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What Natural Finisher Do You Like?

Ideally, I'd like to keep the stone all in right around $100 and have something that is super consistent. What are your guys opinions on options? Look forward to your thoughts.

Keep your eyes open for a 6x1.25-7x1.5 dark blue thuringian. You can snag one under $100 with some patience. Heck even labeled DB Eschers dont got for MUCH more. Even better if you get REALLY lucky and a Thuri backed Ambicut hone comes up, buy that.


Second best option would be getting a smallish razor finisher jnat. Problem is jnat is a very broad category of stones and there are many, many MANY unscrupulous sellers who will tell someone looking for a razor finisher that everything they're selling is a razor finisher. So you have to be a bit discriminating when shopping for those.

Thuri's have their own problem in that they are faked/misID'ed by sellers a lot... so generally don't trust a seller's ID on those unless someone familiar with Thuris can give it a stamp of approval.


Don't compromise on stone quality to get size. A cheap but mediocre 8x3" stone is not a better option for razor finishing than a great 5x1" hone.
 
So I've honed two razors, one from 3000 grit, then onto an 8000 grit, then onto a hard Ark and finished them with the Vermont Slate, both with slurry and clean, and I'll say they both came out very well. I'm really pleased with the edge I'm getting out of this slate. But I don't have enough experience to say it's the best finishing stone around yet.

I'd like to someday get a translucent ark to compare the two, but a decent sized one can run some bucks. My real need first however is to get some better lower grit stones, as the ones I'm using are from a cheapish Amazon box set. They did the job I guess, but I know I can do better. I'm not sure what to look for there, maybe a soft Ark? I don't know yet.
You should be able to do pretty much everything with an ark and a coticule.
 
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You should be able to do pretty much everything with an ark and a coticule.
Thanks.

I'm guessing you're correct, however my Ark is a small hard stone. While it could work, I don't think it's fine enough to finish. My Vermont is much finer, or should I say glass-like than my small Ark and likely better for a polished edge. Someday I'd like to get a sizeable translucent Ark, and I think that would do it for me. But they're not cheap, so I'll keep on working with what I have.
 
@Saloogie, Do you have a kitchen scale? Can you measure the specific gravity of the small Ark as per this video:


Use two (2) pieces of cord/line/string. Don't sweat finding the perfect cord/line/string. Just make sure that the two pieces of cord/line/string can easily carry the weight of the stone. Practice a few inches above a soft surface like a bed to avoid dropping the stone during the actual show.

Two (2) more references:


 
@Saloogie, Do you have a kitchen scale? Can you measure the specific gravity of the small Ark as per this video:


Use two (2) pieces of cord/line/string. Don't sweat finding the perfect cord/line/string. Just make sure that the two pieces of cord/line/string can easily carry the weight of the stone. Practice a few inches above a soft surface like a bed to avoid dropping the stone during the actual show.

Two (2) more references:



Wow, thanks for that info.

I had no idea how they measured the density, or gravity, of a natural stone. Very good stuff to know.

I don't have a kitchen scale, but I might get one to check out this experiment. It's just another interesting and fascinating part of the SR hobby!
 
Hey Gents, Dan's Black Ark (6x2x1/2) arrived in the mail yesterday. I proceeded with surface prep for one side only (i.e. one side burnished, one side left untouched). I need some advice based on my prep as outlined below on how to best proceed (e.g. start using the stone for honing, re-prep the burnished side all together, etc). Welcome all thoughts. Thanks.

Phase 1

1. Began by chamfered edges with wet / dry sand paper and then lapped with Atoma 400 with water (all thatched pencil marks removed after ~7 minutes).
2. Placed wet / dry 600 grit sandpaper on a panel of glass from our kitchen and continued to lap / buff (~3 minutes).
3. Burnished with a new wood chisel (started with Dan's honing oil and then moved to water for ~3 minutes).
4. Cleaned off all oil from the stones surface with paper towel and let dry.

Result: I did not achieve that classic "polished" ark look, instead the surface was slightly buffed in some areas and not others while I'd say half of the stone still gave off that "dull" ark look.

