but not sure. Its my finishing stone for sharpening knives.

You can read about that blade here: First SE Shave. - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/first-se-shave.524844/

The GEM PTFE blade is a whole new world.

I can shave steep anywhere by my swirls with a DE. I can even shave them steeply with my GEM's. Using my Grande in most of my shave I shave more neutral/steep than shallow and with quite a bit of pressure. When I have to shave shallow, my pressure increases as my angle decreases. If I'm shaving directly ATG first pass, the shallower the better.

Chatter from a rigid design is most likely razor chatter stemming from a lack of pressure to keep the blade against the skin and cutting smoothly, so it's skipping when it runs into enough resistance. The no pressure fallacy, can cause that.

From what I gather of the RR Black Hawk, its a mild and forgiving razor with little blade exposure. The NEW SC has positive blade exposure but less so than the Fatip. Shaving extremely shallow with the Fatip is made much easier because of the extra blade exposure and less pressure needs to be applied to the cap of the Fatip to make it cut at the same depth. Using the NEW SC extremely shallow left me with a very nice BBS finish, but maintaining the pressure required throughout the shave was the difficult part. My growth came in a bit patchy because the pressure applied to the cap is what dictated the depth of cut. Shaving my jawline and chin was more difficult because I simply just couldnt push the razor into skin as deeply as I can on my neck and cheeks.

Shaving steep eliminates that issue completely but then I have the issue with my skin and the razors blade gap causing irritation.

We all get there in the end if we're determined and take the time to understand what is working and why. When that is understood, the road becomes much shorter.

 

[Esox]

Instead, I'm here reading what you wrote about 'hearing' the stubble getting cut answer trying non-irritating ways of doing the same. I've felt the 'hearing' and love the long-lasting shave it provides, but can't yet do it without looking like I've scuffed my face.

See his post here;

Try an extremely shallow angle, it will slice more than scrape. Ride the cap and lower the handle until the blade engages. Do not focus on "feeling" the blade, focus on feeling stubble being cut. Listen for feedback.

Then the result of my following that advice. This was my first shave done like he suggested.

Wow. I'm a bit stunned tbh.

You should make a thread titled "How to Shave with a Gillette NEW SC Without a Blade!" because thats exactly what it felt like.

Shaving like that is something like a "Life Hack". I didnt have to change the angle much and once I was there just a simple grip change on the razor and I was in business. I found the change in pressure I needed to apply more difficult to maintain than the angle. I didnt feel the blade at all and honestly was stunned to end up with one of, if not the most comfortable, BBS shaves I've ever had, albeit with one tiny weeper from the difference in pressure required, which was slightly more for me. I cant say I felt the blade at all other than giving myself that one small weeper. Not feeling the blade like that and hearing the stubble being cut instead of both threw me off, but I'm onto ya now

For all you people that already do this, laugh if you must, but this is exactly the type of information that needs to be more mainstream. That one simple adjustment of technique, once explained and understood, can save some people, such as myself, a lot of blood, irritation and misery lol.

Using my Grande I simply did the same thing, but as I said, its much easier to find my desired extremely shallow angle because the Fatip has more blade exposure. In the picture below, think of the red line as the level of my skin with the cap pushed into it and all pressure applied is between the green lines. Doing that forces your skin to rise to meet the blade while creating a reverse blade gap.

Get the angle and pressure just right and it is just like magic. For me, when doing that with a Gillette Yellow, the blade is invisible. I feel nothing at all and I really have to concentrate to hear the stubble being cut they slip through my hairs so easily.

The GEM razors basically have that very technique built right into them because of the shape of the caps. They're specifically designed to be used at that shallow an angle and when used properly, the skin rises to meet the edge from pressure applied in the very same way. The only difference then, is the inherent rigidity of the blade and how well it slices through your hairs composition. If I lose the angle even a little bit, the DE blade in my Grande will flex, tug and lift the skin and then I'll have a weeper. If I lose the angle, even quite a bit, with a GEM, the blades thickness is enough to overcome any resistance met by my hairs composition and it slices through it from the momentum of the stroke. Shave with confidence, not tentatively. A tentative shave will lead to the razor skipping, razor chatter.

 

[thombrogan]

I used my Arkansas Whetstone. I think its 4k but not sure. Its my finishing stone for sharpening knives.

Arkies are great for finishing stones, but would be inefficient for that task. A fresh fragment of wet/dry with either machining oil or slightly soapy water would be a lot quicker. 1,200 grit to reduce worry about the apex and 320 grit followed by a microbevel from your stone to avoid dying of old age.

Chatter from a rigid design is most likely razor chatter stemming from a lack of pressure to keep the blade against the skin and cutting smoothly, so it's skipping when it runs into enough resistance. The no pressure fallacy, can cause that.

From your keypad to G-d’s eyes. Only it now means a gold plated ATT SE2 is what you shouldn’t deny yourself…

From what I gather of the RR Black Hawk, its a mild and forgiving razor with little blade exposure.

It gets the job done steep or shallow and reminds me I’m always doing something wrong (or worse, letting me have an irritation-free shave with only my temples BBS), so it’s better than my Yaqi double open comb and Maggards V3A heads and the rigidity and thickness of the blade makes it easier to use than the R41 head. The FaTip Grande has a nicer feeling comb and looks cuter, but could benefit from an AC format blade…

The NEW SC has positive blade exposure but less so than the Fatip. Shaving extremely shallow with the Fatip is made much easier because of the extra blade exposure and less pressure needs to be applied to the cap of the Fatip to make it cut at the same depth.

