Tips For Finishing on Softer Jnats?

[Gamma]

^
Exactly that and a whole lot more that goes with it unfortunately.
Oh the stories I could tell..... lol.

Years back, I would tell the truth and people online, some on this board actually, would refute it vehemently.
Then one day a B&B member (not around anymore) who I was NOT on good terms with DM'd me and went on a tirade about how he finally saw the truth, and how he found out first hand just how easy it would be to order 100 Nakayama Maruka. He was dumbfounded and said "you were right all along".

Only thing I was dumbfounded about was that he messaged me to tell me I was right.
Unfortunately, everything else was old news.

Many years ago I spent a minute on YA and never returned.

Generally speaking, I wade through the valley of sketch with a few rules in hand.

If it is too good to be true, it isn't.
Anything that looks like it is trying too hard to impress me, doesn't.
Whenever there is a fantastic story tied to the stone, it's b/s.

 

[ZeelandsRoem]

Most of these sellers just go to Yahoo auctions, buy stuff, double or triple the price and sell. With razors it's easy but with stones, a lot of times they add the story so it sells better.
I follow few of these sellers on Etsy and one, not the one the OP's stone came from, started last year on FB shaving forums.

Stone clearly from Yahoo with some story about the seller stating his father purchased it blah blah. So I found the old auction, read the description and "surprisingly" there was no story attached to it. So I attached the link to my answer and the seller proceeded messaging me and asking me to remove my response or he will sue me for emotional and financial damages. I thought that was pretty funny. He eventually removed the listing.

I am no expert but the crap that is being sold out there as Maruka or Kiita or whatever catchy name the sellers think will bring the most money is unreal. Stones sold on Yahoo as no name that suddenly get christened and develop a pedigree. It's the wild west. One guy has sold so many Nakayamas you would think he inherited Hatanaka's warehouse.

Indeed. Only in the last few weeks I saw around 10 stones (could be more, but my memory is limited) selling on Yahoo and appearing again for sale somewhere in the west, but suddenly being stamped either Nakayama, Maruichi or Maruka (or combination of them). And I am not even actively paying attention to this, it's just what I remember and then look them back in the history. Most of them are just being labeled/stamped Nakayama because just as you said, the name just sells, even if >99.5% of Nakayama on the market are fake. And this is not limited to small or occasional sellers only, I see it at the big ones as well.

Worst part is some of those stones are garbage grade (I would say the vast majority of stones selling on Yahoo auctions are garbage, but that's another story). How do I know? I bought 6 or 7 stones from the same seller on Yahoo, and only two of them were good enough to cut them into nagura. Imagine, as a beginner, paying big money for a "Nakayama" door stopper and then getting frustrated why you cannot get good edges out of it. Then you end up spending countless hours on forums trying to get advices why your edges aren't there, only to get burried even more.

Later edit:

One guy has sold so many Nakayamas you would think he inherited Hatanaka's warehouse.

I am still laughing at this one, it is so good it should be pinned.

 

[Steve56]

Also if you see a ‘maruka’ with lines or cracks, it’s almost assuredly fake. The stamp as used by Kato san meant that he selected the stone and he did not select cracked stone or stones with lines. After Hatanaka’s passing, newly stamped stones don’t signify anything.

I usually do not buy stones with stamps anymore, especially face stamps that are gone the first time that you lap it. You can lap off a $1000 worth of ink in a few seconds. There were also a number of end stamps that were not maruka stamps. The stamps were kind of advertising in a way, so it made sense to put your company’s name/stamp on the end and not the face, or in addition to a face stamp.

There’s still a lot of good stone around on YA, along with junk. I’ve gotten plenty of Nakayamas as evidenced by the ochre and umber skin colors, sparkling black skin, and performance. Nakayama was a large mine and closed later than the others, around 1963-1964 I believe, so there’s still a lot of that stone around. Most stone sellers on YA don’t describe their stones except they’ll maybe say it’s a suita if it is. It’s difficult to accuse many of them of deceit when the only description is ‘Look at pictures. No return.’ Needless to say it helps to know what to look for and who the reputable sellers are in maximizing your chances.

