YAY Microscopic edge pictures

[Shaun asleep]

As some of you may have noticed it took me a long, looooong time to get a shaveable edge on a razor.
I threw in the towel twice, then with help from @ZeelandsRoem , some youtube videos and stones that weren't Chinese I suddenly managed to hone up things decent enough to get a good shave out of them.

This morning I received a USB-Microscope and went exploring. I was busy for about 4 hours until my wife said I had wasted enough time.

Things I've learned in these 4 hours:
First: my barberhone, which was rated 8k to 10k by a reputable EU seller is of lower grit than my 6K king.
I'm guessing 3, maybe 4k, which I guess is fine. It can slide in between my 1K and 6k to speed things up.
This is one of the reasons why I took this long. I had completely polished out the edge on the 6K king, then ruined it on the Bhone, so had to do all the polishing on the 6k over again.

Second: I wasn't spending anywhere near enough time on my 6K king to remove the 1K stirea. I need to put in alot more work on that 6k, though the barber hone may assist me with this if I slide in between those stones.

Third: For some reason my 25 micron paste gives me a scratchier finish than my 6 micron paste. I'm guessing it's because the leather strip isn't entirely flat.

BUT what kind of shocked, surprised me was the amount of scratches my slates give to the edge.

I'm going to share some pictures, because looking at the edges I realise I have much to learn. And I'm confident you guys will have plenty of things to say.

1) finished on .6 paste:

2) Same razor with a finish on a Nero Ardesia slate, cheap Italian slate, very black, very much looks like a Black Shadow rated 10k by seller:

3) Same razor with a Black Shadow finish after the Nero Ardesia finish:

4) Same razor with a Green Shadow finish after the Nero Ardesia and Black Shadow finish:

Now I was under the impression that less scratches and more mirror like, the better.
According to the seller of the Shadow Stones the Green Shadow should be higher grit than the Black Shadow, I don't really notice that much difference?
Each slate got the same lap count.

Are these scratches caused by making up & down motions on the finishing stones?
I do this on my synthetics, maybe I should only use x-strokes on the finisher?
Or does the scratch pattern mean nothing when it comes to finishing stones?
And what is your take on the edge of the Nero Ardesia compared to the 2 shadow stones?

It is ofcourse possible that the Nero Ardesia scratched up the bevel and the Shadow Stones are too fine to polish them out.
To see if this was the case I took another razor from 1K to 10 k and then Black Shadow only and got this edge:
The picture is far less clear, I couldn't get it in focus with a bigger zoom setting (and I was getting tired of this )

Many thanks for your input, if things are totally dire - please be kind, I am a gentle soul.

 

[Shaun asleep]

Forgot to mention, the slates were all used without slurry. Only mixture of water and Arko! It is August, after all.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Magnification can teach you a lot, but first you must learn to interpret what you see.

The deep stria on the bevels is not from the slate, or all from the slate. That is 1k stria. The slates likely removed most of the 6k stria that was hiding the deep 1k stria. Once the 6k stria was polished off you now see the 1k stria that was never removed.

Notice how the deep 1k stria end in a “chip” at the edge.

You cannot Grit Rate a natural stone, or a class of natural stones. All that online “Grit Rating” is advertising BS.

If you want to rank your natural stones in order of finishing ability, you must test them against each other. A USB scope makes it easier because you can photograph the stria from each stone and compare it against each other.

You might be able to Grit Rank a natural stone, if you can compare the stira to a known synthetic grit stone. Most slates are in the 4-6k range and most contain random large grit, which prevents the stone from being a “finisher”.

First you must start with a base line bevel, without any stria.

Paste a 12x3” piece of clean cardboard, inside of a cereal box, with 3-inch X’s of any good metal polish, let dry.

Take a test razor to a 6k uniform finish, make sure you remove ALL the 1k stria. Now polish off all the 6k stria on the pasted cardboard strop on the edge of a table or bench. It will take about 100 laps to get a stria free mirror bevel. The edge will be ragged, but that is ok.

Now do 10-20 laps on what you think is your finest slate, look for an even stria pattern on the whole bevel.