Does doing what you’ve described; especiall/specifically ATG; reduce irritation by raising the hair to be cut further out of their pores to allow their slicing to occur without the edge touching your skin?

Shaving my jawline and chin was more difficult because I simply just couldnt push the razor into skin as deeply as I can on my neck and cheeks.

The trouble spots mentioned might be handled with skin stretching techniques like those used by the straight razor crowd. Move the flesh on your jawline either cheekwards or neckwards and shave in a site where you can push deeply.

Shaving steep eliminates that issue completely but then I have the issue with my skin and the razors blade gap causing irritation.

The gap becomes a place where the blade may flex and load some energy? I thought the gap was more a foe to the shallow shaver.

We all get there in the end if we're determined and take the time to understand what is working and why. When that is understood, the road becomes much shorter.

I just don’t like the lag time between when I’m to-my-bones sure I know and then actually learning.

 

[Esox]

Arkies are great for finishing stones, but would be inefficient for that task. A fresh fragment of wet/dry with either machining oil or slightly soapy water would be a lot quicker. 1,200 grit to reduce worry about the apex and 320 grit followed by a microbevel from your stone to avoid dying of old age.

Inefficient is one word lol. The steel in those blades is hard. I should have started it on my other stone, a 1k oil stone but I didnt think they would be as hard as they are.

The FaTip Grande has a nicer feeling comb and looks cuter, but could benefit from an AC format blade…

An AC razor made by Fatip. I'm sold where do I click?

Does doing what you’ve described; especiall/specifically ATG; reduce irritation by raising the hair to be cut further out of their pores to allow their slicing to occur without the edge touching your skin?

Sort of but not exactly. The pressure applied by the cap creates a wave of skin ahead of the blade. The shallower the angle of edge to skin, the more pressure required to make the edge contact the skin, the larger that gap becomes and the taller that wave of skin will be. The action of that when shaving ATG is forcing the hairs to stand up as the wave travels. Get the angle/pressure combination just right and the base of each hair meets the edge at a steeper angle making them easier to cut.

Depth of cut is more about blade edge to skin. The steeper the angle, the more effective the cut. Balancing that very fine angle with a Gillette Yellow for me can be difficult because I cant feel the blade. This is why Polsilver is my top blade. They're smooth enough out of the wrapper and become considerably smoother by shave 4, but even at shave 20, I can still feel the blade so I know exactly how its shaving. Using a Gillette Yellow, its a bit of a guessing game.

The only drawback I've found using this technique is, if your technique isnt very good, with razors that have positive blade exposure you can bleed very easily. The upside of that is, the natural reaction we all have is to recoil away from pain. So if you make a mistake, the first thing we all do by instinct is to relax the pressure instantly. When you do, the blade lifts away from the skin.

The trouble spots mentioned might be handled with skin stretching techniques like those used by the straight razor crowd. Move the flesh on your jawline either cheekwards or neckwards and shave in a site where you can push deeply.

I skin stretch quite a bit. Over the areas where bone is closer to the surface, I generally shave very steep with very little pressure. Using my MMOC yesterday on my jawline and face and corners of my chin, the only thing contacting my skin was blade. No cap and no comb, just the bare edge. That blade has 5 or 6 shaves on it so its pretty easy to do at that stage. Try it with a new blade and your technique will become finely honed in seconds lol.

The gap becomes a place where the blade may flex and load some energy? I thought the gap was more a foe to the shallow shaver.

It could and I can see the rational behind the thought, but the angle I use my Grande with presents the edge at more of a right angle than an oblique one to the resistance its encountering so there is no lateral flex. If I drop my ideal angle even a tiny bit over my swirls, the unsupported very edge of the blade will flex, dig in and when it does cut, springs back into place and I'll have a weeper. If the cap was narrower and showed more blade reveal that would become more pronounced. If the cap was wider and showed less blade reveal, that would be lessened, but so would blade exposure.

That gap I create when using it however, I dont think has any impact on the outcome because my skin is flowing through it in a different way. Shaving steeply, forces the skin into and through the gap offered by a razor. That increases the angle of edge to skin dramatically.

This is why I believe many that use razors with a large blade gap like them, the gap makes them more effective. A byproduct of having the skin forced into and through that gap is the skin is also forced against the blade edge. Its a mechanical advantage that increases skin tension through the use of a fulcrum, the SB/OC. Thats why as gap increases, so does the rate of irritation to my skin. I'm essentially doing the same thing by increasing pressure on the cap, but the blade is at the leading edge of the gap instead of the trailing edge of the gap so my skin isnt being forced into the blades edge.

Give me a razor with generous blade exposure of a well supported blade with little blade gap and let me learn how to use it. The only work I need the razor to do is hold the blade securely so its stable and consistent and I'll do the rest.

I just don’t like the lag time between when I’m to-my-bones sure I know and then actually learning.

Think methodically. Try razors that have gap, an adjustable is perfect for that exercise. A Gillette Slim is also a highly rigid design because the designer had a fantastic idea. Instead of just simply punching the lather slots out, what would happen if we left them and let them support the blade by clamping it to the inside of the doors?

Well, whatdoyaknow. Its smooth and has no blade chatter. See how your skin deals with increasing blade gap. If it doesnt cause irritation after 3 passes and clean ups and feels as though you havent even shaved, you get along with blade gap.

The try differing blade exposures. You've used the R41 and the Fatip so you understand the difference between them.

You've used an AC razor so you understand the difference in inherent rigidity between them and DE blades.