I also have no problem with people buying stuff on YA, eBay, yard sales, antique stores and marking it up. People do it all the time. Dishonest people selling things as something that they aren’t is the issue and people do that all the time too, from a multitude of sources. Once I was bidding on a really nice large shiro nagura from Sakimoto san, the Asano fellow who also sells on YA. Went too rich for me and it sold for $600-ish. In about 10 days I saw it online at a reputable Japanese shop that I’ve bought from before, in a nice purple cloth lined paulownia box - for $1,500. But it was not misdescribed.

Good hunting gentlemen, but due diligence is in order as always.

 

[Gamma]

Worst part is some of those stones are garbage grade.... Imagine, as a beginner, paying big money for a "Nakayama" door stopper and then getting frustrated why you cannot get good edges out of it. Then you end up spending countless hours on forums trying to get advices why your edges aren't there, only to get burried even more.

This is the tip of the iceberg. That stone will most definitely get sold, and sold again. Multiple people will get burned and endless confusion results.

Another large part of the problem stems from way too many people operating way outside of their lane. The have gleaned shreds of info and woven them into a tapestry of b/s. It's like a perverse game of 'telephone' where a random phrase is passed along verbally amongst a string of contestants, but the words become unrecognizable when it gets to the final player.

The only person I know of who actually disposed of junk stone so no one else got burned is @Bayamontate . He was tossing junk Nagura into the East River semi regularly when we first started 'talking'. I've shattered a few stones intentionally myself actually.

A lot of what people send me pix of for evaluation is obviously junk stone. I never tell anyone what I think though, I don't grade stuff from pix usually esp when it's being sold online. No one wants to hear the truth anyway, the vast majority of bargain hunters just want their biases confirmed. I have better things to do. But yeah, supermarket or hardware store stones for the most part.

And FWIW, an authentic Maruka stamped stone might have lines and or have a crack.
There's more to it than just that though.
But there are things you will never see with an authentic Maruka.

 

[Bayamontate]

The only person I know of who actually disposed of junk stone so no one else got burned is @Bayamontate . He was tossing junk Nagura into the East River semi regularly when we first started 'talking'. I've shattered a few stones intentionally myself actually.

Yeah, I’ve disposed of 50+ hones, not including nagura in the waters between Staten Island and Manhattan though the years. There is bad honing karma passing along a HLO (Hone Looking Object) to a buyer or anyone while knowing it doesn’t work or is not what it’s supposed to be.

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

Can someone clarify the Maruka stamp. Assuming it is a legit stamp, does it specify for a razor finisher? Or was this also used for knife finishers and carpentry tools too?

I’ve seen Hatanaka / Hatahoshi stamped hones that appear to be specific to carpentry. These seem to command the highest prices, more so than razor finishers, at least from my observation.

I would hate to dump BIG money on a stamped stone and even if it was legit, only for it to be ideal for carpentry and not razors.

I don’t do carpentry but I do like knives. I picked up an Ohira Suita on the auctions ending on an off-day at an off-time for a very attractive price. It is a super knife finisher but it’s just short of a razor finisher. If I bought this as my first JNAT from a seller claiming this was a razor finisher, I would have been very disappointed.

The weak yen has Yahoo Auctions flooded with foreign buyers right now. Seems the deals were better a few years ago. Now, there is a scramble for everything. Even the vintage synthetics seem to have a market now.

I got my one genuine Maruka razor finisher so I’m good.

 

[Southbound1]

Yeah, I’ve disposed of 50+ hones, not including nagura in the waters between Staten Island and Manhattan though the years. There is bad honing karma passing along a HLO (Hone Looking Object) to a buyer or anyone while knowing it doesn’t work or is not what it’s supposed to be.

