Washita Thread. Show off, discuss, etc.

[Empire straights]

~2.27. It is dirty though. Need to retest once cleaned up. View attachment 1124004View attachment 1124005View attachment 1124006View attachment 1124007

This looks exactly like mine. I wish i knew what grade mine is because id go hunt down 10 more for my progeny. I guess buying every one i can is a solid approach that's bound to pay dividends!

Them Smith's produce just the right amount of tooth that I am looking for on edges used on protein, butcher, hunting and fillet knifes.

Agreed. I got one i just gave my son and he doesn't have any trouble getting a blade to perk up a bunch with 4 or 5 strokes. It's a solid stone, not a real washita but amazing for what it is.

 

[Empire straights]

Looks

Stone from post 106 in this thread. I need to retest the sg to see what effect it hadView attachment 1151750

Looks like same parking af one of my coticules. Beautiful rock.

 

[cotedupy]

Why Washitas? What makes them different? Are they different?

I'm sure other people here will have looked at them under a microscope before, but until today I hadn't, as I only have one atm and it was out on loan. I was amazed by what it looked like (yes, this kind of thing amazes me).

Novaculites have a tightly and evenly grained, homogenous structure. The only things I've looked at that really could be confused with them are a couple of very hard / fine jnats and coticules. Here's the Ur-Novaculite, a Translucent Ark:

Next, an Idwal. This stone is notably coarser, as you can see, but we're largely on the same page. This isn't as even as the ark, but the stones are both quite homogenous and 'small-grained' in comparison with similar images of non-novaculites:

This is an old Turkish Oilstone. If you ignore the cracks and inclusions in most Turkish stones, the base structure of a Turkish is very even. More similar to the Ark than the Idwal in that regard. The extraordinary speed of Turkish stones comes from two things I think; the particles themselves are larger than the Translucent, and they're not a tightly fused together. Turkish stones are relatively soft and porous for novaculites:

Now when I came to looking at my Washita, I was kinda expecting it to look like the Turkish; the two stones finish at a similar grit, the Turkish is faster, and the Washita has more range at the low end, but they're fairly similar in use and effect. I was not expecting this:

Washitas are highly heterogenous in comparison to other novaculites. The kinda dirty yellow areas that form most of the surface are 'normal' fused novaculite. The white and black areas are less densely fused and include larger particles and bits of other stuff. In parts veering to areas that we probably wouldn't consider to be novaculite; the composition of the stone is much less pure.

And I think it probably answers our initial questions quite neatly, and explains the extraordinary range that the stones have. You can change the way you use one to manipulate the irregularity of the structure, making it work in different ways. There's an awful lot going on in a Washita.

[As I said - I'm sure lots of others have done or seen this before, but I found it interesting!]

 

[cotedupy]

I logged on to the Facebook for the first time in a few months today, so that Mr. Zuckerberg could update his information about me and continue to influence my voting habits. As an added bonus I was rather pleased to find that someone had posted this on an Aussie woodworking tool group a few hours previously.

Looks to be a near mint 5x2x1 Lily White for the equivalent of about $55 US. Which I didn't think too bad, so snaffled up .

Fingers crossed Zuck’s algorithm is as good at finding me more of the same as it is at suggesting I buy further mattresses after I’ve just bought a mattress.

 

[cotedupy]

Might one of the collectors/experts here answer me a question about the timelines of different grades of Washitas...

I've seen adverts from the late 40s suggesting that by this time Norton were selling only LW and No.1. Is that correct?

When did earlier designations fall by the wayside? Did things like RR, WWD, EQ, not make the transition from Pike to Norton? And what about No.2? I've seen them talked about, but I don't think I've ever seen a picture of one...

(Apologies if all that has been answered elsewhere previously).

 

[RobbyC]

Might one of the collectors/experts here answer me a question about the timelines of different grades of Washitas...

I've seen adverts from the late 40s suggesting that by this time Norton were selling only LW and No.1. Is that correct?

When did earlier designations fall by the wayside? Did things like RR, WWD, EQ, not make the transition from Pike to Norton? And what about No.2? I've seen them talked about, but I don't think I've ever seen a picture of one...

(Apologies if all that has been answered elsewhere previously).

Not sure of when they stopped using them, but the 1905 publication Pike Oilstones : how to select and use them mentions all of the qualities you mentioned if you hadn’t already seen that

The red label pike washita I posted a few weeks back is a labelled no 2 according to a marples catalogue I found, which makes sense with the fracture lines in it etc.

 

[RobbyC]

For an 8” stone the price was as below:
Lily white - 81 pence (6/9)
No 1 quality - 54 pence (4/6)
No 2 quality 51 pence (4/3)

So quite a step up to lily white quality

An 8 x 2” fine carborundum was 63 pence (5/3)

That was a 1928 catalogue and using an inflation calculator comes to just under £22 GBP in 2021 for an 8” LW

Picture below is from a Sears, Roebuck and Co catalogue from 1902 and it includes just lily white and standard washitas.

 

[timwcic]

When did earlier designations fall by the wayside? Did things like RR, WWD, EQ, not make the transition from Pike to Norton?

I know RR, but what are WWD and EQ?

Norton purchased Pike in 1932 according the this label chart

 

[timwcic]

My latest haul of 1 inch thick Washita’s are out of the dip and cleaned up. And they cleaned up nicely. Assortment of colors and lenghts. The whites seem to be of especially high quality. The boxes with lids look to be of Pike/Norton construction. One before picture and two cleaned

 

[RobbyC]

And one more for good measure, a 1917 catalogue from W.M Frankfurth Hardware Co,
Prices for 8” stones
Lily white $1
Rosy red $1
Extra $0.95
No 1 $0.65
Turkey $2.00

Understandable why washitas ended up replacing turkeys!

