Tips For Finishing on Softer Jnats?

[Gamma]

FWIW, steel hardness has nothing to do with choosing stone hardness. They're not related outside of old wives tales.
Edge type is the determining factor. If you want a convex bevel, use a softer stone.
A harder stone will provide a more accurate V shape, with a thinner edge width.
It's geometry, and physics, no purple kool aid.
File that noise with the honing on distilled water story.

Anyway,

The OPs stone does not say Akapin to me.
I don't see anything that indicates Tenjyou Suita.
It could be either but given my experiences I would not lean that way.

I am not convinced the Maruka stamp is legit. Different topic for another day though.
Typically, Akapin would not bear a Maruka stamp, fwiw...

It looks to be dry and somewhat porous.
If it is very muddy when lapping and autoslurrying, then yes it's soft.
It could just very well be from Tomae, but a softer seam. There's a few in there and some are muddy/softer.
There are also stones that do not have an official name/seam/strata...I forget the Japanese name but the translation is 'plum fields'. Could be one of those.

If the stone is just releasing slurry and getting muddy without working for it, one hope to get a shaving edge is to do a few strokes and rinse. Don't make any slurry, use the stone water only and keep pressure very light. maybe try lapping the stone on 1k w/d paper. Might help. Depends on how the stone reacts to it though. Won't hurt so worth a try.

By description and look, I would not expect this stone to be very fine. I am not surprised that you are working hard to get a shaving edge. I've owned more than a few stones with similar coloring, patterning, and characteristics.

 

[SubSet]

FWIW, steel hardness has nothing to do with choosing stone hardness. They're not related outside of old wives tales.
Edge type is the determining factor. If you want a convex bevel, use a softer stone.
A harder stone will provide a more accurate V shape, with a thinner edge width.
It's geometry, and physics, no purple kool aid.
File that noise with the honing on distilled water story.

Anyway,

The OPs stone does not say Akapin to me.
I don't see anything that indicates Tenjyou Suita.
It could be either but given my experiences I would not lean that way.

I am not convinced the Maruka stamp is legit. Different topic for another day though.
Typically, Akapin would not bear a Maruka stamp, fwiw...

It looks to be dry and somewhat porous.
If it is very muddy when lapping and autoslurrying, then yes it's soft.
It could just very well be from Tomae, but a softer seam. There's a few in there and some are muddy/softer.
There are also stones that do not have an official name/seam/strata...I forget the Japanese name but the translation is 'plum fields'. Could be one of those.

If the stone is just releasing slurry and getting muddy without working for it, one hope to get a shaving edge is to do a few strokes and rinse. Don't make any slurry, use the stone water only and keep pressure very light. maybe try lapping the stone on 1k w/d paper. Might help. Depends on how the stone reacts to it though. Won't hurt so worth a try.

By description and look, I would not expect this stone to be very fine. I am not surprised that you are working hard to get a shaving edge. I've owned more than a few stones with similar coloring, patterning, and characteristics.

Even if it’s not relevant, I’m glad you brought up the stamp as I forgot to mention it in the OP. I am also under the impression it is not authentic. The seller mentioned it was likely stamped by a dealer because of the fineness (or for the dealers sale at that time or whatever). I don’t mind either way since I didn’t buy it for the stamp, but because of the description of the stone that the seller provided.

Would it help if I took a picture of the included paper stamp?

Your observation about porosity is correct based on what I’m seeing since it absorbs water faster than my other stones. I couldn't say yet if I’d call it “thirsty” but it is noticeably different than my harder stones. The edge definitely responds better to water only and minimal pressure. Which is something I’m not as accustomed to with my other stones, but I like that it brings a different experience and challenges me to learn and adapt.

That’s also the first I’ve heard of the term ‘plum fields’ for naming. Is there any other information I can provide or tests I can perform that would help you determine more about its properties?

I test shaved with the first shavable edge I've produced off of it this morning. The result was just about as close as edges my other stones have produced so far, but it was a quick shave so I’ll need more rounds to determine anything more.

 

[alx gilmore]

Even if it’s not relevant, I’m glad you brought up the stamp as I forgot to mention it in the OP. I am also under the impression it is not authentic. The seller mentioned it was likely stamped by a dealer because of the fineness (or for the dealers sale at that time or whatever). I don’t mind either way since I didn’t buy it for the stamp, but because of the description of the stone that the seller provided.