I agree ! +1

 

[Gamma]

There is bad honing karma passing along a HLO (Hone Looking Object) to a buyer or anyone while knowing it doesn’t work or is not what it’s supposed to be.

Truth

 

[ZeelandsRoem]

The have gleaned shreds of info and woven them into a tapestry of b/s

This happens often. People like having an opinion and forums or groups is their platform to express whatever they like to. Imagine being a beginner and starting to read into this amalgam of b/s. It's a road to nowhere.

The only person I know of who actually disposed of junk stone so no one else got burned is @Bayamontate

Thumbs up for that. It is hard to do it in the beginning, but it is the only right thing to do. But that's why I can't take anyone seriously if they cry that their stone split or they don't have the strength to acknowledge the stone is trash and throw it away.

He was tossing junk Nagura into the East River semi regularly when we first started 'talking'. I've shattered a few stones intentionally myself actually.

Finding good nagura is finding a needle in the haystack.

I have 2x 2kg+ 24 cut stones I use as weights when I am clicking leather and need bigger coverage. Other stones I tried to locally heat up to experiment splitting along the lines. Didn't get great results but I learned some bits. Dry cutting with the disk before negatively impacting the stone was another experiment.

I threw away 6 of them this week, despite spending well over a day only to lap them. Wish I did not spend so much time with them but it is what it is. Did not make sense to spend any more effort with them.

No one wants to hear the truth anyway, the vast majority of bargain hunters just want their biases confirmed.

This is also confirmed by the fact that they keep speaking about their "Nakayama", despite being told the previous day that they actually bought a fake Nakayama.

 

[Gamma]

First thing, is to understand what the big picture is. A razor/kamisori stone, typically, refers to size mostly. It would, of course, be Awasedo class stone. Size is a major component in price/value. So an 8x3x2" stone that is 'pefect' would be valued more than the same quality stone in a smaller size. Its' not linear. Twice the size can mean 10x the value. Not all Awasedo stone suits all users for all applications. There is no one single absolute formula.

Can someone clarify the Maruka stamp. Assuming it is a legit stamp, does it specify for a razor finisher?

It does not mean razor finisher. It is sort of a brand stamp but not exactly just that. Can be seen on larger stones, as well as Kamisori size stones. When authentic, it will for sure mean the stone is from Nakayama. There are many 'meanings' attributed to the stamp but they all boil down to the stone being from Nakayama.

Or was this also used for knife finishers and carpentry tools too?

It is a brand, does not infer use, see above.

I’ve seen Hatanaka / Hatahoshi stamped hones that appear to be specific to carpentry. These seem to command the highest prices, more so than razor finishers, at least from my observation.

Hatanaka has/had several brands. Prices of larger stones with perfect corners, no lines, rare patterns, uber consistent, etc - will be much higher. There are Kamisori size stones with Maruka and Hatahosi marks. Others too. FWIW, there are many many many full size stones that are sold to traditional wood workers that would be excellent razor finishers.

I would hate to dump BIG money on a stamped stone and even if it was legit, only for it to be ideal for carpentry and not razors.

The stamps will not tell you how the stone hones. Even within the class of Awasedo, finishing stone, there are myriad qualities to know about. Some Kanna blades shave wood in thicknesses of a few microns, it's entirely possible that the stones they are sharpened on might do pretty well for honing razors.

I don’t do carpentry but I do like knives. I picked up an Ohira Suita on the auctions ending on an off-day at an off-time for a very attractive price. It is a super knife finisher but it’s just short of a razor finisher. If I bought this as my first JNAT from a seller claiming this was a razor finisher, I would have been very disappointed.

Buying stones from dishonest people will often result in not getting what was advertised.

The weak yen has Yahoo Auctions flooded with foreign buyers right now. Seems the deals were better a few years ago. Now, there is a scramble for everything. Even the vintage synthetics seem to have a market now.

As the market grows, the number of scammers increases and so does the number of junk stones.