Phase 2

Note: Out of fear that when lapping on the wet / dry 600 grit sandpaper that I had brought the ark out of flat, I went back to the Atoma 400. As you can tell, I like to make things more difficult than they need to be. :)

1. Lapped on Atoma 400 (again) for ~7 minutes (until all hatched pencil marks were gone). For the last ~2 minutes, I gave the stone very light touch on the Atoma 400. Scratch marks on the stone surface were fairly visible (as noted in the picture below).
2. Restarted the burnishing process again with chisel, this time using Dan's honing oil only (for ~8 minutes with a liberal amount of honing oil and stopping to re-coat surface regularly).
3. Cleaned off all oil from the stones surface with paper towel and let dry.

Result: Similar to results from Phase 1 - stone surface did not achieve much of a "buffing / polished" look (see picture below). The "burnished" side feels pretty much identical to the untouched side of the stone. Ha.


Burnished side of ark stone (below)

Burnished Side.jpg


Untouched side of ark stone (below)

Untouched Side.jpg
 
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First, mark your grid with a sharpie, not pencil. Pencil will wash off with slurry and you are still not flat.

You can see black sharpie on a black stone, but red or blue are a bit easier to see. WD40 removes sharpie ink incase you get it where you don’t want it.

You are flat, when you can completely remove all the sharpie grid in 10 laps or less.

Buy a steel cookie sheet from a Dollar store, wet a sheet of 600 and stick it to the cookie sheet and put the cookie sheet on your glass or a 12x12 marble, granite floor tile. I use a 20x20 piece of Granite that I picked up from Habitat for Humanity for $5.

If your sharpie grid is not completely removed in 10 laps you need to lap with 60 grit loose Silicone Carbide and or 60 grit loose Diamonds on the cookie sheet. I use 60 grit Silicone Carbide and Diamond. Got Grit.com will sell you a grit progression from 60 to 500 for $15.

Once flat move up grits to 500 loose Silicone Carbide, then switch to 600 Wet and Dry.

A 600-grit finish is a nice finish, if you want to burnish take it to 2k wet & dry then burnish.
 
Hey Gents, Dan's Black Ark (6x2x1/2) arrived in the mail yesterday. I proceeded with surface prep for one side only (i.e. one side burnished, one side left untouched). I need some advice based on my prep as outlined below on how to best proceed (e.g. start using the stone for honing, re-prep the burnished side all together, etc). Welcome all thoughts. Thanks.

Phase 1

1. Began by chamfered edges with wet / dry sand paper and then lapped with Atoma 400 with water (all thatched pencil marks removed after ~7 minutes).
2. Placed wet / dry 600 grit sandpaper on a panel of glass from our kitchen and continued to lap / buff (~3 minutes).
3. Burnished with a new wood chisel (started with Dan's honing oil and then moved to water for ~3 minutes).
4. Cleaned off all oil from the stones surface with paper towel and let dry.

Result: I did not achieve that classic "polished" ark look, instead the surface was slightly buffed in some areas and not others while I'd say half of the stone still gave off that "dull" ark look.

Phase 2

Note: Out of fear that when lapping on the wet / dry 600 grit sandpaper that I had brought the ark out of flat, I went back to the Atoma 400. As you can tell, I like to make things more difficult than they need to be. :)

1. Lapped on Atoma 400 (again) for ~7 minutes (until all hatched pencil marks were gone). For the last ~2 minutes, I gave the stone very light touch on the Atoma 400. Scratch marks on the stone surface were fairly visible (as noted in the picture below).
2. Restarted the burnishing process again with chisel, this time using Dan's honing oil only (for ~8 minutes with a liberal amount of honing oil and stopping to re-coat surface regularly).
3. Cleaned off all oil from the stones surface with paper towel and let dry.

Result: Similar to results from Phase 1 - stone surface did not achieve much of a "buffing / polished" look (see picture below). The "burnished" side feels pretty much identical to the untouched side of the stone. Ha.


Burnished side of ark stone (below)

View attachment 1897924

Untouched side of ark stone (below)

View attachment 1897925
Congratulations on your new ark. You have a top tier razor finishing stone.

I think you were wise to leave one side untouched. Without the right equipment one can do more harm than good attempting to flatten stones. Glass is not flat. Cookie sheets are not flat. Marble bench tops are not flat. Atoma diamond plates are not particularly flat. In reality nothing is truly flat. You best bet is finding something that someone has measured to show how far out of flat it is. If you’re +/- a few microns like a DMT diaflat or granite surface plate then you are plenty flat enough.