All of that it seems you've already done and from the sounds of things you've pretty much decided on the AC format. Ask yourself how your shave could be better and think about what would fit that criteria. If you want a more efficient shave and have ruled out blade gap as an alternative, you'll need more blade exposure. You can have that with an RR Black Hawk...

I got to thinking about the Hawk last night and you saying it was inefficient. I remembered the face of the SB was flat. That would make it pretty easy to take a few thousands of an inch off with a stone. The face with the red line on it.

I'm not sure how deep the anodizing would be but it would likely remove some or all of it. Doing that would increase the blade exposure. The top edge of the SB could even be rounded over a bit.

When I get around to ordering one, if I find the same as you do I may just try that.

Increasing blade exposure by smoothing and rounding the SB. I think that would greatly enhance the efficiency of the Black Hawk, but I havent yet looked at or used one to know.

That square sharp cornered SB is the first thing that got my attention on that razor. Why they didnt round it off and make it smooth I cant understand, and when doing that, why not offer two or 3 different bases that each give a different blade exposure?

How no one has picked up on my idea of that, I'll never know. If I can think it, so can they lol.

I've been wondering why razor makers that offer interchangeable bases only make the bases with varying gaps. It would be just as easy I'd think to keep gap a constant and vary blade exposure slightly from negative to positive. Five bases all with the same gap but, for example, bases #1 and #2 having, respectively, .004" and .002" negative exposure. Base #3 neutral exposure, while bases #4 have .002" positive exposure and #5 .004" positive exposure, with maybe an option of .006" for those who like moar! lol

I'll take mine with an .010" 'G' (gap) and .004" '+X' (exposure) base, please. Then maybe step up to a .006" '+X' base.

That could be done just by varying the dimensions of the SB/OC. Basic geometry would stay the same and variable blade gaps could still be implemented. Its more work, R&D and machine time, but it would also be the only such design on the market.

I like that idea and its now mine lol, but, any razor designers/makers feel free to contact me in regard to royalties lol.

 

[Esox]

I thought the gap was more a foe to the shallow shaver.

I missed that part.

Gap to a shallow angle shaver means nothing because that blade gap is never used. DEvettes have unlimited blade gap and huge blade exposure.

OK, when I first read this, I thought that it couldn't possibly work, but unlike some people on who think their faces are too precious to think outside the box (not the denizens of this thread though), I'll try anything. Note that I used the polar opposite of a rigid razor, my dad's DEvette. Lots of unsupported flappy blade -- @Esox's favourite ;-)

After struggling with dad's DEvette for so many years, today I got by far the best shave ever with it. Last few times I used it I went super-shallow, which gave a great shave, but today I tried @Esox's suggestion.

I shaved super-shallow, but instead of a light touch, pushed the cap into my face, so I used a decent amount of pressure. Wow ... just wow! I literally could not feel the blade at all, or the fact that it was cutting, even when going straight to ATG on the second pass.

I still prefer steep angle shaving with pretty much every other DE I own, but for this razor, nothing works better.

Its all in the angle/pressure combination. The preferred angle of use is dictated by pressure applied.

Shaving at an extremely shallow angle with razors that offer a lot of blade exposure is more like using a straight razor than a DE or SE. When you think about the angle of blade to skin, its much the same as a straight razor in use. Think of the cap on a DE or SE razor as a training wheel on a straight razor and use it to feel the amount of pressure as a guide.

This is where the MMOC shines because unlike the other GEM razors, the MMOC has more than one flat surface on the cap.

Shave #1 on a fresh blade is done with the most pressure applied to the rear edge of the cap. As the blade wears in, my angle becomes steeper and I apply less pressure. By shave 4 I'm using the top most red line.

Shave 5-7 are done on this flat.

Shave 8 and later are done using just the edge itself with no cap contact to my skin and increasing pressure on the comb. By shave 12 the blade is worn to the point I can have ingrown hairs so its time to swap for a fresh one.

 

[thombrogan]

Inefficient is one word lol. The steel in those blades is hard. I should have started it on my other stone, a 1k oil stone but I didnt think they would be as hard as they are.

Aluminum oxide is about the softest abrasive I'd use on martensitic steel and am terrified of the below surface cracks it can generate in more coarse grits. It's aces in fine grit waterstones, polishing paper, and lapping film. Novaculite gets the job done, but I'm still not a fan.

An AC razor made by Fatip. I'm sold where do I click?

Right now, they're only a pre-order in one nation. My imagination

Sort of but not exactly. The pressure applied by the cap creates a wave of skin ahead of the blade. The shallower the angle of edge to skin, the more pressure required to make the edge contact the skin, the larger that gap becomes and the taller that wave of skin will be. The action of that when shaving ATG is forcing the hairs to stand up as the wave travels. Get the angle/pressure combination just right and the base of each hair meets the edge at a steeper angle making them easier to cut.

Ah-ha! Thank you for that explanation. As of last night, I'm now aware I haven't been supplying enough capwards pressure to make that happen and move the razor over my skin.

Worst reason for loading creatine ever.

Depth of cut is more about blade edge to skin. The steeper the angle, the more effective the cut.

Your statement has given incandescence to my murky thoughts. Cutting the hair steep and deep may cause shaving joy/BBS goodness, but one can do it with shallow/capwards pressure and reduce edge-to-skin contact or one can boop the safety comb and increase same contact.

Apologies for omitting blade comparisons - Doubt I'll be chasing down Polsiver SI blades is all. Bad enough I'm looking at Rakuten for Prolines.