I got my one genuine Maruka razor finisher so I’m good.

Reminds me of the Cutler's Green I saw on fleabay, it was written in sharpie on the side of the stone....

 

[Steve56]

Interesting comments everyone.

There are apparently two maruka stamps, the one with purplish ink that aged to brown that Kato used, and one in black ink that Hatanaka used after he bought out Kato. The Kato stones seem purer and more likely to be razor grade, but they’re older too. Hatanaka seemed to be a bit more liberal in his use of the stamp, and smaller ones like the boxed barber size could have lines in them. This is just my observation, and I don’t go out of my way to find or research these.

The maruka stamp more than anything indicated purity and regularity, more so the earlier ones. It did not indicate fineness. The interest in these stones was mainly from tool and knife people, so maruka-stamped stones are probably more likely to be woodworking finishers, though there are of course many razor grade stones too. As Keith said, price goes up exponentially with size and a lot of razor people didn’t want to pay 10x for real estate that they didn’t really need.

I don’t know that the number of junk stones has increased on YA, they’ve always been there but there’s apparently also a lot of good stone still coming out of storage. I would think that the junk stones are being concentrated in the West when people find out the stone that they got isn’t very good and it keeps circulating. Good offerings on YA seem to come in waves.

 

[rhgg2]

Some thoughts as a newcomer who has spent some time on YA:

Steve has eloquently described the strategy in the past, which is that you bypass any curation and buy into in effect a raw stream of stone. The prices are lower but then you have to curate yourself. If you end up discarding a bunch of second rate stone you are just following the strategy correctly.

However I have been surprised by how little of what I have got is in the discardable category. I am not the most advanced honer or SR shaver but have no problem getting edges that work for me from maybe 3/4 of these stones. Are they top tier, I don't know, but they are good enough for someone with very little experience to work with. The remaining 1/4 is usually at least good for knives or tools.

I also don't think it is very hard to avoid junk stone. There are a few obvious big junk sellers, 330mate and a couple others who just give me bad vibes. Many of their stones do not seem to go overseas; it seems to be a national pastime to bid these stones up to like 3000 yen in painful 1 yen increments. After a while your brain just filters out those listings automatically. Then there are maybe 4-5 big sellers with a good rep (judging by the premium their listings attract) who offer at least some assessment. When I have bought from these, the stones have been exactly as (minimally) described. In between is a mass of sellers who appear with six pieces of weird ore and then disappear again. Many of my favourite stones have been calculated risks on these. As Steve says, there is rarely any deception, because there is rarely any commentary. In fact, some of the best stones I have got have explicitly stated in the listing that the stone should be considered as junk.

I think the junk problem seems more prevalent with nakatoishi, but that could be because I haven't spent enough time looking at nakatoishi listings to be able to automatically filter out the junk.

 

[alex1921]

There is plenty of deception on Yahoo. Colors altered to make stones look yellow etc. On razors some sellers use convenient angles to hide honeware or other issues.

The big sellers know exactly what they have and adjust their pictures accordingly. Don't like what you got? Tough luck, no returns

 

[rhgg2]

There is certainly a lot of bad colour management. I generally assume that anything which looks yellow is actually brown. One seller has a strong yellow cast on all their stones. But conversely, another has a gross puke green tinge, and I have got vibrant yellow stones that looked grey.

The big sellers do have well developed workflows that make their stones look good. But I don't think I've had anything which is deceptively different from what was pictured.

I think the most serious deception is whether lines hit or not. The big sellers seem reliable on that. Outside the big sellers it folds into the general lossage of the strategy.

 

[Steve56]

Colors altered to make stones look yellow etc.

Yes, but also no. I’ve been an amateur or semi-pro (no longer though) photographer most of my life. Most of the wild stone colors are just oversaturated. If you’re wanting a stone of a particular color from these ‘wild color’ sellers, download a couple of images and dial the saturation down by about 30 points. This seems to yield a color that’s close to what you’ll actually get, but the color itself has usually not been shifted. They aren’t sophisticated enough to alter color, they just crank up the saturation and maybe contrast. Try it!