There’s really no need to stress though. Many people have shown that perfect results can be untainted from imperfect tools. Close enough is good enough in this case. Just don’t be surprised that your Atomas surface doesn’t match a sheet of flexible glass on a countertop. It probably won’t be an exact match for a different Atoma either.

If I was you, I would use the Atoma 400 surface that you have and simply burnish from there with a chisel. Pencil grids are good. Sharpie grids are better. Look at the stone from a low angle and observe the reflections. Are there any dead spots etc. are some areas of the grid being removed faster than others. All areas should come off at the same time when you are done. I would avoid refining the surface with W/D sandpaper on an unverified surface. In my view loose Silica Carbide is most useful where lots of cutting is required as in the case of a dished stone. It can actually work against you in the final stages.

Another method of burnishing is to rub two stones of a similar size and material that were prepared on the same plate against one another. This will both smooth the stones and flatten them further via the three stone method. If you don’t have a second stone and must refine the surface further you could use WD with a compressible backing gentle and evenly across the surface. You would smooth the surface but do so at the risk of flatness.

Give the burnished Atoma surface a shot. I think you will find that it works fine. It will get more and more polished with use. When it gets too slow you can rough it up again.
 
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One man's opinion... You need to separate the following:
  1. Getting to near flat/removing chips/scratches from getting to flat.
  2. Finally getting to flat.
  3. Changing the finish.
For #1, you need to use SIC on a reasonably flat surface. A clear sheet of glass will do the job:

1724507433024.png


The sheet of glass will dish. As the glass dishes, the center be the deepest causing the edges of the stone to round. The more pressure you apply, the deeper the center will become and the rounder the corners of the stone will become. Imagine placing your stone into a bowl with sloping sides. What will catch? The corners.

For #2, you need to lap the stone on a reasonably flat surface with light to no pressure (just the weight of the stone) without dishing the surface. One solution is wet/dry sandpaper on a new clear sheet of glass.

For #3, pressure is your enemy. Depending on your setup, pressure may lead to dishing. One solution is to gently lap the face on a sheet of wet/dry sandpaper on a new clear sheet of glass using only the weight of the stone. If I wanted to change the finish on the face of a new Dan's Arkansas stone, this is what I would do. Going to step #1 is not necessary and will only reduce the thickness of your stone.

I would also not obsess over flat. A clear sheet of glass is flat enough for shaving.
 
Novaculite stones are comprised of silica particles of about the same size in all their forms, what differs between them is density and hence friability.

Soft arks have loosely compacted particles that do not interlock as much as denser stone, and have much more pore space between particles. More of the particles are exposed so that they make deeper scratches in steel cut faster and more coarsely due to the open space between silica particles. These stones will shed particles slowly and dish.

Harder stones and more compressed -- the higher the density the more compressed they are -- and the particles interlock more, plus there is less and less space between as the density goes up.

Very hard arks cut with surface texture, not exposed particles because there are no particles sticking up from the surface. A hard ark just off of being flattened with 60 grit SiC will cut as fast as a soft ark, but since the silica chips off in tiny bits, the surface will soon start to smooth out. With use they will become near mirror surface. Cutting speed and scratch size (or polishing ability) will go down as the stone gets smoother until you are just burnishing the steel, not really removing much steel.

Hence the need to prep and maintain the surface of the stones for what you want them to do. Dan's come very flat and finished to around 600 grit, which should be fine for razors as is. My primitive certainly is fine as delivered. An Atoma is going to leave a very rough surface that will take a while to smooth out with finer grit or paper or whatever, I would only use one to remove dishing from an abused stone. It will take a LONG time to grind out deep scratches with W/D paper.

The stone will burnish in use, sharpen a couple chisels on it with some pressure and it will be much smoother, but if you have a good flat even 600 grit finish it will work nicely on razors with light pressure and oil without burnishing. The smoother and shinier it is, the longer it will take to finish a razor edge,
 
This is great collective insight. Appreciate the responses Gents! These Ark stones are sweet for sure - just have to get it dialed in to my liking / need.
 
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Zulu Grey. Outstanding finisher but they have become a tad scarce.
Translucent Arkansas. Many consider these to be the gold standard. They are a fine stone but I believe there are better choices.
Scottish hones. I truly like the Water of Ayr. Coming off a Slovakian Rozsutec they can put a really nice edge on a razor.
 
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