Thuringian Whetstone is this a good one?

[Badkarma]

Thuringian Natural Whetstone - fine - Toolshop - OutTac Gear - High Quality European Cutlery since 1996!

Please advise still new to honing. Thank you

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

 

[Rugger007]

I have never heard of this company. I’m of the opinion that you would be better served purchasing from a member here on the BST or a reputable seller. Hones

 

[alex1921]

A company that sells " Escher stone" honestly isn't a company I would do business with. As we all know Escher was a company not a stone or mine or strata name. So just hype and sell the name because it sells better than Thuringian.
Now back to your question, I never tried those modern Thuris, some people like them and others say they are not as good as the old ones.

 

[RayClem]

A company that sells " Escher stone" honestly isn't a company I would do business with. As we all know Escher was a company not a stone or mine or strata name. So just hype and sell the name because it sells better than Thuringian.
Now back to your question, I never tried those modern Thuris, some people like them and others say they are not as good as the old ones.

The web site referenced by the original poster never mentions "Escher" anywhere in the advertising. It only mentions Thuringian.

Timbertools does offer some small stones that they claim to be original Eschers, but they are very clear in distinguishing their larger modern-mined Thuringian stones from those smaller stones. They never claim the larger stones to be Eschers.

Like any natural stone used for honing, Eschers vary in color, hardness, and fineness. Thus, not every Escher is going to provide the same honing properties for razors. Likewise, modern Thuringians will have similar variations. Thus, depending on the two specific stones being compared, an modern Thuringian specimen might be better or worse than a vintage Escher specimen, depending upon the characteristics you desire. A modern-mined stone will be 1/3 the cost of an Escher of similar size.

When you purchase a modern synthetic hone, you know it will perform similarly to other hones of the same brand and specifications. When you purchase any natural stone, you are never quite sure how it will perform. Chinese Guangxi hones are not the only natural hones of "indeterminate grit".

Thus, my recommendation to anyone new to honing is to purchase synthetic hones from reputable manufacturers (Norton, Naniwa, Shapton, Suehiro). If you have issues using them, there will be other with similar hones who can provide assistance. Once you have learned to use synthetics, then move on to natural hones if you desire. Skills learned by using synthetics will be invaluable when you being learning how to use naturals.

 

[Badkarma]

Wow thank you. This is some great advice.

 

[alex1921]

The web site referenced by the original poster never mentions "Escher" anywhere in the advertising. It only mentions Thuringian.

Timbertools does offer some small stones that they claim to be original Eschers, but they are very clear in distinguishing their larger modern-mined Thuringian stones from those smaller stones. They never claim the larger stones to be Eschers.

Like any natural stone used for honing, Eschers vary in color, hardness, and fineness. Thus, not every Escher is going to provide the same honing properties for razors. Likewise, modern Thuringians will have similar variations. Thus, depending on the two specific stones being compared, an modern Thuringian specimen might be better or worse than a vintage Escher specimen, depending upon the characteristics you desire. A modern-mined stone will be 1/3 the cost of an Escher of similar size.

When you purchase a modern synthetic hone, you know it will perform similarly to other hones of the same brand and specifications. When you purchase any natural stone, you are never quite sure how it will perform. Chinese Guangxi hones are not the only natural hones of "indeterminate grit".

Thus, my recommendation to anyone new to honing is to purchase synthetic hones from reputable manufacturers (Norton, Naniwa, Shapton, Suehiro). If you have issues using them, there will be other with similar hones who can provide assistance. Once you have learned to use synthetics, then move on to natural hones if you desire. Skills learned by using synthetics will be invaluable when you being learning how to use naturals.

I should have used the reply button. I was replying to the post above mine with the link to the timber tools.
So what exactly is the original Escher stone they are selling? The one that they say it's a block of thuri from communist Germany etc?

 

[Twelvefret]

So, the Thuringian from Timber Tools arrived and I've been using it for a couple of months. I've used it with slurry and also with running water. The result is a blade I can use to shave. That's all I care about.

 

[Gamma]

Escher was a brand name.
If a stone does not have an Escher label, it is not an Escher stone.
Timber Tools sells stone without any sort of label on it. Regardless of the claim, factually, they do not sell Escher stones. The claims they make about the stone being cut from the same block of stone.... blah blah blah, I read all of that as marketing fluff; ther is no possibility of proving or disproving it. Personally, if that was my block of stone, I would have requested provenance that it was originally owned or used by the original Escher company. But we don't have that; TT has been selling that story for well over a decade - that last block of alleged 'Escher' stone must have yielded thousands of hones. Long while ago, I bought one of the TT stones from someone in the conmunity. I was not impressed. Had I found it worthwhile, I would have bought a box of them.

