Tips For Finishing on Softer Jnats?

[SubSet]

Hello B&B,

Some long-winded preface for context: this is my first discussion post here, so please let me know if I am missing information or not asking the right questions. I have been honing and shaving with SRs for about a year now. In that time I have only used Jnats and modern synthetics. Every time I ask a question It has lead to more things I learn and that has translated to my edges getting better and more consistent. So what sparked this post? It was actually a few 10+ year old archived threads here and other shaving forums discussing soft vs. hard Jnats and one comment specifically mentioned how sometimes softer Jnats can be quirky to finish on, comparing them to Belgain coticules (which I have no experience using) and said understanding tricks with those coticules can help with using some softer Jnats but did not outline the specific or necessary techniques to fininshing on softer coticules/Jnats. There appears to be a lot of dicussion surrounding harder Jnats, their use, and comparing/differentiating them to softer stones, but not much (from what I could find) about producing a shavable edge on softer stones.

I recently acquired my first Nakayama Asagi stone, and due to it's size and characteristics, it was significantly more expensive than anything I've purchased previously (almost more than my entire asano nagura and awasedo collection combined). My first two natural stones were Ozuku Mizu and Shobudani Mizu Asagi. I have been getting great edges off of these stones that I find shave close and comfortably. From what I've read people categorize these stones as hard, as did the sellers, and from my limited experience lapping and using them I agree they are very hard (I want to avoid using the LV system as I feel it is subjective to ones experiences and I don't have many references). I understand that each stone is unique and stones from those two mines can also be soft, but examples like that are typically rarer and more expensive due to those qualities. My new Nakayama Asagi barber hone is an entirely different animal than anything I've used before. It was described by the private seller as a softer (4.5), ultra-fine finisher, that came from a barber liquidation sale in Osaka prefecture. Using a Nakayama Tomo or small 1200 atoma cube it creates a slurry rapidly and the feedback on the edge is velvety smooth and compared to my harder stones it has a grippy? feeling I assume is due to the softness. Certainly nothing like my harder finishers as it can slowly visibly autoslurry with just water.

My dilemma is that I haven't produced an edge that shaves close, so I wanted to ask if anyone has any tips or can share their experiences with their softer Nakayama stones. I know a stones abrasiveness/cutting speed also plays a factor, not just the hardness/fineness. Do I need to spend more time? Run it under water while doing the finishing laps so fresh particles are washed away? So far I have taken razors finished on the Shobudani that I know shave great, put them on this stone only to find that the bevel looks hazier/scratchier under the microscope, can barely cut arm hair at skin level, and after only stropping on leather (no flax linen or pastes) the edges just don't shave close. It's not that I feel like I got scammed or anything. The seller told me they get super smooth edges off of this stone and many online have described similar experiences with their stones or stated that back in the day barbers preferred these softer stones. So it feels like I am missing something or might be so used to the harder stones that my approach with this one isn't the ideal method. Also, I apologize for any assumptions I am making.

Thanks!

 

[Empire straights]

Using a very light touch will help, running water should too. Your other stone very well may just be finer too.

 

[ethompson]

Can you share a picture of the stone? Not common that I hear of Nakayama Asagi being described soft or capable of self slurrying.

 

[SubSet]

Can you share a picture of the stone? Not common that I hear of Nakayama Asagi being described soft or capable of self slurrying.

of course! I just took some, let me know if you need any specific photos.

I am not sure if this is a hard or soft stone, just that is feels softer than my other stones and was sold to me described as a softer finisher. It also laps very easily and muddy. Everything I’ve read about Nakayama Asagi matches what you mentioned which is why I’m scratching my head at the new experience.

 

[Christian1212]

I would make sure to lap the stone flat then smooth the surface out a little bit with a tomo nagura. It might finish better with a tad bit of slurry to stop the razor from sticking.