Mark a sharpie line from spine to edge on both sides halfway between heel and toe. Take your second finest slate and keep the mid-way Sharpie mark at the edge of the stone, hone the toe half of the razor.

Now you can compare the finish off each stone to another and grit ranks all your slates. Make sure you are not finish honing on slurry, which will skew your results. You can and should use slurry with synthetic stones to speed up the stone’s aggression, and finish hone on a clean slurry free stone.

With natural slates, you will need to experiment with each stone to see if slurry or how much slurry improves performance especially at the edge.

This method of testing will also tell you if a natural stone contains random large grit, if it does, this eliminates that stone from being a finisher for razors.

Learning to hone with a USB scope is the second best, fastest method, in person one on one is the fastest and best.

Take a look at the post, search “(Second Try at Honing). That was a new honer and the second razor he had honed. The micrographs were from a $30 USB scope.

He took an eBay beater from this 1st photo to the second photo, 12k edge.

 

[Shaun asleep]

Notice how the deep 1k stria end in a “chip” at the edge.

Hey Brad, would you mind terribly highlighting this in a picture? I don't see the chip. I do believe I notice the stria of the 1K, as far up as my finisher shots.

I have a picture of post 1K and post 6K. Perhaps this will tell you guys more:

Post 1K:

Post 6k:

Post 10k:

I believe I see what you mean. The 50° marks aren't gone at all.
I did spend VERY much time on the 6K King to get it looking like this. At least 150 forth and back + after each set 25 x-strokes.

I believe the barberhone did ALOT of damage though, maybe it's partly to blame?
This is the Bhone result after the 6K. I think it might even look worse than the 1K King.
So I imagine I possibly should have maybe gone back to 1K after the Bhone.
Infact, I believe I should banish it from my progression entirely.

This was the edge after the 6K BEFORE hitting the Bhone:

I can still see the 50-ish degree striations the 1K left, you are right.
Given the fact that I spend sooooo much time on the 6K King, I am inclined to believe I need something to bridge that gap.
I see King has 4000 grit stones.

 

[Shaun asleep]

You might be able to Grit Rank a natural stone, if you can compare the stira to a known synthetic grit stone. Most slates are in the 4-6k range and most contain random large grit, which prevents the stone from being a “finisher”.

I actually bought slates specifically because I was told they were easy and "soulless" finishers.
Ave at it and shave away.

I was also told they provide finer finishes than Coticules. I found my vintage Coticule to be lacking in sharpness just a wee bit, which is why I sold it and turned to slates.
In fact, I spent as much money on my Black, Green & Ardesia stone as I would have paid for a reasonably sized Koppa. (Because I went for 80 cm wide stones)

PLEASE don't tell me I was wrong entirely or I might miss out on a good nights sleep.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Each deep 1k stria end in a chip at the edge, some in large chips. Load your photo in a Photo Editor, I am using MS Photo and double the magnification for a better look. Notice how each 1k stria end in a micro chip at the edge.

Make sure your 6k is lapped and edges beveled or rounded. Start with some diamond slurry on the 6k and some pressure to cut the 1k stria. Pressure will make a ragged edge, but we don’t care about the edge right now, we want a clean bevel. You can easily refine the edge on the 6k in 10 or so laps on a clean stone with minimal pressure, later.

A 1k to 6k should be an easy jump, you do not need a 4k. Also try refining you 1k stria by doing lite 1k laps on a clean freshly lapped 1k to reduce the 1k stria depth.

Try Alex Gilmore’s (Ax Method), edge leading only, reducing half lap count, to quickly remove the 1k stria, don’t be afraid to use some pressure to grind the 1k stria down. Once you have a uniform bevel, then re-lap the stone and wash off all the slurry. Set a new finish bevel on a clean 6k.

Your 6k bevel and edge should look better than this photo, of a 4k bevel.

From this bevel you should easily be able to polish the bevel to a stria free, mirror with metal polish on a cardboard strop. Then do you slate test.

Notice how each 1k stria end in a micro chip at the edge.