Would it help if I took a picture of the included paper stamp?

Your observation about porosity is correct based on what I’m seeing since it absorbs water faster than my other stones. I couldn't say yet if I’d call it “thirsty” but it is noticeably different than my harder stones. The edge definitely responds better to water only and minimal pressure. Which is something I’m not as accustomed to with my other stones, but I like that it brings a different experience and challenges me to learn and adapt.

That’s also the first I’ve heard of the term ‘plum fields’ for naming. Is there any other information I can provide or tests I can perform that would help you determine more about its properties?

I test shaved with the first shavable edge I've produced off of it this morning. The result was just about as close as edges my other stones have produced so far, but it was a quick shave so I’ll need more rounds to determine anything more.

Thanks for the offer, I would like to see the paper stamp.
Alx

 

[Gamma]

The only person, persons, legally allowed to use that stamp is Hatanaka's company. No one else is licensed to use it. A story about a dealer applying it for whatever reason reeks of b/s and triggers all sorts of radar warnings. There's so much of this going on now, it's reached pandemic levels. There really are dealers/vendors stamping up a storm out there. One source even provides an 8x11 printed document outlining the stamp's intention. There are sellers who are just mixing and matching terms and names without even considering if those combinations are even possible. It's nuts.

The only way to judge, any stone, really, is by use. Visual indicators might say something, sure. that drying line on your stone, for example. Might suggest something. But could be caused more from low ambient RH.
Candidly, this stone of yours does not strke me as being a very fine razor-quality stone. It looks to be dry, porous, muddy. The written description speaks to that. Once I had a softer Kiita that was better than OK as a razor finisher. It was not the bomb finisher. The super hard Kiita made it look like a dumb option. I'd say 99% of the time I'm gauging finishing capabilities against harder, finer, more dense, not muddy types. If I am sharpening cutlery, or other tools, then the terms of engagement change considerably. I use a sort of soft Binsui with a chef knife, for example.
But with Your stone, dunno with certainty. I would guess that if I had it in my hands and honed on it a few times it would remind me a a bunch of softer Narutaki, Takashima, and/or Shobu asagi I've owned. Just a guess. Guesses don't mean much, really. Some softer Wakasa and a few other locations have produced similarly patterned stones. But there might be new things to learn out there somedays.

Anyway, I only piped in here because there seemed to be a runaway storyline that wasn't making sense brewing. Normally I stay out of these threads, that avoidance helps maintain my sanity. Not seeing Akapin, not seeing Suita of any flavor. Neither are Awasedo anyway.

A lot of stones don't actually have 'names'. Some, many, stones on the market are culled from open areas, where veins crop up to the surface. Sometimes stones are culled from veins exiting the side of a hill, no way to know for sure what seam it is. The majority of them are not really in the Awasedo class but some are. Sometimes, often actually, they get sold as "Nakayama Honyama" because it sells.

Using it tells all, as to whether or not the stone lives up to expectation for you. Actual origin, or strata name, impossible to verify. Even if it was identical in look and feel to a known stone, it still might be from a different location.

 

[ethompson]

Great to hear from some of the foremost experts and I look forward to following this thread to the end and learning along the way.

 

[SubSet]

Thanks for the offer, I would like to see the paper stamp.
Alx

Im out of state today helping family move but here is a photo I had on hand:

I can take another later if you need more detail.

The only person, persons, legally allowed to use that stamp is Hatanaka's company. No one else is licensed to use it. A story about a dealer applying it for whatever reason reeks of b/s and triggers all sorts of radar warnings. There's so much of this going on now, it's reached pandemic levels. There really are dealers/vendors stamping up a storm out there. One source even provides an 8x11 printed document outlining the stamp's intention. There are sellers who are just mixing and matching terms and names without even considering if those combinations are even possible. It's nuts.