Eschers are Thuringian stones. But stones found by the side of the road in Thuringia are also Thuringians. Tacking the name 'Thuringian' onto the box doesn't make the stone an Escher, or an equivalent to an Escher.

There is a belief that a lot of the stones being sold now as 'Thuringians' are not from the same location that the Eschers and other stones the straight razor community refers to as a Thuringians. I read that the location is 'nearby' the old quarries - but in geology, a stone from 'nearby' might as well be from 1/2 way around the world.
Thuringia is a location on a map. Not really a type of stone. When we refer to stones as Thuringians we are basically, even if incorrectly so, saying that the stone is on par with an authentic 'Escher'. The reality is that not every stone from Thuringia is a razor hone.

What's in a name?
Nothing unless the stone performs as alleged.
Notice the seller made vague non-quantifiable performance claims.
Notice the stone is sold as Thuringian but no further info is given.

I may be wrong, but given the online retail climate - I would guess these are on par with the MST stones that you can find online sold as 'Thuringians' - some sellers and "flavor of the day boys' say they're razor finishers. Others say they're 8k. I have only one small piece and it is not, IMO, razor finisher quality or equivalent to 8k. Most definitely and more importantly, it is not in the league of hones that were branded 'Escher' or 'SRD" or ' #44 Fox" or whatever; those were 'razor hones - Eschers, and stones of that ilk, were cut from culled slabs that were evaluated to be of a particular quality. Eschers will vary in personalities, but they were chosen and processed with appears to have been a good bit of quality control in the scheme of things. I have never ever held an authentic labeled Escher that would not hone a well developed razors edge to a fine degree of shave-readyness; same for SRDs, Fox stones, etc.
I have not found any of these mystery Thuris to perform nearly as well.

 

[Twelvefret]

"
Thuringian Waterhones
Vintage thuringian hones

Thuringian waterhones are well known for honing straight razors for more than 200 years. The most known name in connection with these hones is the company Escher, which was a trading company, existing from the late 18th century till the mid of 20th century. The Escher company exported the thuringian razor hones with their label all around the world, mainly to the United States.

All original vintage thuringian hones including all Escher labeled hones have been mined in the area of Sonneberg/ Steinach in the Thuringian mountains by small whetstone mining companies.

The hones themselves are slates and the quarries consist of several hundred different slate layers. The whetstone layers that were finally considered as best were devided into the different qualities:

yellow green – light green – blue green and (dark) blue.

All stones you will find at the following pages are vintage hones, mostly cut by the original miners/distributers in the years between approx. 1800 and 1950.

Most of the whetstones are so-called bout stones, cut ends or leftovers from the original mined stones. Stones with irregular form, benchstones that could not be sold as perfect sized and quality benchstones in the past because of defects on the backside or small chips or crack lines on the sides. Sometimes also only thin layersare found.

Some of the stones vary in thickness more or less, means they do not lay totally flat on a the table for honing, the working surface and the backside is not always parallel.

The hones are natural stones, so little hairline cracks or small outbreaks on the hone sides or back could appear."

Thuringian Waterhones

1. So, Escher was a trading company.
2. Original Thuringian stones included those Escher acquired as well as stones sold otherwise.

This tells me it would be unwise to think only Thuringians in a box with a label are authentic.

If the Timber Tools is a dishonest company selling fake stones, that would be sad. I will no speculate. I will simply say if the one I acquired is a fake, its a damn good fake.

 

[Rugger007]

The “thuri” stones from timber tools have been talked about many times before. I had one and it was not even close to being on par with a labeled Escher.

[QUOTE I will simply say if the one I acquired is a fake, its a damn good fake.[/QUOTE]

Do you have a Escher to which you can compare your claim to? I have used the TT stone and it was not even close. That said, if you get a decent edge from it cool beans. I’m wondering though, if you hone with your blasphemous films and get a very acceptable shaving edge and then go to your TT stone, are you doing enough passes to where you are actually changing the edge.

I will say for certain that the stones offered by Gabriele are just as capable as a labeled Escher. I have had a yellow-green, blue-green and mottled black thuri from him and all were top shelf stones.

 

[Twelvefret]

No, I have just two stones. Lapped then wiry wet/dry sand paper. I can see any more stones coming my way.