Lots of barber hones are heavily contaminated from years of knocking around and abuse. There are better solution. Barber hone, do make good Axe hones…

 

[Shaun asleep]

Hmm

After lapping the King, I gave it a quick go on slurry, then water.

Result so far, not quite like your picture yet. But the deepest stria seem to be gone?
Not as shiny, still lots of scratches....but I need to put my gear away or I'll have to sleep on the sofa.

Many thanks for your help already!

 

[psfred]

Hmm, those scratches look pretty deep for a 1k stone, and a King 6k in good shape cuts really fast -- at least mine do -- so I'm curious about what 1k stone you are using and how you are prepping and flattening your stones.

Stray grit embeds in synthetic stones, doesn't take many over-size particles to ruin a polish.

 

[ZeelandsRoem]

@Shaun asleep, my offer still stands: if you can, are able to and want to drive to my place and spend half a day (or more) to try different stones and work together some razors, please let me know. As I said, I live ~1 hour and 15 minutes away from you.

I think this way it will be far more efficient and you will have the possibility to try some stones and see if you like them or not, before buying them.

If you want to give it a try, I am still home for the next two weeks (parental leave). I hope you won’t mind our new born baby and that we are still renovating a room.

If it’s not possible in the next two weeks, then maybe a weekend somewhere after that is fine by me. We can discuss it and find something which works for both.

Cheers!

 

[Shaun asleep]

Hey Ioan, thanks for the offer.
I'm about to leave to the Ardèche, no way I can do the next two weeks.

I'll keep your very kind offer in mind and see where I stand when I get back.

Hope all is well with the wee one!


@psfred the 1k is a King as well.

 

[Frank Shaves]

I try to use light to no pressure at the end of each stone in the progression - just the weight of the stone. My theory is this decreases the depth of the scratches and reduces the likelihood of the scratches showing up later in the progression.

 

[Shaun asleep]

Probably going to be mocked at because of this, but I just shaved with my Bismarck - which is finished on the Green Shadow and went through the same progression as the razor pics above (be it some time ago).

The edge looks absolute toast on the microscope.
It's also very difficult to take pictures of other razors than the GD/GM for some reason. Reflection is much higher.

Anyway, it looks horrible...but shaves perfectly!

Sooooo cool as this may all be, is there a real purpose to this? I mean other than understanding what each stone translates to?
I can honestly say the edge on the picture below gives me a perfect BBS shave in two passes, without any discomfort.

I'm not just saying this because I obviously totally blow at polishing out previous stria, I am genuinly curious because I'm shaving off an edge like this and liking it.

When I find some time after my holiday I will definetly spend some more time on the 6K to try and get it near mirror.
Rather than doing the half-half comparison I'd probably just hone up 3 of the same Gold Monkeys to 6K and compare the slates that way.

But let's do it step by step and get to a mirror-ish 6K finish.
Thanks for giving me purpose, I'll try to endure.

 

[JPO]

PLEASE don't tell me I was wrong entirely or I might miss out on a good nights sleep.

There is nothing wrong with your setup.
Your black shadow is capable of going from a 1k bevel set to finish if you learn how to use it.
If you use it after a 6k it should be quite easy. However, your bevel needs to be good.
This is just one example.
1k shapton glass.
Start with pressure, refine with light pressure. It's still leaves a toothy edge, but the striation are not deep.

Worn dmt 600 slurry generated on the BS. Heavy pressure followed by light pressure. No dilutions at this stage.
Most of the ragged apex is cleaned up.

Generate slurry using the BS slurry stone. Work the slurry and dilute to clear water.
Clean the stone and add lubricant.
You probably need 50 to 100 strokes at this point.
This gives a typical BS slate finish.

So, there should be more then enough cutting speed in your BS to get you from 6k to finish. This was from a 1k stone.

 

[Shaun asleep]

@JPO so I need more pressure on my 1k, then light pressure, then pressure on 6k,then light pressure?

I also have a 10k naniwa, I was thinking of using that before the finishing slate. Is that a bad idea? I dont really like the idea of using slurry on the slates. I remember my previous black shadow slurry stone scratched my honing surface.

