Shapton 16K and CrOx question(s)

[NavyShave]

New to honing here. I have the Shapton 16K as a finishing stone and I am wondering about which edge should be leading. On the 4K/8K I obviously lead with the edge. with the 16k, should I be leading with the edge as well? Or should I be leading with the spine as in stropping? I can see logic to both.

While I am here, does anyone put chromum oxide on a hanging leather strop? I have the filly from Ken and he has it on the rough side of the strop, but I am thinking about getting a smooth leather strop for the chromium. I have a CrOx crayon as well as a paste. Thanks for your advice!

 

[superbleu]

lead with the edge with the 16K shapton, just like you do with the 4K/8K norton.

For the CroOx, you can do whatever you like, I think most folks like balsa, since it's cheap, and will stay flat. If you use it on a hanging strop be it leather, felt, canvas or other, you have to be sure to hold it really taught so you don't risk rounding the edge.

 

[danjared]

Some people also use leather on a paddle strop (or even leather with magnetic backing to attach to a base, like a DMT plate or some other plate).

 

[NavyShave]

Thanks for the replies. I like the idea of chromium oxide on a hanging strop sine it will be hanging there with my other strop. Thank for the advice about keeping the strp FLAT. That may explain a few issues I have had in the past. Appreciate it.

 

[Ray-man]

Hone your razor, on all stones, with the edge leading. Honing with the spine leading is a technique used by more experienced honers who believe their edge is, or perceived as, overhoned. It is called "back honing", and will mute or even dull the edge when performed. I personally would recommend that you never hone with the spine leading at any time.

To throw a monkey wrench into the Chromium Oxide question, let me say this. Crox comes in different percentages of purity. The one I use is 99.9% pure. Some of the others are well below that, and could even be nothing more than the type used in paint coloring with added fillers.

I have always advised those using the pure stuff to never do more than 6 to 10 max laps on hard balsa. It is not uncommon to do 15 laps and over sharpen the edge to a point that it starts to crumble. Using less pure crox you can strop much more and pretty much not worry about damaging anything.

I personally do not recommend putting crox on your linen or a leather strop. There is a difference in the results between both of those and hard balsa. This was recently documented by Bart, in the Market Place section of Coticule.be. My personal experience using crox on a lose stroping surface has resulted in rounding of the edge, that is why I would not recomment it.

Believe me, I have no intentions of starting a debate here, this is all my own personal opinion.

I would also like to say that I admire your decision to serve on active duty at this time. I served in the Navy, destroyer fleet, from 1963 to 1967 and do appreciate your service. Thank you for that.

As always, I still offer free honing, for just a small return S&H fee to all persons in the military on ACTIVE DUTY. Just pm me if you are interested.

Ray

 

[richmondesi]

Good show, Ray

Real quick: why, in your opinion, is rounding the bevel a big deal? It doesn't take very long to set a bevel and fix it for a guy with a set of stones. Is that recommendation by you guys primarily for the benefit of guys who do not? Thanks

 

[Ray-man]

Paul,
Crox is usually only used in two places. The first is in the maintenance of the razor. When the strop doesn't seem to bring back the edge, go to the crox for a few laps and then regular stropping. That usually brings the edge back.

The second is between the final finish stone and stropping. Rolling the edge at this point will erase all the finishing.

As far as the bevel setting is concerned, remember, there are two parts to setting the bevel. One is the visible bevel itself, and two is the sharpness and purity of the edge before moving on.

I can't imagine why anyone would use crox at the bevel setting stage.

Ray

Good show, Ray

Real quick: why, in your opinion, is rounding the bevel a big deal? It doesn't take very long to set a bevel and fix it for a guy with a set of stones. Is that recommendation by you guys primarily for the benefit of guys who do not? Thanks

 

[richmondesi]

Paul,
Crox is usually only used in two places. The first is in the maintenance of the razor. When the strop doesn't seem to bring back the edge, go to the crox for a few laps and then regular stropping. That usually brings the edge back.

The second is between the final finish stone and stropping. Rolling the edge at this point will erase all the finishing.

As far as the bevel setting is concerned, remember, there are two parts to setting the bevel. One is the visible bevel itself, and two is the sharpness and purity of the edge before moving on.