The only way to judge, any stone, really, is by use. Visual indicators might say something, sure. that drying line on your stone, for example. Might suggest something. But could be caused more from low ambient RH.
Candidly, this stone of yours does not strke me as being a very fine razor-quality stone. It looks to be dry, porous, muddy. The written description speaks to that. Once I had a softer Kiita that was better than OK as a razor finisher. It was not the bomb finisher. The super hard Kiita made it look like a dumb option. I'd say 99% of the time I'm gauging finishing capabilities against harder, finer, more dense, not muddy types. If I am sharpening cutlery, or other tools, then the terms of engagement change considerably. I use a sort of soft Binsui with a chef knife, for example.
But with Your stone, dunno with certainty. I would guess that if I had it in my hands and honed on it a few times it would remind me a a bunch of softer Narutaki, Takashima, and/or Shobu asagi I've owned. Just a guess. Guesses don't mean much, really. Some softer Wakasa and a few other locations have produced similarly patterned stones. But there might be new things to learn out there somedays.

Anyway, I only piped in here because there seemed to be a runaway storyline that wasn't making sense brewing. Normally I stay out of these threads, that avoidance helps maintain my sanity. Not seeing Akapin, not seeing Suita of any flavor. Neither are Awasedo anyway.

A lot of stones don't actually have 'names'. Some, many, stones on the market are culled from open areas, where veins crop up to the surface. Sometimes stones are culled from veins exiting the side of a hill, no way to know for sure what seam it is. The majority of them are not really in the Awasedo class but some are. Sometimes, often actually, they get sold as "Nakayama Honyama" because it sells.

Using it tells all, as to whether or not the stone lives up to expectation for you. Actual origin, or strata name, impossible to verify. Even if it was identical in look and feel to a known stone, it still might be from a different location.

I’m glad you chimed in. You’ve left me with a lot of useful, new, and interesting information to read and research more about. I’d even be comfortable with sending you the stone to use and evaluate yourself if it wouldn’t be a burden to you.

 

[Gamma]

Thank you for the offer and expression of trust. I barely have time to get through my own honing and stone evaluations though. I have a super hard Nakayama on the bench that has had my attention for several weeks now and there's no letting up in sight. And a new Ark, and some other stuff... never ends. If you wind up in Brooklyn with the stone some day, swing by with it though.

The volume and newness of the stamps on top of the stone looks 'tourist grade' to me. Sort of a double reinforcement for my earlier stated suspicion about the Maruka stamp. Not a good or bad thing, just one of those things.

There's been a lot of disinformation about the Maruka stamp, and stamps in general actually, over the years. The Maruka thing really never was a quality stamp as originally perceived, not in a good, better, best way, anyway. Now it's a diluted market with way too many unscrupulous sellers stamping stones however they feel like. That one fleabay seller who got caught faking stones simply changed his name and continued on. And, I'm told, there are people on this forum who were actually speaking favorably of the guy's service - all the while he's ripping people off with counterfeit stones! Mind Blown!

Anyway, for a long while it's been my thought that If you like the stone then you like it, and where it is from is irrelevant, really. All the hype about this mine or that strata, or whatever, it's just corksniffing nonsense designed to get people to keep buying stuff. Just another form of FOMO.
The absolute qualities of the stone are all that matter, not the naming conventions.
One issue though, is when someone spends a ton of $$ on something with a story, then you sorta want the story to be straight.

 

[Steve56]

The only person, persons, legally allowed to use that stamp is Hatanaka's company. No one else is licensed to use it.

Hatanaka’s dead, the maru-ka stamps are free now as I understand it, no one owns them anymore. If you have info that someone is legitimately using the stamps, that would be very interesting,

The only way to judge, any stone, really, is by use.

True of all naturals stones, not just JNats. A point that a lot of folks just can’t seem to grok. And also synths I suppose.

 

[SubSet]

Thanks for the offer, I would like to see the paper stamp.
Alx

I took a couple better photos in different exposures to help see color and condition. I thought it was black ink originally but looking at it closely now in better light it's actually a nice deep blue.

 

[Steve56]

I know that Alex will correct me, but IME, all these stamps translate to ‘I’m a great stone, buy me.’

 

[SubSet]

I barely have time to get through my own honing and stone evaluations though. I have a super hard Nakayama on the bench that has had my attention for several weeks now and there's no letting up in sight. And a new Ark, and some other stuff... never ends.