The only drawback I've found using this technique is, if your technique isnt very good, with razors that have positive blade exposure you can bleed very easily. The upside of that is, the natural reaction we all have is to recoil away from pain. So if you make a mistake, the first thing we all do by instinct is to relax the pressure instantly. When you do, the blade lifts away from the skin.

That explains why I kept planting my Kai Pink into the edge of my jaw and base of my chin!

I skin stretch quite a bit. Over the areas where bone is closer to the surface, I generally shave very steep with very little pressure. Using my MMOC yesterday on my jawline and face and corners of my chin, the only thing contacting my skin was blade. No cap and no comb, just the bare edge. That blade has 5 or 6 shaves on it so its pretty easy to do at that stage. Try it with a new blade and your technique will become finely honed in seconds lol.

Figuring out something is wrong due to oucheroonis and figuring out how to still proceed without causing more aren't joined at the hip for me. I end up finding newer ways to injure myself… Sometimes, solutions are eventually found.

Give me a razor with generous blade exposure of a well supported blade with little blade gap and let me learn how to use it. The only work I need the razor to do is hold the blade securely so its stable and consistent and I'll do the rest.

Just when I think a gold plated SE2 is not your dream razor, you make the kind of statement that says it truly is your stubble bubby.

Think methodically. Try razors that have gap, an adjustable is perfect for that exercise. < snip / >

Well, whatdoyaknow. Its smooth and has no blade chatter. See how your skin deals with increasing blade gap. If it doesnt cause irritation after 3 passes and clean ups and feels as though you havent even shaved, you get along with blade gap.

The try differing blade exposures. You've used the R41 and the Fatip so you understand the difference between them.

You've used an AC razor so you understand the difference in inherent rigidity between them and DE blades.

All of that it seems you've already done and from the sounds of things you've pretty much decided on the AC format. Ask yourself how your shave could be better and think about what would fit that criteria. If you want a more efficient shave and have ruled out blade gap as an alternative, you'll need more blade exposure. You can have that with an RR Black Hawk...

There's two things I've got wrong and only the first is an ostensive error:

1. I got blade gap wrong. I thought it was between the blade and cap, not blade and baseplate.
2. I'm not good enough at shaving WTG/XTG to get a BBS finish with either or both techniques, so ATG seemed the best method at this point.

Increasing blade exposure by smoothing and rounding the SB. I think that would greatly enhance the efficiency of the Black Hawk, but I havent yet looked at or used one to know.

The corners/edges of the safety bar are chamfered and comfortable. It lets me shave as steep as my fledgling skill level needs (unlike my Maggards V3A or Yaqi Double Open Comb heads), so it might already have decent blade exposure (but as I got gap all reversed, please apply heavy discounts to this opinion).

That square sharp cornered SB is the first thing that got my attention on that razor. Why they didnt round it off and make it smooth I cant understand, and when doing that, why not offer two or 3 different bases that each give a different blade exposure?

How no one has picked up on my idea of that, I'll never know. If I can think it, so can they lol.

Going to bet SE razors spend more time in warehouse than flying out the doors in even the best of times.

OTOH, Italian Barber is offering a choice of baseplate for the RazoRock Hawk V3…

I missed that part.

Gap to a shallow angle shaver means nothing because that blade gap is never used. DEvettes have unlimited blade gap and huge blade exposure.

Yeah…. I had that backwards and then read this post from @rudyt:

If you look at the animation below, you'll see that the blade in an adjustable does not move or change angle with respect to the cap, so no difference to a cap rider.
I'm not saying anyone is doing it wrong. I'm just pointing out that (a) steep shaving is not scraping, and (b) many people who think they are cap riders are in reality riding the guard as well.

Its all in the angle/pressure combination. The preferred angle of use is dictated by pressure applied.

Shaving at an extremely shallow angle with razors that offer a lot of blade exposure is more like using a straight razor than a DE or SE. When you think about the angle of blade to skin, its much the same as a straight razor in use. Think of the cap on a DE or SE razor as a training wheel on a straight razor and use it to feel the amount of pressure as a guide.

Getting a handle on knowing I don't yet have a handle on that pressure made last night my first time moving from the foyer to the training hall. Not even a white belt yet, just off the street in sweats and terrified I'll get pressured into a long term contract.

This is where the MMOC shines because unlike the other GEM razors, the MMOC has more than one flat surface on the cap

Based on your two posts, if I'm in any way understanding you correctly, it seems everything in this shallow-angled shaving as taught by you and rabidus is all about finding the most skin-friendly way to shave steep.

With a fresh, stainless PTFE blade in your MMOC, you lay the head flat on your skin and press down hard until the skin surrounding the blade steeply presents itself. In areas with less compressive tissues; such as the jawline; you use a steeper angle to get a close, long-lasting shave with minimal-to-no skin irritation. As wear, corrosion, or climate change causes the GEM's edge to lose its prior charm, steep angled shaving is again employed.

That noted; whether so wrong as to cause the Sun to collapse on itself as a defense from my stupidity or miraculously correct; mastering shallow shaving with much more capward pressure is my goal.

 

[TinyT]

I'm serious. Not only is this the most detailed inquiry into blade angle I've read, it's also the clearest. In a word, illuminating. Glad I'm along for the ride.

 

[AimlessWanderer]

Here's my thoughts on steep/shallow angle shaving, it depends on your growth angle. It makes perfect sense to me that @Cal prefers steep angle shaving, as his skin grows almost parallel to the skin. Therefore, the steeper the angle he shaves at, the more likely he is to get the blade perpendicular to the stubble - which is where you are cutting through the shortest distance, and therefore get less tugging. Likewise on your swirls, Mike. To be so pronounced, and so problematic, I assume they lay fairly flat.