I can't imagine why anyone would use crox at the bevel setting stage.

Ray

Yeah, I can't either... That's not my point. As the bevel rounds, you have to go back and flatten it out once the CO2 is no longer able to refresh the edge... That's the problem with rounding the bevel, right? It get's to the point that the rounded bevel prevents the edge from being able to be refreshed by the CO2...

 

[Ray-man]

The way I perceive it is the edge actually begins to get dull from shaving. If you look at it under a cheap microscope, like Radio Shack's, the edge is still intact but has little to no sharpness left in it. So I guess it is rounding that is taking place along the edge. I really don't care what is happening to the visible bevel, as I am sure this is not what you are referring to.

Ray

Yeah, I can't either... That's not my point. As the bevel rounds, you have to go back and flatten it out once the CO2 is no longer able to refresh the edge... That's the problem with rounding the bevel, right? It get's to the point that the rounded bevel prevents the edge from being able to be refreshed by the CO2...

 

[richmondesi]

The way I perceive it is the edge actually begins to get dull from shaving. If you look at it under a cheap microscope, like Radio Shack's, the edge is still intact but has little to no sharpness left in it. So I guess it is rounding that is taking place along the edge. I really don't care what is happening to the visible bevel, as I am sure this is not what you are referring to.

Ray

I don't care either, but the problem is the rounding. Why is that such a big deal to the guys who say don't use CO2 on a strop when it can be flattened out pretty easily when resetting the bevel after you reach the point that CO2 won't refresh the edge any more? Considering Glen & MParker's experiments that showed thousands of laps on a pasted strop without reaching that too rounded to refresh the edge point, I'm just curious why it's still considered such a concern.

 

[Ray-man]

So I guess the real question here is does it make a difference if someone has extensive experience at stropping, compared to someone who doesn't?

I believe it does. Glen as well as MParker both are well seasoned at stropping. Much of what they post is certainly inspiring, at least to someone like me, but I just can't compare a relatively new user to them.

Ray

I don't care either, but the problem is the rounding. Why is that such a big deal to the guys who say don't use CO2 on a strop when it can be flattened out pretty easily when resetting the bevel after you reach the point that CO2 won't refresh the edge any more? Considering Glen & MParker's experiments that showed thousands of laps on a pasted strop without reaching that too rounded to refresh the edge point, I'm just curious why it's still considered such a concern.

 

[richmondesi]

So I guess the real question here is does it make a difference if someone has extensive experience at stropping, compared to someone who doesn't?

I believe it does. Glen as well as MParker both are well seasoned at stropping. Much of what they post is certainly inspiring, at least to someone like me, but I just can't compare a relatively new user to them.

Ray

No, my question is why is the "problem" of rounding the edge a concern when it can be quickly honed/flatten out when resetting the bevel.

 

[Ray-man]

The final test I use before moving from the bevel settin stage to the next is not a TNT or TPT, but the ability to cut arm hair at its base. I do this on several points along the blade. If I don't pass this test, I don't move on. Perhaps others use a different indicator.

So in my world, rounding the edge at the bevel setting stage, will not allow the edge to pass my personal test and I will not move on. For others it might.

Ray

No, my question is why is the "problem" of rounding the edge a concern when it can be quickly honed/flatten out when resetting the bevel.

 

[richmondesi]

The final test I use before moving from the bevel settin stage to the next is not a TNT or TPT, but the ability to cut arm hair at its base. I do this on several points along the blade. If I don't pass this test, I don't move on. Perhaps others use a different indicator.

So in my world, rounding the edge at the bevel setting stage, will not allow the edge to pass my personal test and I will not move on. For others it might.