Suffering from success. No worries, though. People who help others have access to informative videos, articles, strops and quality jnat kits are a positive impact on the community that make it easier for the individuals just starting out.

The volume and newness of the stamps on top of the stone looks 'tourist grade' to me. Sort of a double reinforcement for my earlier stated suspicion about the Maruka stamp. Not a good or bad thing, just one of those things.

Looking closely under light there are parts that are pretty deep black, although the lacquer could be messing with my untrained eyes and amplifying that. The fading comes across as if it could have been done intentionally. Like a forced patina for lack of a better term.

There's been a lot of disinformation about the Maruka stamp, and stamps in general actually, over the years. The Maruka thing really never was a quality stamp as originally perceived, not in a good, better, best way, anyway. Now it's a diluted market with way too many unscrupulous sellers stamping stones however they feel like. That one fleabay seller who got caught faking stones simply changed his name and continued on. And, I'm told, there are people on this forum who were actually speaking favorably of the guy's service - all the while he's ripping people off with counterfeit stones! Mind Blown!

Unfortunate the deception reached that point. It's the reason I was hesitant to buy my first stones or (certain) razors until I could find verified sellers I trusted. This was a first step outside outside of that for me and we'll see where it goes and what I can learn from it. I appreciate your time and help.

 

[SubSet]

I know that Alex will correct me, but IME, all these stamps translate to ‘I’m a great stone, buy me.’

Gotcha, that does sounds like the very few paper stamps I've seen translated before.

 

[Gamma]

and we'll see where it goes and what I can learn from it. I appreciate your time and help.

yw.
The thing to learn, always, is that stamps don't matter. In your case, the stamps on top do not coincide with what's on the end. The Maruka stamp doesn't look 'right' to me for reasons other than patina. No need to get into that though. There are also other reasons why I doubt the stamp that I just won't share because it will tip off fraudulent sellers who will find a workaround.

For the most part, the stamps on top of your stone appear to be a different lineage than the Maruka. But because a lot of uncharted things happen in that industry, there are sometimes stones that don't make sense but might be legit. For me though, where there is smoke there is fire. So I don't gamble when my radar goes off. Besides, If someone likes their stone, who cares what the end stamp says? People mistakenly assume an authentic Maruka stamp implies something, and it does mean something, but just not what a lot of people people want to think it means.

At the end of the day - none of it matters. What does matter, is the stone itself and if you like it.
I have owned a literal boatload of Maruka. Many were directly from Hatanaka's shop. Others from sources close to them. I have also had fakes and questionable but unproven either way stones.
Been there, done it.
After the dust has settled - I kept one of them. And I kept it because of how it feels. Not because of the stamp. If I didn't like the feel or the performance, I would not have kept it, stamp or no stamp. It's brilliantly hard, super fine, with great texture and decent speed. The only downside is that it's on the smaller side of things... so be it.

It's just important to know that there is a fairly prolific cottage industry dedicated to re-creating stones with a vintage look that intrigues buyers. The effort now spans several areas around the globe. It's a relatively small sector of the hone industry but the snakes are out there. So it's very much a buyer beware situation.
Good luck with the stone, keep working with it!

 

[alx gilmore]

Im out of state today helping family move but here is a photo I had on hand:

View attachment 1768627

I can take another later if you need more detail.



I’m glad you chimed in. You’ve left me with a lot ofn useful, new, and interesting information to read and research more about. I’d even be comfortable with sending you the stone to use and evaluate yourself if it wouldn’t be a burden to you.

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. My wife and I were heading to Reno yesterday for some dining and gambling but the holiday traffic was so bad we turned around and headed home even before we got to Sacramento.

The stamp in the photo of your stone is from the Maruichi company of Kyoto and they are one of the few modern stone retailers in Kyoto who began as miners. The father whom I did not meet was a miner and a member of the Kyoto Miners Association. His son now, who is about my age (early 70s) was not a miner himself. After his father died the son took over the business. He has a helper mostly for setting up, and you will find him in good weather at the huge flea market in Kyoto on the 3rd Sunday of the month at the Toji temple in central Kyoto, and the Tenjin-ichi temple out near the Emperor's palace.