 

[JPO]

@JPO so I need more pressure on my 1k, then light pressure, then pressure on 6k,then light pressure?

I also have a 10k naniwa, I was thinking of using that before the finishing slate. Is that a bad idea? I dont really like the idea of using slurry on the slates. I remember my previous black shadow slurry stone scratched my honing surface.

You already have a set bevel. Unless you need to remove allot of material you just need enough pressure for the 1k stone to cut.
Judging by your 1k striation, you probably just need to finish with less pressure.
You can use your 10k before the slate.
Slurry will act at the front of your edge, and be quite effective at cleaning up the apex. However, it can also round your apex some. Hence why we dilute.
When you generate slurry with a nagura you need to be careful so you don't scratch up the stone. These slates scratch quite easily, and can release large particles into the slurry.
You can also compromise the surface of the stone.
If you have a 10k stone I would try to use the BS with some lubrication, or just a little slurry generated with the nagura.


Pressure is almost impossible to give guidance on. It's also the single most important factor when you hone razors.
There is no pressure baseline. My heavy pressure might be someone else's light pressure etc.
You also need to pay attention to your undercut. If you loose undercut you can bring it back by increasing pressure, followed by lighter pressure. The bevel is flexible, and as a result the stone will cutt faster at the bevel shoulder. You need to wary your pressure to ensure even abrasion.
You need to be consistent.
Start with some pressure, and taper down the pressure, but be consistent. You don't want to flex the grind, and you don't want to dig into the stone.

Stay away from youtube

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“The edge looks absolute toast on the microscope.
It's also very difficult to take pictures of other razors than the GD/GM for some reason. Reflection is much higher.

Anyway, it looks horrible...but shaves perfectly!”

Sooooo cool as this may all be, is there a real purpose to this? I mean other than understanding what each stone translates to?
I can honestly say the edge on the picture below gives me a perfect BBS shave in two passes, without any discomfort.”

You can hone two razors identically and they will deliver different edges. Which is why we always say, you cannot hone by formula, you hone each razor as it needs.

The Bismark photo and the 1st razor are very different bevels and edges. The Bismark, while it has some deep 1k stria, most do not end in large chips at the edge. There does appear to have some flashing/rolled edge on the left, which could easily be improved with some aggressive stropping on linen. But the edge looks pretty straight, so not surprising that the razor shaves, but lots of room for improvement.

The rolled edge may be an indicator of a stropping issue. It is not uncommon to hone the razor perfectly and roll the edge on a single stroke of the strop.

The common theme with both razors is, you are not spending enough time/pressure on the 6k transition stone to remove all the deep 1k stria.

The 1k is the grinder, you grind the bevels flat, to the proper angle and get the bevels to meet at an edge.

Then you transition from grinding to polishing, polish the bevels, (remove all the deep 1k stria) to polish/straighten the edge. The transition stone that you switch to polishing, 3-6k is as important as bevel setting.

If you never refine the edge, the razor will never shave well.

Your Naniwia 10k should leave a near mirror finish and will tell you a lot about your slates. They will either improve your 10k edge, or not.

You need to experiment with slurry to find the amount of slurry needed to produce a fine edge. A lot will depend on the condition of the bevel and edge that you bring to the slate. A polished 10k, with no deep 1k stria, may only need a misty slurry to lightly polish the edge and take the harshness from a 10k synthetic edge.

A misty slurry acts like micro ball bearing and prevent the stone from cutting too deep and just polish. Some stone will polish with misty slurry some will finish better on plain water, experiment.

Give this a try, set the bevel on the 1k, joint the edge, one light stroke on the face of the 1k. Look straight down on the edge. The edge should be shinny and any black spots are chips or where the bevels are not meeting fully.

Now hone on the 6k with a bit of diamond slurry with pressure. Look straight down on the edge, if you see black spots, do more laps until all the black spots are gone and the deep 1k stria on the bevel is erased.

Now joint the edge on the 6k face, a single stroke. Lap and wash the 6k and do 20-30 lite laps with minimal pressure. Look straight down on the edge, the edge should be grey, with no shiny reflections, the bevels are meeting fully.