Yes, I am satisfied that I am doing enough passes. I’ve gone from slurry to clear as well as holding the Thuringian under running and dripping water as I watched on videos . I do the number of passes as the videos

I never go back to the films after 3 micron. I don’t use diamond balsa anymore. Just a Illinois horse hide and linen strop.

Maybe you just got a bad one and I got a good one. It’s reasonable that could happen since not all stones are the same. Maybe I have a better touch. Who knows??

Other times I use the Coticule. When I first got it I made a slurry, but lately just holding in my hand under running water with X strokes. Took me a week for the muscle memory to be established

Sure glad I didn’t start out with stones. Films are what the novice needs to produce shave ready edge the first time and every time. You can argue all you want, but no set of stones in the hands of a new honer is going to be as consistent and repeatable as films.

 

[Mr.Tee]

All Eschers are Thuringian’s, but not all Thuringians’s are Eschers.

 

[Twelvefret]

All Eschers are Thuringian’s, but not all Thuringians’s are Eschers.

Yes!!!

 

[tonkhang]

I appreciate your explanation about Thuringian stone .

 

[fatwade]

Actually no easy topics...today there are a lot of sellers claiming to sell "Thuringian Water Hones". Fact is many of them are not qualified to use this name tag however you turn around the story......there ist MST and there is FMR, there are stones sold from Herbertz as Razor Water Hones (the word Thuringian is not appearing there).....the stones sold by tool shop is listed as #292715 which is also the real Herbertz article number, so no "Thuringian Water Hone" but a "Natural Water hone"....

Right now there are two legit sources selling real "Thuringian Water Hones" one of the source was mentioned at Post #10.....the other one is a US seller. Timbertools actually seem to had "real" Thuringian stones in their store (the small ones) i dont know if they still sell "old Stock" however the price is too expensive for the size....

 

[SliceOfLife]

The stones posted at the start are not Thuringians... probably Mueller stone. It's a mediocre, VERY soft slate... I'd say 4k-8k range. Not a finisher unless you shave off Norton 8k. This is also what Timbertools is selling as Thuringian. Both claims are misleading... I'd dare say deliberate lies.

What Timbertools sells as "Escher" IS actually Thuringian. I imported 50 or so of them from Mueller (who own some of the mines if memory serves, but don't work them... they work a mine a few miles away... that's where their "German Waterstone" which I call Mueller stone and people try to call Thuringian (to rip people off).


Long story short...

Mueller had a TINY amount of Thuringian hones in the 5-6" range... sold out of these a decade ago. Timbertools bought them out and sold them for like 500% what they paid. Mueller had a decent amount of 110x20mm Thuringians. (These are what I bought), Timbertools bought a lot of these and that's what they are selling as Escher now. I don't know if Mueller still has any, but they were in the $20-30 range when I bought them (had to buy a lot and pay with wire Xfer though since they're in Germany)... my guess is Timbertools bought them out though, same as with the bigger hones.

Now the MUELLER stone... which looks like a gritty DB Thuringian, MAAAAANY people (not just Timber) sell as a Thuringian (fraudulently), etc... is sold by Mueller just as a German Water Hone. It was like $15 for an 8x2" piece when I bought one. I'd avoid those if you want a razor finisher.

Like others said, your best bet is buying from BST here... can probably get one of the 5x1" boxed ones for a lot less than Timbertools charges for their 4" ones.

Is Peter still around? He was a member here who had permission to forage around the mines and would sell Thuringian bouts he dug up and finished for people. Had some really pretty rocks too.

 

[Twelvefret]

I sent TT an email explaining that members are saying their business practices are fraudulent, that they are selling fake stones. If I get a reply. I will post.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Also, I can't say 100% but I'm like 99% sure of my memory of Mueller's site when I did they order. There was a picture of a big pile of stones that looked like the 4x1" stones were basically a big freaking pile they found inside of a mine or stones that the guys mining decades prior (probably for Escher) had dug up and cut. My assumption was they were trying to cut them for 5x1" celebrated hones, but if they wound up being a bit too short to sell as 125mm (the spec for the celebrated boxed hones), they got set in this pile where they sat until Mueller started selling them. That was just my theory though. It appeared to me they were just pulling from the pile, shrink wrapping and selling.


Oh and I see people have linked to Peter's site a few times already. I've never used one of his stones, but they definitely look legit in pictures and MANY guys who I trust know a Thuringian have used them and said they're the real deal.

 

[alex1921]

No label means it ain't Escher no matter what they say. Heartbreaking stories of stones hidden and I dont know what is just that. Stories.

 

[Twelvefret]

Escher was a distributor. It's been said and now repeated, all Thuringians were not Escher's.