 

[RobbyC]

I know RR, but what are WWD and EQ?

Norton purchased Pike in 1932 according the this label chart

View attachment 1314157

Woodworkers delight and Extra Quality I’m assuming

 

[timwcic]

Thanks @RobbyC I don’t know how I forget that being I have one

 

[Empire straights]

I have a hard/ fine suspected lww and i know that there are coarse/soft lww, but were there ever soft/fine? Like with small abrasive particles but still friable?

 

[cotedupy]

Understandable why washitas ended up replacing turkeys!

The choice is yours... on the one hand you could select the dirty foreign stone that we couldn’t be bothered to put a label on.

Or, for half the price, choose the guaranteed quality of PIKE brand Washita Oilstones. For they are known to be the fastest cutting! The slowest wearing! Universally admired by carpenters and woodwoorkers everywhere, and assured to be free from foreign inclusions...

 

[cotedupy]

Thanks @RobbyC and @timwcic for the info above! (And yes that’s what I meant with my slightly lazy abbreviations). It sounds like perhaps after the takeover they dispensed with the additional quality differentiations that Pike used.

Here’s a 1946 advert, which lists only LW and No.1. Interestingly the price jump between the two at that point doesn’t seem massive:

 

[cotedupy]

My 5x2 Lily White I mentioned above just arrived, and turned out to be a nice score I think...

It’s effectively unused, NOS with all the original packaging.

By this point also there appears to be no hard/soft/fast &c. specification. No end labels on the stone, and just this on the box:

The surface of the stone is interesting; it’s completely white, and almost like they’ve applied some kind of light chalky paint to it. Though possibly that’s how they look when newly cut and never used with oil:

I rather like the little booklet recommending further Norton products, and offering free of charge to send me such educational classics as ‘Sandpaper. Its How and Why.’

Sorry for all the pictures, but I figured they might be of interest here. One last family shot for good measure...

I guess the question is - given I have a very good Washita already that I use a fair bit - do I even try this out, or stray into proper collector territory, and leave it pristine...?

(And for all you SG geeks - 2.31).

 

[cotedupy]

(Though I didn’t weigh it in water, so is that not correct then...?)

 

[Empire straights]

My 5x2 Lily White I mentioned above just arrived, and turned out to be a nice score I think...

It’s effectively unused, NOS with all the original packaging.

View attachment 1314393
View attachment 1314396

View attachment 1314394

View attachment 1314398

By this point also there appears to be no hard/soft/fast &c. specification. No end labels on the stone, and just this on the box:

View attachment 1314395

The surface of the stone is interesting; it’s completely white, and almost like they’ve applied some kind of light chalky paint to it. Though possibly that’s how they look when newly cut and never used with oil:

View attachment 1314397

I rather like the little booklet recommending further Norton products, and offering free of charge to send me such educational classics as ‘Sandpaper. Its How and Why.’

View attachment 1314399

Sorry for all the pictures, but I figured they might be of interest here. One last family shot for good measure...

View attachment 1314400

I guess the question is - given I have a very good Washita already that I use a fair bit - do I even try this out, or stray into proper collector territory, and leave it pristine...?

(And for all you SG geeks - 2.31).

Ive been trying to hard to find a confirmed lily white, even if it didn't have label, just to have one i have a suspected gard one but id like a confirmed hard/fine and a coarse/ soft hand in hand if for nothing else but to test them. I never check facebook marketplace, i hate facebook.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I don't think there is a Hard fine (may be wrong though). Medium Hard/Fine is the hardest I think.

They seem to be less desirable than the Soft/Fast cutting, so you might get a decent deal on eBay if you come across one that's pretty rough but with a Med Hard end label still legible (decent as in <$140), but they're still lily whites, so unless you become a second Tim, you might be in for a wait if you're looking for a "steal" (sub $50) find.

Soft ones I've seen break $200 a lot. They're almost not worth targeting. Buy ones missing the side label (or not showing it in the listings) until you get lucky. A soft vs Medium Hard washita are two very distinct stones.

To answer your question... I don't think so.

I'd have to double check, but I've seen for sure two grades:

Fine / Medium Hard grit

and

Soft / Fast Cutting Grit.

I BELIEVE I've also seen "Soft : Medium Coarse cutting grit", but I think that was an era/label difference and is identical to the Soft/Fast Cutting Grit", just a different decade.

I also vaguely remember a straight "Medium grit", but again, I think that was a Medium Hard from a different era.

 

[cotedupy]

I don't think there is a Hard fine (may be wrong though). Medium Hard/Fine is the hardest I think.

They seem to be less desirable than the Soft/Fast cutting, so you might get a decent deal on eBay if you come across one that's pretty rough but with a Med Hard end label still legible (decent as in <$140), but they're still lily whites, so unless you become a second Tim, you might be in for a wait if you're looking for a "steal" (sub $50) find.

Soft ones I've seen break $200 a lot. They're almost not worth targeting. Buy ones missing the side label (or not showing it in the listings) until you get lucky. A soft vs Medium Hard washita are two very distinct stones.

To answer your question... I don't think so.

I'd have to double check, but I've seen for sure two grades:

Fine / Medium Hard grit

and

Soft / Fast Cutting Grit.

I BELIEVE I've also seen "Soft : Medium Coarse cutting grit", but I think that was an era/label difference and is identical to the Soft/Fast Cutting Grit", just a different decade.

I also vaguely remember a straight "Medium grit", but again, I think that was a Medium Hard from a different era.

Have you seen a Norton era LW with these end label classifications? Or was it just a Pike thing? Because my one above certainly doesn't, but larger maybe bench stone ones did...?