 

[ethompson]

of course! I just took some, let me know if you need any specific photos. View attachment 1768093View attachment 1768094View attachment 1768095

I am not sure if this is a hard or soft stone, just that is feels softer than my other stones and was sold to me described as a softer finisher. It also laps very easily and muddy. Everything I’ve read about Nakayama Asagi matches what you mentioned which is why I’m scratching my head at the new experience.

Thanks for the picture! Mind getting some photos in the same light first dry and then wet, including close ups of the surface? The surface patterning, at least to me, is less consistent with a tomae asagi and more similar to something from the akapin or tenjyou layer - that at least would help explain the softness. Really cool stone!

Disclaimer before I go further - I'm newer to honing that you are, though I've been using JNats for a good amount of time prior to taking up razors so take everything I say with a grain of salt. For softer stones, I typically don't like diamond plate slurry and I avoid using my 1200 Atomas. Even my very worn 1200 plate seems to shed diamonds periodically in soft stone that self slurry where it doesn't on very hard stones. The bulk of my experience is with kasumi polishing which isn't the same as bevel formation but does require a very careful eye for particle consistency and slurry behavior and in that context I have never had good luck with self slurrying stones and a 1200 plate. For those stones I always prep the surface with a nagura or tomo and then rinse the slurry after truing with an atoma and find I get best results starting with just water.

My suggestion would be to carefully flatten the surface and round your edges with an atoma and then use nagura or other stones to smooth out the surface. Then rinse the stone and give it a rub with your hand to make sure it feels smooth to the touch. Then just start honing on plain water and let the slurry build up (or not) to your preference and slowly dilute until finishing under dripping water and very light pressure.

 

[SubSet]

Thanks for the picture! Mind getting some photos in the same light first dry and then wet, including close ups of the surface? The surface patterning, at least to me, is less consistent with a tomae asagi and more similar to something from the akapin or tenjyou layer - that at least would help explain the softness. Really cool stone!

Disclaimer before I go further - I'm newer to honing that you are, though I've been using JNats for a good amount of time prior to taking up razors so take everything I say with a grain of salt. For softer stones, I typically don't like diamond plate slurry and I avoid using my 1200 Atomas. Even my very worn 1200 plate seems to shed diamonds periodically in soft stone that self slurry where it doesn't on very hard stones. The bulk of my experience is with kasumi polishing which isn't the same as bevel formation but does require a very careful eye for particle consistency and slurry behavior and in that context I have never had good luck with self slurrying stones and a 1200 plate. For those stones I always prep the surface with a nagura or tomo and then rinse the slurry after truing with an atoma and find I get best results starting with just water.

My suggestion would be to carefully flatten the surface and round your edges with an atoma and then use nagura or other stones to smooth out the surface. Then rinse the stone and give it a rub with your hand to make sure it feels smooth to the touch. Then just start honing on plain water and let the slurry build up (or not) to your preference and slowly dilute until finishing under dripping water and very light pressure.

Here’s some wet/dry. I put on a macro lens for the close ups.

 

[ethompson]

Yep, looks like akapin or tenjyou layer to me. I'd suggest prepping the stone surface very carefully - use your hardest / finest nagura, tomo, or even bench stone to burnish the surface prior to honing. I'd use very light pressure and absolutely no forced slurry. If a slurry did show up, I'd carefully dilute it as I went and even finish under light running water. I doubt it behaves as fine as your harder stones, but I bet you can improve your current results.

 

[SubSet]

Yep, looks like akapin or tenjyou layer to me. I'd suggest prepping the stone surface very carefully - use your hardest / finest nagura, tomo, or even bench stone to burnish the surface prior to honing. I'd use very light pressure and absolutely no forced slurry. If a slurry did show up, I'd carefully dilute it as I went and even finish under light running water. I doubt it behaves as fine as your harder stones, but I bet you can improve your current results.

Thanks for the suggestions, Ed. I will try prepping the surface with my hardest tomos instead of just the atoma or softer Nakayama tomo I used prior, not create a forced slurry, continue to dilute, and try finishing under running water as others have mentioned. All while maintaining light to weightless pressure.