He will have hundreds of stones, all of which are ink and paper stamped with their Maruichi logo. Their company carries Ohira, Nakayama and samples of all of the Kyoto mines plus Shinden, Maruoyama and more. Nice people and I suspect that Maruichi were one of the companies, along with Imanishi, who bought the remnants of the Hatanaka Company after Mr. Hatanaka died a few years ago.

Maruichi is and always has been a family owned company, they purchased stones from the Nakayama miner Kato. Remember, Kato-san was not a retailer, only a miner and wholesaler but he did develop the well known Maruka logo which Hatanaka Teruhiko used with permission from the Kato family until his death about 10 years ago. Alx

 

[cugel]

Where I would start is ask “does it take a shave ready edge backwards?”

Not always a yes no answer but if it doesn’t kill the edge with feather light strokes on plain water it probably could finish an edge just so.

I just finished on a soft orange yellow kiita koppa of unknown origin and the edge seems right on. Plain water and light strokes. On the other hand you could use your soft stone as a nagura on a harder base stone too.

 

[Empire straights]

“There appears to be a lot of discussion surrounding harder Jnats, their use, and comparing/differentiating them to softer stones, but not much (from what I could find) about producing a shaveable edge on softer stones.”

The short answer to honing on softer stones is to use less slurry, finish hone under running water or dunked in a pond of clean water to minimize slurry. Slurry impact can damage an edge and you can take one step forward and two back by honing on slurry. A lot also depends on the bevel/edge condition when the razor is brought to the stone.

But that may not be your issue or only issue. There are four potential issues, 1. Failure to match the stone to the razor, 2. Slurry dulling, edge impact on slurry. 3. Honing past the optimum edge and 4. Rough stone face finish. The stone face finished on aggressive diamond plate will produce a different finish than one finished with a fine nagura, not so much making slurry but the stone face, particularly with harder stones.

It gets overlooked on everything besides coticules by I think it's important to condition the face of the stone with another equally hard or harder stone after using a diamond plate. Diamonds will cut straight other abrasives and leaves them like shards of glass. A fine India that's flat makes an AMAZING conditioning stone and they're cheap. I've used them on hard Arks in place of burnishing and they're great. They break little pieces that are sticking up of but those turn into slurry and an india will break them down as far as I can tell. Burnishing seems to leave novaculite cutting slow but diamond plate>India doesn't seem to do the same. I don't own a microscope so I can't say for sure, but that what it feels like. It sounds like downtown Bagdad circa 2003 outside of my house right now, I love Christmas. God bless Texas.

 

[Empire straights]

Even if it’s not relevant, I’m glad you brought up the stamp as I forgot to mention it in the OP. I am also under the impression it is not authentic. The seller mentioned it was likely stamped by a dealer because of the fineness (or for the dealers sale at that time or whatever). I don’t mind either way since I didn’t buy it for the stamp, but because of the description of the stone that the seller provided.

Would it help if I took a picture of the included paper stamp?

Your observation about porosity is correct based on what I’m seeing since it absorbs water faster than my other stones. I couldn't say yet if I’d call it “thirsty” but it is noticeably different than my harder stones. The edge definitely responds better to water only and minimal pressure. Which is something I’m not as accustomed to with my other stones, but I like that it brings a different experience and challenges me to learn and adapt.

That’s also the first I’ve heard of the term ‘plum fields’ for naming. Is there any other information I can provide or tests I can perform that would help you determine more about its properties?

I test shaved with the first shavable edge I've produced off of it this morning. The result was just about as close as edges my other stones have produced so far, but it was a quick shave so I’ll need more rounds to determine anything more.

If it's really abrasive, but way too soft, I'd start cutting naguras out of it. I love my naguras(were sold as slim koppas for razor finishing), and they are. But they are not a stone to finish on. I have tried this one once or twice on a razor, but it's one that is insanely fine, but so soft you you can never put steel to stone. Softer than my Mikawa naguras after soaking. It's a muddy pea soup color and was cheap but it can put an amazing edge on kiridashis and razors AS SLURRY. It can be pretty thick mud as long as it's wet and it'll break down really fast. It perfect for those 2 blades. For knives I got to go back and do 2 or 3 laps on a light Botan or gujyo slurry to put teeth back on it. If your stone slurries that bad it'd make top shelf naguras. I'm no expert on jnats, I've got a handful and a medium wooden vbowl full of naguras + a few, but I've used these stones way less than say coticules/ arks/ llyn Idwals/ Tams. I usually save them for certain steels, things that need a microscopic edge(surprisingly my fine woodworking tools, not the ones I put to my neck), but I've noticed this in my jnats. The fun thing about them is they come from a very volcanic place. Volcanoes create chaos AND melt rock simultaneously, this creates all kinds of fun and surprising variations in whetstones. I don't dig deep in jnats or go for expensive stones because I'm going to be afraid of how ill feel/ act if I ever do try one that's accurately valued at $5k.