You look straight down on the edge, at each stone to see if the bevels are meeting fully. Jointing straightens the edge, cut off the micro edge. Once the bevels are flat, the bevels can be brought back to meeting fully in 10-30 lite laps.

 

[Shaun asleep]

Last pic for now, going on holiday.

I just don't seem to be able to get a mirror finish.
This is the same Gold Monkey as before, taken through 1K king to 6K king, using the methods suggested.
Then 10K naniwa, then .6 paste, then Nero Ardesia slate. Shaves and treetops armhair.

Probably not bad that I'm going away for a while, it's starting to drive me crazy.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Yup, you have to perfect each stone in the progression, photographing/ documenting each edge.

First learn to perfect a synthetic progression (known grit), once you have mastered each stone and can produce a keen, good shaving 10k edge, then add a single natural slate.

Your slates are not finer than .6um. 50-60K, and likely not finer than 10k, so you are going backwards in your progression and are undoing any good work done on the 1 & 6K. More importantly if your slates will not improve a 10k, there is no benefit to the edge from using the slate, so eliminate it completely.

In your bevel photo, lots of deep stria, you need to determine if that is 1k stria or from your slate, then fix that issue.

The key in learning to hone razors is to minimize/eliminate unknow variables. Your slates are huge unknown variables.

This is all a very common new honer problem, especially with inexpensive slates. If any vendor “Grit Rates” an natural stone, it is BS.

Eliminate the variables.

 

[Bowmaker]

Probably going to be mocked at because of this, but I just shaved with my Bismarck - which is finished on the Green Shadow and went through the same progression as the razor pics above (be it some time ago).

The edge looks absolute toast on the microscope.
It's also very difficult to take pictures of other razors than the GD/GM for some reason. Reflection is much higher.

Anyway, it looks horrible...but shaves perfectly!

Sooooo cool as this may all be, is there a real purpose to this? I mean other than understanding what each stone translates to?
I can honestly say the edge on the picture below gives me a perfect BBS shave in two passes, without any discomfort.

I'm not just saying this because I obviously totally blow at polishing out previous stria, I am genuinly curious because I'm shaving off an edge like this and liking it.

When I find some time after my holiday I will definetly spend some more time on the 6K to try and get it near mirror.
Rather than doing the half-half comparison I'd probably just hone up 3 of the same Gold Monkeys to 6K and compare the slates that way.

But let's do it step by step and get to a mirror-ish 6K finish.
Thanks for giving me purpose, I'll try to endure.

View attachment 1892035

You won't get mocked by me. It sounds just like my own journey, nice to see what each stone did but I became bored with it and gave up on high magnification, the juice just wasn't worth the squeeze to me.

Coticule edges look like hell under magnification and can be great edges. I mostly do just natural stone progressions and there isn't enough hours in a day to polish bevels.

Each to their own...

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“I mostly do just natural stone progressions and there isn't enough hours in a day to polish bevels.”

And that’s kind of the point. If you are polishing bevels, honing for hours and still not getting shaving edges, you are doing something wrong…

The OP asked for help trying to get a consistent shaving edge with the stones he now has. Telling him to buy another natural stone is not the answer.

Each natural stone has its own learning curve, and some stones are just not razor honing quality, most are difficult to master. Coticules are some of the most difficult stones to master, and for a new honer even more difficult.

Once mastered the OP should be able to hone a razor with synthetic stones, to shave ready in 15-20 minutes.

The good news is the OP is probably very close, it appears he can fully set a bevel, is honing all the way to the edge and is able to lay down a nice even stria pattern.

He just needs to simplify and stop trying to throw more stones at the problem, especially natural stones of questionable quality and grit.

It’s interesting how guy’s, who already know how to hone, poo-poo magnification for new honers. A new honer needs as much magnification as he needs, to understand what is happening to the bevel/edge at the stone.

A cheap, USB scope is a great way to learn and understand what you are doing wrong and or right. I am currently coaching 3 guys how to hone, on-line using a USB scope and micrographs, and have taught 50-60 guys from all over the world in the past few years, that I would never have had the opportunity to teach in person.