Do you think if it does end up being Akapin or tenjyou layer the value and desirability is decreased at all? I don't care about those things as long as it performers good, but I want to make sure I wasn't mislead during the sale if that's the case.

 

[ethompson]

Thanks for the suggestions, Ed. I will try prepping the surface with my hardest tomos instead of just the atoma or softer Nakayama tomo I used prior, not create a forced slurry, continue to dilute, and try finishing under running water as others have mentioned. All while maintaining light to weightless pressure.

Do you think if it does end up being Akapin or tenjyou layer the value and desirability is decreased at all? I don't care about those things as long as it performers good, but I want to make sure I wasn't mislead during the sale if that's the case.

Not at all IMO. These are still great, high quality stones and I don't see anything with yours that'd put me off

 

[Steve56]

Agree, possibly a tenjyou suita. As stated before, make sure that the surface is flat and smooth/burnished, then after your normal finishing routine, wash all the slurry off the razor and stone and try 40 or so feather light stokes on clear water. If that doesn’t work try 40 very light final finishing strokes under running water.

 

[SubSet]

Not at all IMO. These are still great, high quality stones and I don't see anything with yours that'd put me off

Agree, possibly a tenjyou suita. As stated before, make sure that the surface is flat and smooth/burnished, then after your normal finishing routine, wash all the slurry off the razor and stone and try 40 or so feather light stokes on clear water. If that doesn’t work try 40 very light final finishing strokes under running water.

Great advice guys. After smoothing/burnishing with tomos I think I immediately noticed a difference in feedback. It feels a little glassier? With just dilutions i’m starting to treetop like it hasn’t really done before. I’ll see where this leads and then try the running water. The bevel might also be starting to look a little less scratchy now.

 

[ethompson]

Agree, possibly a tenjyou suita.

Good call on tenjyou suita, I think I’m leaning that way myself. Looking back, I briefly owned a Maruka suita that had similar coloring and performance - fine yet softer than expected and aggressive cutting action. I have a shobu tenjyou now that shows very similar surface patterns, namely those papers spots / swirls, though that stone is a very plain brown and very different from what’s described here.

 

[SubSet]

I’d like to add to and correct my earlier comment about the self slurry as I think that it may have been exaggerated by the rougher surface condition and likely my own shortcomings. It’s by no means making a mud by itself or anything like that. My lack of experience using a softer stone and the color difference probably made kicked up base particulate more noticeable than I am used to.

 

[Steve56]

Good call on tenjyou suita, I think I’m leaning that way myself. Looking back, I briefly owned a Maruka suita that had similar coloring and performance - fine yet softer than expected and aggressive cutting action. I have a shobu tenjyou now that shows very similar surface patterns, namely those papers spots / swirls, though that stone is a very plain brown and very different from what’s described here.

They can also have a karasu or crow pattern as does this Narutaki bench stone from Alex Gilmore. You know that it’s asuita because it has renge in the pattern.

@SubSet can you see any renge in your stone? It’s not always present but if it’s there, or faint ‘crows’ (karasu), that would be pretty conclusive.

 

[SubSet]

They can also have a karasu or crow pattern as does this Narutaki bench stone from Alex Gilmore. You know that it’s asuita because it has renge in the pattern.

@SubSet can you see any renge in your stone? It’s not always present but if it’s there, or faint ‘crows’ (karasu), that would be pretty conclusive.

View attachment 1768223View attachment 1768224

I see Karasu maybe? But in a significantly lower volume and spread out compared to my other stone or yours pictured.

Here is a close up of the stones corner:

versus:

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“There appears to be a lot of discussion surrounding harder Jnats, their use, and comparing/differentiating them to softer stones, but not much (from what I could find) about producing a shaveable edge on softer stones.”

The short answer to honing on softer stones is to use less slurry, finish hone under running water or dunked in a pond of clean water to minimize slurry. Slurry impact can damage an edge and you can take one step forward and two back by honing on slurry. A lot also depends on the bevel/edge condition when the razor is brought to the stone.