 

[rhgg2]

maru-ka

ohhhh, I see. Maruka is "circle か" i.e., ㋕. Similarly Maruichi would be "circle 市" (apparently not in unicode).

 

[Gamma]

Finishing Jnats are not igneous. Sedimentary, possible low grade metamorphic in some cases. They're predominantly what we refer to as Shale today. Shale is a sedimentary term. Back in the 1800s they were mostly viewed as slate. The deposits left by, or created by, tectonic plate shift.

Soft Jnats that don't make it as a finisher might not become a good Tomo - it's not something that just happens by default. Sometimes it works out. Other times not. I've experienced an awful lot of soft Tomo that doesn't get to finishing levels. So just cutting up stone to make Tomo might not be a plan that comes to fruition.


Here is what I know to be the Maruichi select stamp - FWIW, it would not be on a stone simultaneously with a Maruka stamp. Hatanaka did not use this stamp. The characters bordered on right = "excellent finishing whetstone"

Versions of this, usually just borrowing some characters, particularly the circled Ichi, pop up often in various formats. I've been told that vendors and wholesalers use them at will. I've seen a ton of them. Literally.

There are a few stories and a lot of internet lore concerning that Maruichi 'brand' stamp on my tomo above. The legend of this stamp belonging to Kato does not hold water. If it was Kato's stamp then Hatanaka would own it now, and that does not seem to be the case. At any rate, I have not seen anything conclusive.
Kato owned the rights to quarry, everyone buying Nakayama bought from him. No other way to do it. When the rights transferred to Hatanaka, he became to sole source.

The old stories about the stamps that emanated from So Yamashiro sort of fell apart due to a lack of substance and a wealth of contradiction. For a while though, the stamp I showed above was seen quasi regularly. Over time, its been proven that the presence of that stamp did not ensure razor finishing quality. The circled Ichi mark is fairly common still but not in that configuration. The Maruka stamp is seen all the time now, mostly counterfeited though. The literal translation of it though, particularly the circled KA... is it referencing KAto, HatanaKA, both - or is is just Chikara..."force, power".

I see a few ways to translate that card or box...

The lower left stamp on the lid or card in the pic above refers to the stone being 'Selected' in Kyoto.
Upper right inner is referencing Yamashiro, and the other - made in Japan.
If you are familiar with 330mate stones, you know the Yamashiro reference.

The big stamp in the middle is interesting - unrivaled or unparalleled something or another products..
Jade, dragon, apricot...


Again, placing a lot of focus on ink is a mistake.
What matters, all that matters, is how the stone works, and behaves, not what is printed on the box or the stone itself.
If the stone is good, then it's good. If not, then not.

 

[alex1921]

Only thing I can add is, be careful guys. Most of these sellers just go to Yahoo auctions, buy stuff, double or triple the price and sell. With razors it's easy but with stones, a lot of times they add the story so it sells better.
I follow few of these sellers on Etsy and one, not the one the OP's stone came from, started last year on FB shaving forums.

Stone clearly from Yahoo with some story about the seller stating his father purchased it blah blah. So I found the old auction, read the description and "surprisingly" there was no story attached to it. So I attached the link to my answer and the seller proceeded messaging me and asking me to remove my response or he will sue me for emotional and financial damages. I thought that was pretty funny. He eventually removed the listing.

I am no expert but the crap that is being sold out there as Maruka or Kiita or whatever catchy name the sellers think will bring the most money is unreal. Stones sold on Yahoo as no name that suddenly get christened and develop a pedigree. It's the wild west. One guy has sold so many Nakayamas you would think he inherited Hatanaka's warehouse.

Merry Christmas