In the same vain, someone whose growth angle is more perpendicular, might benefit more from a shallower angle. Again, more perpendicular to the hair, less thickness to cut through, and less resistance/tugging.

I stick to neutral angle. My beard is frizzy to the extent that my beard map seems to change periodically, and the angle one hair leaves my face, might be totally different to its neighbours.

 

[Esox]

Your statement has given incandescence to my murky thoughts. Cutting the hair steep and deep may cause shaving joy/BBS goodness, but one can do it with shallow/capwards pressure and reduce edge-to-skin contact or one can boop the safety comb and increase same contact.

The difference is in the angle of edge to skin. Shaving steeply puts that edge at a steep angle in regards to the skin its shaving. That imparts a scraping action. Shaving shallow on the other hand doesnt induce that scraping effect as much and the blade slices through the hair instead of scraping if from the skin.

This was my issue with Feather blades for over a year. They really are incredibly sharp out of the wrapper and skin is a very pliable and supple medium. Throw sensitive skin into the mix and the very fine line of balancing shaving angle and pressure applied becomes finer than I can manage. My revelatory solution to that was discovering that some soaps are better for my skin than others. By "better" I mean they make my skin more supple and forgiving of those incredibly sharp blades.

My best DE shaves to date are with my Grande, a fresh Feather and Wickham 1912 soap. Using that combination virtually my entire shave is done neutral to steep, with 3 full passes, N-S, S-N and ATG, plus a clean up left side jawline with greatly increased pressure. The only place I shave shallow is over my swirls, but even then, the most difficult area is half the size it normally is. The right soaps for my skin make a dramatic improvement in my shaves.

That explains why I kept planting my Kai Pink into the edge of my jaw and base of my chin!

Figuring out something is wrong due to oucheroonis and figuring out how to still proceed without causing more aren't joined at the hip for me. I end up finding newer ways to injure myself… Sometimes, solutions are eventually found.

Since you've gone through at least most of my journal, you've likely found that I bled my first 7 shaves using my Grande, always in the same place, the right corner of my mouth. I dont remember if I posted the solution to that in here or not. I likely have, but I may as well again. The solution was as simple as shaving in a slightly different direction.

The other thing I've learned is that no matter how little pressure you apply to your skin, there will be a 'wave' of skin ahead of the blade. It may be very small and quite likely is judging from the size of weepers that are occurring, but they can happen because that 'wave' has no distance to propagate into. The more pressure used, the taller that wave ahead of the blade becomes and the larger, and deeper, that weeper could be.

Think about the below pic and how waves propagate. The razor starting to move top left instigating that movement. The blue and/or red waves would be your skin surface ahead of the razor from the pressure applied. When those waves can no longer travel, they bunch up, you shave into and over them and plane off the tops creating a weeper.

This is why I was always getting a weeper right side of my mouth. The same spot every time. I'd be stroking from my ear towards the corner of my mouth. A wave of skin ahead of the razor and blade, and when I'd get to the corner of my mouth, that wave had no where to go, bunched up and I'd plane the top of that wave off just a tiny bit and get a weeper.

To overcome that I stretch my skin tighter and shave in a slightly different direction. Either slightly up or slightly down when I get to the same spot, but never straight into the corner of my mouth anymore. That wave needs a direction to travel in, so I gave it one. No more weeper there.

I can get weepers over my swirls as well with too steep an angle using my Grande. The stubble there can be difficult to cut and its quite dense. The Grande has generous blade exposure and when using a steep angle over those two areas I can actually feel the blade edge flexing against the resistance. The solution to that for me was a shallower angle so the blade edge would meet that resistance more squarely forcing the blade into the stubble instead of imparting flex to the edge. In essence, using a shallower angle to make the blade edge more rigid.

Shaving shallow over those two areas now with the same blade that would give me a weeper with a steep angle, wipes that stubble off like it was never there with a shallower angle.

Hydrodynamics and wave propagation in relation to shaving, who'd a thunk it! lol

That could be a reason you bleed too.

Just when I think a gold plated SE2 is not your dream razor, you make the kind of statement that says it truly is your stubble bubby.

Dont think the SE 2 base isnt on my mind, it is. I'm quite sure I could use it effectively. I'm also quite sure I could use the SE 1 at least as effectively as my MMOC and possibly more so. The SE 1 may even better a slightly easier shave than using my MMOC. I'm not sure I can say that about the SE 2 though.

There's two things I've got wrong and only the first is an ostensive error:

1. I got blade gap wrong. I thought it was between the blade and cap, not blade and baseplate.

Blade gap is measured between the green lines.

Fatip Grande left, NEW SC right.



The NEW SC has .023" gap. The Fatip has....less. That blade gap is by design and is a constant that could only be adjusted larger with shims.

The blade gap thats created by applying pressure to the cap is constantly changing so impossible to measure.

2. I'm not good enough at shaving WTG/XTG to get a BBS finish with either or both techniques, so ATG seemed the best method at this point.

Buff. Use less pressure and short very quick strokes. Buff like you're polishing a a large area in smaller sections. I once counted the buffing strokes to BBS my face and neck with my SC. On that shave, with that amount of growth and that blade, it took me 140 strokes. Each stroke was, at most, 2"s long. I made a joke about that once by saying that if I made a video of how I shave, you wouldnt even see my hand moving, it would just be a blur.