The big sellers do have well developed workflows that make their stones look good. But I don't think I've had anything which is deceptively different from what was pictured.

Agree. They’re usually a little over saturated too, but not nearly as much as some others, and as you say, not deceptively so.

There is one ling time seller, from whom I have gotten some good and bad stones, that has a blueish cast on the top half of the image and yellowish cast on the bottom. This is time consuming and difficult to correct. I can only assume that this is to disguise the actual color of the stone.

I think the most serious deception is whether lines hit or not. The big sellers seem reliable on that. Outside the big sellers it folds into the general lossage of the strategy.

True. The problem with lines that ‘hit’ is that they greatly decrease the value of the stone. You can pick them and go about your honing business, but I generally avoid stones with big, rusty looking or gnarly lines that aren’t suita. There are just too many others.

 

[Gamma]

Yahoo auctions has been a nefarious pit hole of deception for a loooong time.
Lots of people have been swindled and many more will be swindled in the future.
It's been going on for well over a decade and as long as people keep making excuses and pretending things are just fine, then it will continue forever. For some reason people who get burned tend to go silent instead of speaking up. Can't tell you how many times I've i seen that happen.
People who haven't been burned yet, or haven't been around long enough to know better, will often deny issues because they think, or want to think, they know things no one else does or maybe they think they're smarter than everyone else. As if this hasn't been going on daily for a dozen or more years and literally hundreds or more have been screwed royally.
Some of the biggest sellers there have been caught in big scams. One of the biggest sellers there got kicked out of the KWA for fraudulent sales.

 

[Steve56]

YA is like eBay, there’s all sorts of stuff and sll sorts of sellers. eBay doesn’t operate in Japan. When Verizon bought Yahoo, Yahoo kept two major assets, YA Japan and a 30% stake in Alibaba. Yes, Yahoo is still around. I’ve been on YA for probably a decade. I’ve bought over a hundred stones, probably 300-500 buys if you count nagura lots, fingerstones, tomo nagura lots, razors, etc.

I have received exactly three ‘duds’. One was a barber size that was pretty, but it just didn’t have much grit in it. The second had circular bias cracks that would shed grit, all the way through the stone. The third was oiled and fell apart in my hands, but i have to wonder if that stone had been mistreated because as I got it, it would have never survived the saw, The reject rate is pretty low if you have a basic understanding of JNats. The duds and the dud sellers are not that difficult to spot, just like the fake W&B on eBay.

The most common annoyance is that you get stones that have been ‘oiled’ with a water soluble machine lubricant called Duraron that the ‘pro’ honer shops like to use. It’s yellow, it stinks (to my nose), and can be removed to non-detectable levels, but an oiled stone is a PITA. The upside is that the ‘pro’ shops usually didn’t have junk stones since time is money, and de-oiling these stones can be worthwhile.

Everything else had been a pleasant experience more or less. When you buy naturals of any origin, you never know exactly what you’re getting until you get it.

But the attraction of YA for me is that I can get stones for a fraction of the price, and of better quality than I can get in the west. Not to mention Japanese razors at good prices. The only thing about western sellers is that you can usually return the stone if you don’t like it, but some do not take returns! At 10-25% of western prices you can take some chances on YA. I’d rather have 4-5 stones off YA that doesn’t take returns for $X than one from a western seller that doesn’t take returns.

I have noted though, that good suita stones go for about the same price in Japan that they do in the west. There’s not as much difference for suita, so if you have return privileges and can find suita that you want in the west, go for it.

 

[alex1921]

Yes, but also no. I’ve been an amateur or semi-pro (no longer though) photographer most of my life. Most of the wild stone colors are just oversaturated. If you’re wanting a stone of a particular color from these ‘wild color’ sellers, download a couple of images and dial the saturation down by about 30 points. This seems to yield a color that’s close to what you’ll actually get, but the color itself has usually not been shifted. They aren’t sophisticated enough to alter color, they just crank up the saturation and maybe contrast. Try it!