Ray

I'm just really confused now. Why are we talking about rounding the edge at the bevel setting stage? When I hone a razor, I do like Bart recommends and dull my razor on glass. Then I work on setting my bevel (with my coticule or Shapton 1k). Once it shaves arm hair, the bevel is perfectly flat. Then the rounding of the edge is no longer a concern because it has been flattened out. That's my point. I don't understand why people say not to use pasted strops due to rounding of the edge. Well, It isn't that time consuming to flatten out, so I'm asking what the concern is. I'll quote myself (with an attempt at clarification) from the original question:

"why, in your opinion, is rounding the bevel (edge) a big deal? It doesn't take very long to set a bevel and fix it (rounded edge/bevel) for a guy with a set of stones. Is that recommendation by you guys primarily for the benefit of guys who do not (have a full set of stones but only a finisher)? Thanks"

 

[Ray-man]

Dang it Paul, now you got me confused!!!! Maybe someone can jump in here and save both of us.....Smile...

Ray

 

[richmondesi]

Dang it Paul, now you got me confused!!!! Maybe someone can jump in here and save both of us.....Smile...

Ray

 

[superbleu]

No, my question is why is the "problem" of rounding the edge a concern when it can be quickly honed/flatten out when resetting the bevel.

Isn't the whole point of using CroOx to try to maintain a honed/shave ready edge so you can delay the need to use stones again?

The problem I might see is if the CroOx hanging strop isn't used correctly, this will indeed have the likely hood of rounding the shaving edge negating all the work done to get the razor shave ready.

 

[richmondesi]

Isn't the whole point of using CroOx to try to maintain a honed/shave ready edge so you can delay the need to use stones again?

The problem I might see is if the CroOx hanging strop isn't used correctly, this will indeed have the likely hood of rounding the shaving edge negating all the work done to get the razor shave ready.

Yes, CO2 is used to maintain a shave ready edge to delay having to use stones again, but rounding of the edge isn't "negating the work done to get the razor shave ready". Essentially the claim is that razors are "refreshed" (meaning brought back to shave ready) while rounding the bevel/edge. Over time, it is theorized that it eventually becomes so rounded that it can no longer be refreshed with a hanging pasted strop (for the record, this isn't stated with the disclaimer that it occurs when a CO2 coated hanging strop "isn't used correctly"- it is stated as what happens as a result of the proper use of a hanging strop coated with C02 or any other paste for that matter).

My point is that it's easy to fix that when it gets to the point that it needs to have a full bevel reset (ie, when the pasted strop won't bring back the edge anymore). So, the only real reason I can see to use this as a reason not to use a hanging strop would be if the gent didn't have the means to do a bevel reset. Additionally, as I stated, Glen's experiment went so long that he got bored with it and stopped keeping track because after thousands of strokes, he never reached that point.

 

[Chimensch]

Yes, CO2 is used to maintain a shave ready edge to delay having to use stones again, but rounding of the edge isn't "negating the work done to get the razor shave ready". Essentially the claim is that razors are "refreshed" (meaning brought back to shave ready) while rounding the bevel/edge. Over time, it is theorized that it eventually becomes so rounded that it can no longer be refreshed with a hanging pasted strop (for the record, this isn't stated with the disclaimer that it occurs when a CO2 coated hanging strop "isn't used correctly"- it is stated as what happens as a result of the proper use of a hanging strop coated with C02 or any other paste for that matter).

My point is that it's easy to fix that when it gets to the point that it needs to have a full bevel reset (ie, when the pasted strop won't bring back the edge anymore). So, the only real reason I can see to use this as a reason not to use a hanging strop would be if the gent didn't have the means to do a bevel reset. Additionally, as I stated, Glen's experiment went so long that he got bored with it and stopped keeping track because after thousands of strokes, he never reached that point.

So, to summarize:
With CrOx, you can ruin a blade by stropping incorrectly.
You can ruin the blade by stropping too much.
Supposedly, a certain point it stops working and you have to go back to the hones.
But, if you use a barbers hone, coticule or similar, it's unlikely that you will do it incorrectly or too much, it never stops working and you never have to go back to another hone (e.g., my 29 years with just a barbers hone). Give me simplicity and reliability.

 

[richmondesi]

So, to summarize:
With CrOx, you can ruin a blade by stropping incorrectly.
You can ruin the blade by stropping too much.
Supposedly, a certain point it stops working and you have to go back to the hones.
But, if you use a barbers hone, coticule or similar, it's unlikely that you will do it incorrectly or too much, it never stops working and you never have to go back to another hone (e.g., my 29 years with just a barbers hone). Give me simplicity and reliability.