When I buff ATG my strokes are short and very fast. The razor never leaves my skin and I dont stop buffing until I get no feedback from the razor. Naturally, I didnt start out that fast but I learned quickly once I found the correct angle/pressure combination. Also bear in mind that I started shaving when I was 15 with my fathers DE. I already knew how, it just took some time to wake it back up again.

The corners/edges of the safety bar are chamfered and comfortable. It lets me shave as steep as my fledgling skill level needs (unlike my Maggards V3A or Yaqi Double Open Comb heads), so it might already have decent blade exposure (but as I got gap all reversed, please apply heavy discounts to this opinion).

The other drawback to the Black Hawk that I dont personally like, is the lack of weight. I thought of my Grande as being the perfect weight, but it could be heavier. Weight in motion equates to momentum. Momentum is my friend when it comes to razors. That can be overcome though.

OTOH, Italian Barber is offering a choice of baseplate for the RazoRock Hawk V3…

I wonder what the choices will be. I'm betting they change gap or maybe an OC...

Yeah…. I had that backwards and then read this post from @rudyt:

Increasing blade gap also increases blade exposure.

My Slim on 1.

On 9.

I use mine on 7-9. With that amount of blade exposure its the only way I can use it effectively and I use it at a neutral angle. My skin pays a price for that but with the right blade its a pretty good shave.

Based on your two posts, if I'm in any way understanding you correctly, it seems everything in this shallow-angled shaving as taught by you and rabidus is all about finding the most skin-friendly way to shave steep.

With a fresh, stainless PTFE blade in your MMOC, you lay the head flat on your skin and press down hard until the skin surrounding the blade steeply presents itself. In areas with less compressive tissues; such as the jawline; you use a steeper angle to get a close, long-lasting shave with minimal-to-no skin irritation. As wear, corrosion, or climate change causes the GEM's edge to lose its prior charm, steep angled shaving is again employed.

That noted; whether so wrong as to cause the Sun to collapse on itself as a defense from my stupidity or miraculously correct; mastering shallow shaving with much more capward pressure is my goal.

Its the best way I've found to shave as comfortably as possible with the least amount of damage done to my skin.

The skin does rise to meet the edge at a steep angle, but the angle of edge to skin is very shallow. If I get it just right, the edge of the blade skims over the surface of my skin like an air hockey puck on a very thin layer of very slick lather almost parallel to my skin. The blade itself might be a 30° angle, but the angle on the honed edge is shallower. Its that angle thats the important one. When I find that angle, assuming proper pressure applied to let me find that angle, I feel nothing. Absolutely nothing. My post shave feel is like I havent even shaved, yet I shave a shave so close I can easily feel even a slight breeze.

Because DE blades are so thin they're not stable enough to be as accurate as I am and having a shave that good is a bit hit and miss with a DE. All of my DE shaves are consistently very good to great, but they all arent truly outstanding. The thicker more stable SE blade lets me accomplish that much easier simply because the blade is more stable making it easier to control more accurately.

On my last shave with my MMOC, shaving steep, no cap and no comb in use, only the edge, on 48 hours growth, directly S-N on the face of my chin, I did stress the blade enough that it skipped. I was trying to shave to fast and the blade didnt like it. The thicker AC blade, I believe, will allow me to shave faster than the GEM blade does because they're thicker and more stable again.

When you can use an MMOC beyond its capabilities, you're really getting somewhere! lol

 

[Esox]

Here's my thoughts on steep/shallow angle shaving, it depends on your growth angle. It makes perfect sense to me that @Cal prefers steep angle shaving, as his skin grows almost parallel to the skin. Therefore, the steeper the angle he shaves at, the more likely he is to get the blade perpendicular to the stubble - which is where you are cutting through the shortest distance, and therefore get less tugging. Likewise on your swirls, Mike. To be so pronounced, and so problematic, I assume they lay fairly flat.

Most of my growth Al, lays fairly flat. It only grows straight out at the corners of my chin and directly under my chin. Maybe at a 45° on the face of my chin pointing down, which is why the MMOC skipped there last shave. I was imparting maximum stress to the edge.

Because my growth lays mostly flat is one reason I shave so shallow. By pushing the razor into my skin and creating the wave of skin ahead of the blade, as the skin rises under tension, the hairs stand up and away from my skin making them easier to cut.

Thats why sometimes, with lets say a Derby Extra blade and a lack of pressure applied, the blade can skip over some of my growth shaving N-S XTG. When the edge encounters the hairs, they can roll over or be pushed before being cut.

That was greatly exaggerated on my first shave with the R41. I used a Derby Extra blade as I always do in a new razor and it skipped on my first stroke N-S WTG.

R41, Common Bar handle - Derby Extra.

Stirling Island Man.

Maggard synthetic.

49 hours since last shave.

Starting with the typical 3 pass shave, first pass N-S WTG/XTG. Second pass S-N XTG/ATG. Third pass and all cleanups done directly ATG.

Like I said in my first shave with my Grande and a Derby Extra, as soon as the razor moved I knew.

It tugged, considerably. No effortless full length strokes on this first pass. Two strokes over my cheek to my jawline and 4 strokes from my jawline to the base of my neck. Interestingly, as soon as the blade encountered my swirls, it skipped right over them, even leaving lather in the stubble. An adjustment in technique solved that however. I went a little shallower and increased the pressure considerably. That ended the skipping and minimized the tugging.