Agree. They’re usually a little over saturated too, but not nearly as much as some others, and as you say, not deceptively so.

There is one ling time seller, from whom I have gotten some good and bad stones, that has a blueish cast on the top half of the image and yellowish cast on the bottom. This is time consuming and difficult to correct. I can only assume that this is to disguise the actual color of the stone.



True. The problem with lines that ‘hit’ is that they greatly decrease the value of the stone. You can pick them and go about your honing business, but I generally avoid stones with big, rusty looking or gnarly lines that aren’t suita. There are just too many others.

But that's exactly the problem. Major seller who enhances or over saturates or whatever making the stones look yellow because yellow sells. The guy knows exactly what he is doing. The fact that you have figured out how to see the real thing doesn't mean the new guy does. Well eventually he will once the stone arrives and looks different but by then it's too late. Stone has been sold. And he repeats the same trick and keeps improving his sale prices. That's deception.

The fact that there are deals doesn't change the fact that there are people who try to deceive you and if a new guy is to go there he better be warned. I was lucky that when I started in 2017 I joined a group of guys who were buying from yahoo long before I even tried and showed my the ropes, what to look for, what to avoid etc.

If you get crap on eBay you will get your money back. eBay sides with buyers.

Don't get me wrong. The majority of my collection is from there but if somebody reaches out I try to tell them the honest truth because the new guy has no idea what to look for. And when they do buy a stone they convince themselves it's the best because they paid for it. That's what kept the Russian guy in business for all those years. Major fraud but nobody wanted to say anything, the biggest complaints and actually proof of color manipulation was on the russian forums where people who got burnt were talking about it and warning others.

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

To be fair, either I suck or my phone sucks or both, but I always struggle to get the lighting and tone right when taking pictures of my stones. I don’t / haven’t sold anything so no issues there but I just want to post some pics of my rocks and have them look sort of like they do in real life. A picture of a rock shouldn’t be this hard.

While we are down this rabbit hole… @Gamma , I picked up a black Oozuku after watching your video and it ended up being a super-close spitting image of that stone, and same as you described in the video, it had a lot of oxidation that needed lapping off. How long do you think a stone would have to sit unused to get a thick oxidized layer like that?

The unassuming title of this thread has lead into a very interesting discussion. Thanks to all for sharing and contributing.

 

[rhgg2]

But that's exactly the problem. Major seller who enhances or over saturates or whatever making the stones look yellow because yellow sells. The guy knows exactly what he is doing. The fact that you have figured out how to see the real thing doesn't mean the new guy does. Well eventually he will once the stone arrives and looks different but by then it's too late. Stone has been sold. And he repeats the same trick and keeps improving his sale prices. That's deception

I think it comes down to, where do you draw the line. I think most people who have been to Burger King figure out pretty quickly that a Whopper does not look much like the picture. The situation with a stone is less extreme and as soon as you buy one you will figure out the calibration. It is not harmless but I don't see it as outright deceptive. Hiding lines, layer cracks or other defects is another story. In this regard I did receive one stone with a line which the seller had picked but not mentioned. But this particular seller never mentions lines or indeed anything at all, so I still don't see that is really deceptive. I could see the line (in a dead area of the stone) and know the risk. If that part of the stone had not been photographed that would be deception, but also my own fault for buying something with incomplete images.

In the end it is no different and no worse than other secondary markets. Hounding for vacuum tubes on eBay you soon learn to ignore everything the seller tells you, and any branding on the tube, and just look at the internal structure of the tube and roll the dice. I never return bad lots, that is just how it goes. It doesn't take long to orient yourself enough to hedge against doing anything unspeakably dumb. Being a bit circumspect and not throwing huge sums of money at any one thing gets you a long way. Same principle applies with bits of rock.