But that may not be your issue or only issue. There are four potential issues, 1. Failure to match the stone to the razor, 2. Slurry dulling, edge impact on slurry. 3. Honing past the optimum edge and 4. Rough stone face finish. The stone face finished on aggressive diamond plate will produce a different finish than one finished with a fine nagura, not so much making slurry but the stone face, particularly with harder stones.

 

[SubSet]

The short answer to honing on softer stones is to use less slurry, finish hone under running water or dunked in a pond of clean water to minimize slurry. Slurry impact can damage an edge and you can take one step forward and two back by honing on slurry. A lot also depends on the bevel/edge condition when the razor is brought to the stone.

But that may not be your issue or only issue. There are four potential issues, 1. Failure to match the stone to the razor, 2. Slurry dulling, edge impact on slurry. 3. Honing past the optimum edge and 4. Rough stone face finish. The stone face finished on aggressive diamond plate will produce a different finish than one finished with a fine nagura, not so much making slurry but the stone face, particularly with harder stones.

Those are great points. I definingly need to use more razors and with different edge conditions on it.

Would you mind elaborating on #1? Does that mean the type of steel?

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

In Alex Gilmore’s new book, he talks about an old Japanese adage, Hard steel, soft stone, soft steel hard stone, for optimum performance.

He also talks about old Japanese carpenters who would buy new tool steel, Japanese hand plane or chisels and match a new stone to the new steel to perfect the edge. And that it was a common practice for stone vendors to provide and deliver an array of stones to the carpenter, on loan to test and only charge the customer once the stones were tested by the customer and selected. A similar practice may have been in use for barbers and razors.

It is well known that certain Western steel prefer certain stones. So, while the adage is not set in stone, it is a good starting point for matching a stone to a razor.

Also, with some of the newer excellent high grit stones in the 8-10k range, one can take a stone to a Jnat with an edge finished to a high quality of keenness and bevel finish, near mirror. So, the Jnat can be use as just a finisher for comfort.

Alex also talks about the fact that a razor can only get so keen on a given stone. Once you have maxed out the edge, honing any more will not improve the edge, but will thin the edge which can cause chipping or edge failure where the whole or part of the microscopic cutting edge breaks off when honing or after stropping.

For me this was an eye opener, and I experimented finishing with fewer laps on Jnats, just enough to finish the edge, test shaves confirm results.

Makes you rethink those videos of guys doing endless laps on finishers…

Alex’s book is chocked full of great information on honing with Jnats, a lot of which is not discussed on any fora. (Japanese Sharpening Stone Heaven: NARUTAKI TOISHIYAMA)

 

[SubSet]

In Alex Gilmore’s new book, he talks about an old Japanese adage, Hard steel, soft stone, soft steel hard stone, for optimum performance.

Thank you for the book recommendation. I have been wanting to find books or journals/articles by metalsmiths about the different Japanese steels (and other steels) used in razors or anything related to the subject. I was not aware of the perfect edge matching and the relationship between stone vendors and their clients. It's interesting how they optimize the new stone to the new razor. It makes perfect sense now, but I guess because of my exposure to the availability and variety of stones so far it's led me to believe you just have to work with what you can get. It helps as I learn about more trustworthy sources of stones (that are still active).

Alex also talks about the fact that a razor can only get so keen on a given stone. Once you have maxed out the edge, honing any more will not improve the edge, but will thin the edge which can cause chipping or edge failure where the whole or part of the microscopic cutting edge breaks off when honing or after stropping.

You mention eye opening and that is exactly how I felt after someone first mentioned overhoning to me. I was so worried about a list of other things that were actually giving me worse edges in the end. I had a nice loupe but due to a vision impairment it was not easy to use or get all I wanted out of it, so I found a digital scope on sale and it's been game changing helping me understand what I'm actually doing. Thanks to that it was easier to focus on the edge a lot more + the thought of overhoning in the back of my mind has led me to be much more consistent at turning out the best edges I have ever done before. I will take that and some of the things you mentioned about slurry in your first comment into practice, thanks.