Its the same idea as tree topping arm hair 1/4" above your skin with a straight razor. If you feel any tug before the cut, the hair and the skin is moving. Thats also why shaving directly ATG is so comfortable and easy for me. A blade that slices through the hair with the least resistance, with enough blade support that it doesnt flex and the right angle/pressure combination its one simple stroke to BBS that area. One stroke. Not 3 or 30, one. The difference that can make on your skin is quite noticeable.

The hardest part of that I've found lately was shaving directly ATG. I remember Jim once said that his map seemed like it was changing. I think mine has slightly as well over the last 2-3 years.

 

[AimlessWanderer]

You know, because of your almost "plunge routing" technique, and the skin ripple effect it leads to, it's not easy to get my head around whether the effective angle of blade to skin would be shallow or steep... I know it's shallow to where your skin would be if you didn't deflect it so much, but because you do, the effective angle may be a lot steeper

 

[Esox]

You know, because of your almost "plunge routing" technique, and the skin ripple effect it leads to, it's not easy to get my head around whether the effective angle of blade to skin would be shallow or steep... I know it's shallow to where your skin would be if you didn't deflect it so much, but because you do, the effective angle may be a lot steeper

If I shave too quickly, I can move the razor faster than my skin undulates against it. When that happens I start to feel the blade. The faster I shave the more blade I can feel. In that case, where I do feel the blade from shaving to quickly, yes, the angle is to steep. The ideal, I'm guessing, would be to have the cutting edge of the blade at about a 10° to my skin.

It's quite a balancing act when trying to understand, but once muscle memory takes over it becomes second nature. I can tell so intuitively now that just holding the razor in my fingers I'll know if I'm at the right angle or not. Its like casting a fly line, once you get it right and understand the feeling, it becomes very easy to duplicate. Also like fly casting, I dont move my wrist, my wrist is locked. All movement is from my arm with a little bit at my elbow.

i know Al, its a totally foreign concept to you and the way you shave is to me lol.

 

[AimlessWanderer]

i know Al, its a totally foreign concept to you and the way you shave is to me lol.

You're not wrong there, mate

I tried all manner of everything when I first started with DE. I didn't have a computer back in '91/92 (approaching 2/3 of my life ago), and even if I had, there wouldn't have been much help on the other end My dad had a full beard (and always cut himself when he shaved anyway), and all the friends used cartridges, disposables, or electric.

I just had to figure it out myself.

I tried steep, shallow, fast, slow, high pressure, low pressure, and every profanity my apprenticeship in an engineering company was affording me with. Old blades, new blades, stropped blades, two blades (!), scrubbing actions, foam, gel, hot, cold, anything I could think of. Eventually, I figured out what gave me the best results with the least amount of pain, and it refined itself over time.

Occasionally if I'm chasing perfection, I'll slip back into a couple of the old ways, such as doing the last pass/touch up really slowly with just cold water, no lather. One splash, one shaving stroke, about 1/8" to 1/4" per second. Splash and repeat. Crabbing the head was another, planting one corner of the comb and pivoting the head about it, then planting the other corner and pivoting back. Sometimes that comes off as more of a slalom action, and it can be very useful under the jaw on the right side, where there appears to be multiple grain flows in the same area.

Most of the time though, I'll just settle for whatever that day's passes have produced. It's still far better than anything a cartridge can give me.

 

[Esox]

Eventually, I figured out what gave me the best results with the least amount of pain, and it refined itself over time.

That right there is the key to it all. Finding what works.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Eventually, I figured out what gave me the best results with the least amount of pain, and refined it over time.

Occasionally I'm chasing perfection. Most of the time though, I'll just settle for whatever that day's pass and touch ups have produced.

With just a little thieving and a little editing...

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[thombrogan]

The difference is in the angle of edge to skin.

Okay, so the more the blade is like a scythe moving over the surface versus a utility blade removing a sticker from a mirror, the better the condition of the skin will be.

This was my issue with Feather blades for over a year. They really are incredibly sharp out of the wrapper and skin is a very pliable and supple medium. Throw sensitive skin into the mix and the very fine line of balancing shaving angle and pressure applied becomes finer than I can manage. My revelatory solution to that was discovering that some soaps are better for my skin than others. By "better" I mean they make my skin more supple and forgiving of those incredibly sharp blades.

These sorts of 'eureka!' moments temporarily cause me to question this obsession. I can wait out the lucidity and soldier deeper into the warren.

They started with my R41. ATG was scary with hand-lathered Irish Spring. Now I've got überlather recipes and experience making them work and a FaTip Grande and a RazoRock BlackHawk v2 and it's all because I wanted BBS on the daily…

My best DE shaves to date are with my Grande, a fresh Feather and Wickham 1912 soap. Using that combination virtually my entire shave is done neutral to steep, with 3 full passes, N-S, S-N and ATG, plus a clean up left side jawline with greatly increased pressure. The only place I shave shallow is over my swirls, but even then, the most difficult area is half the size it normally is. The right soaps for my skin make a dramatic improvement in my shaves.

It's amazing what the right lather does for one's shave and how improbable it seems until you've found it, profited from it, tried again with something else, and missed the other soap/cream greatly.

You and some others have had me wondering how many issues Wickham 1912 might solve for me, but @ShaverAZ's Cremogena Plus and my KMF/Aveeno überlathers (identical to Cremogena Plus) have me going for the foreseeable future.

Since you've gone through at least most of my journal, you've likely found that I bled my first 7 shaves using my Grande, always in the same place, the right corner of my mouth.
< /snip >
That could be a reason you bleed too.

It's not bleeding, it's DiGiorno! Er, it's close - just raw, irritated skin. Excessive pressure can/should/always will be blamed, but I'm thinking excessive, full-length passes meant to replace buffing are the main offender. Will find out soon.

Dont think the SE 2 base isnt on my mind, it is. I'm quite sure I could use it effectively. I'm also quite sure I could use the SE 1 at least as effectively as my MMOC and possibly more so. The SE 1 may even better a slightly easier shave than using my MMOC. I'm not sure I can say that about the SE 2 though.

I didn't say "easier" and, until now, you didn't, either. It met the criteria you listed after mentioning you eventually prevailed over the MMOC.

The blade gap thats created by applying pressure to the cap is constantly changing so impossible to measure.

And, so long as planing doesn't occur, it's an acceptable uncertainty and you've got a contingent plan when planing happens.

Buff. Use less pressure and short very quick strokes. Buff like you're polishing a a large area in smaller sections.

When I buff ATG my strokes are short and very fast. The razor never leaves my skin and I dont stop buffing until I get no feedback from the razor.

Doing this next time razor is in my hands and my beard region is latherfied. Thank you.

The other drawback to the Black Hawk that I dont personally like, is the lack of weight. I thought of my Grande as being the perfect weight, but it could be heavier. Weight in motion equates to momentum. Momentum is my friend when it comes to razors. That can be overcome though.

Agreed, it's light. Still cuts great despite lack of significant inertia. Will see how many of the words get eaten when buffing-only is employed. And I'm not implying everyone should share my fanboi wonderment over the RazoRock BlackHawk v2 as I've got a V3 on pre-order and am believing a gold plated ATT SE2 is everything you're seeking.

I wonder what the choices will be. I'm betting they change gap or maybe an OC...

OC is an option. As a comb-booper, I prefer a good open comb (or superlatively comfortable FaTip open comb)

Its the best way I've found to shave as comfortably as possible with the least amount of damage done to my skin.

And that's why I want to steal everything that's not nailed down in your techniques and rabidus' for my own, nefarious devices.

On my last shave with my MMOC, shaving steep, no cap and no comb in use, only the edge, on 48 hours growth, directly S-N on the face of my chin, I did stress the blade enough that it skipped. I was trying to shave to fast and the blade didnt like it. The thicker AC blade, I believe, will allow me to shave faster than the GEM blade does because they're thicker and more stable again.

When you can use an MMOC beyond its capabilities, you're really getting somewhere! lol

I didn't think I could be scared away from a safety razor, but you're doing a great job!

I appreciate this discussion. Thank you, again

 

[Esox]

Okay, so the more the blade is like a scythe moving over the surface versus a utility blade removing a sticker from a mirror, the better the condition of the skin will be.

The better the condition my skin will be. Only you can judge whats best for yours.

They started with my R41. ATG was scary with hand-lathered Irish Spring.

ATG shaving with an R41 is just plain scary when you compare the same shave but use a Fatip. I can only use the R41 effectively with a fresh Feather blade. Normally in a 3 pass shave, the first pass is N-S, WTG/XTG. Second pass S-N, ATG/XTG. Third pass entirely ATG. Using my R41 and a fresh Feather I had to modify my second pass to entirely XTG because I couldnt shave ATG that soon around my mouth or on my chin. My cheeks were no problem, but the growth there is much less dense.

R40 what?

You and some others have had me wondering how many issues Wickham 1912 might solve for me, but @ShaverAZ's Cremogena Plus and my KMF/Aveeno überlathers (identical to Cremogena Plus) have me going for the foreseeable future.

When it came to trying new soaps, for me it was a desire just to try something different. I decided on a classic thats well respected by long term members and that lead me to PdP #63. I certainly do not regret trying that soap.

PdP sort of lit a fire in me by showing me what I was missing out on, so I picked the most popular and talked about soap of the time, Wholly Kaw Donkey Milk, and ordered a tub. It was as great as they all said, but I still wanted a few more soaps in a rotation of scents that all had similar performance.

What brought me to Wickham was Jim's @Chan Eil Whiskers, respect for it. He had tried many different soaps and I studied on his experiences pretty thoroughly at the time. Wickham stood above the rest for him so thats what I went with. I most certainly do not regret trying them either.

Wickham lead me to CRS along with CRS winning the B&B award for best cream. Sadly, we lost that review done by a moderator with the latest software upgrade.

After using them all, theres only one I wont buy again and have bought more Wickham and CRS. They both perform, as does PdP, at the same level of WK while being half as expensive as well as being larger amounts. Sure WK performs great, the scent of my Rose is lacking but thats a minor quibble really. $40CAD for a 114g tub to me isnt a minor quibble. I can buy a 165g tub of CRS for under $15CAD, shipped! A 140g tub of Wickham for $22CAD. PdP was the same price and its a very hard quad milled soap.

Unless I really wanted a particular WK scent, why would I buy more.

For the money, Stirling is hard to beat, but CRS beats it and for a little bit more money, Wickham is just in another league.

It met the criteria you listed after mentioning you eventually prevailed over the MMOC.

It does yep lol. Its also daunting and intimidating in a way my MMOC isnt. If I ever get around to ordering an SE1, I will most likely at least try an SE2 base. I'd have too lol.



The MMOC demands respect. Once you have the basics down and understand how to use an SE, you'd be fine to start learning to use one. They do require dedication and perseverance however. After my first shave with it, I put it down for months. I just wasnt ready. When I decided to learn it, I dedicated myself to it, accepted that I would pay a price and just went with it. I'm glad I did.