What's new

Thuringian Whetstone is this a good one?

Despite it being said many times it's obviously not obvious since they are selling non labeled stones as "Original Escher".
 
They are selling stones as Eschers that have no label. Thus it is NOT an Escher. I am not selling a stone calling it an Escher, they are. A nice nakayama without a maruka stamp isn't a maruka stone. And so on and so on.
As long as sellers are selling stones without labels and keep calling them Eschers I will be screaming and pointing at them.
If you or anybody else bought a stone from them doesn't concern me. What concerns me is the BS practices of certain sellers, not only TT but on eBay etc. By speaking out I am trying to prevent new members from getting duped.
I re read the link you provided and I cant see anywhere where they state that their stones are NOT Eschers because they DONT have a label. What I see is them referring to " trying to make a man made Escher stone in the near future"

This is from their website, I dont see a sticker.

Screen Shot 2019-04-07 at 5.55.01 PM.png
 
Ok. One last try. The picture I posted from their website. Their website. Does it say Escher or it does not?
Escher slurry stone. That's what it says. If you want to deny it that's OK but unless I have lost the ability to read and comprehend I still see "Escher slurry stone" writer above the picture.

Escher bought stones, they probably had to pass some quality or whatever and slapped their label on them thus making them Escher. That label carries great value as we can see with unlabelled thuris selling for a lot less than labelled Escher. Again, not my idea but mr market decided that.

That's all I am talking about. Not if their Thuris work or dont. Doesn't matter.
Can't sell a Thuri as an Escher unless it has a label. No label no Escher.
The stone in their picture has no label and above the picture they say Escher. Call it false advertising, call it misrepresentation. Don't use the word Escher and I will stop posting.

I point out sellers who misrepresent their product. I feel a moral obligation to do so. You may have noticed my endless posts regarding the Russian guy selling fake stamped Jnats and his eBay practices.




I rest my case :)
 
Yep, Says Escher sharpening stone right there.
Escher slurry stones never had labels so I'm sure they will keep pounding on that one as it cannot be proved or disproved.
I'm sure this will change in the next while.
 
From what I see at the link, they are selling a stock of stones that they certainly ARE calling "original Escher" stones. As has already been mentioned multiple times, there's no way to really prove or disprove the claim. But I agree that calling them Escher stones without a label is no good, IMO. They are trying to get top dollar, whether it's true or not. Banking on the fact that someone will want to take a chance. They also sell a different "Thuringian water stone" at the link, and from what I see, THAT is the one they are claiming comes from "a nearby mine" and is harder.
 
Strictly speaking I have less of a problem with them calling the Thuringians "Eschers" than calling the Mueller stone "Thuringian"... even though the latter is probably more technically correct. I think it's more an issue of intent. Calling the Thuringian rock "Escher" serves the purpose of distinguishing it from the Mueller rock they call Thuringian (To be fair it's a solution to a problem they themselves created, but there ya go) as the same stone that Escher was selling. Whereas calling the Mueller rock "Thuringian" may be technically correct (it may be from Thuringia), but is to my eyes deliberately misleading since "Thuringian" is a KNOWN and popular rock in their customer base and that is NOT the rock they are selling.

In short, I have a problem with both, but I can understand wanting to use the name "Escher" to assure people what they are getting is actually Thuringian... but calling a rock that is absolutely 100% NOT what your customers know as Thuringian a Thuringian is just dishonest. Maybe I'm just calloused to the whole "Escher" label... because I never expect any "Escher" I see for sale to be a guaranteed "Escher" unless I see the label on the stone myself (even then... wasn't some UK seller briefly counterfeiting labels and saying in tiny print the rocks they were selling had "reproduction" labels).
 
One of the sites mentions these were selling escher hones as partners, flagship brands or subsidiaries:
  1. Escher & Co. (E & Co.)
  2. J.G Escher & Sohn(s) (JGES)
  3. S.R. Droescher, Inc.
  4. The Genuine Water Hone
  5. The Celebrated Water Razor Hone
  6. Karl Bracher Jr.(s)
  7. Fox Cutlery (The Fox No.44)
  8. Bosenberg Trinks & Co (B. T. Co)
  9. Schleifmittel AG vormals Pike & Escher/ Sonneberg in Thüringen
  10. Star Brand
  11. Biber
I have a star brand headed my way, don't care if it's escher or not as long as I get the edge.
 
Estima labeled ones exist as well. They sold a carving kit with a 4" Thuri hone inside under their own label.
Also Boker (Just sold a Boker labeled one)
I think there's probably a half dozen or better additional US importer labels they were put under too (at least two I've had and sold in the past... can't recall offhand the names... one is mentioned in one of the turn of the century barber guides though)

edit: I think one was sold as "Best Hone in The World" by some importer.

Also "Apex" made reconstituted Thuris... I think they sold natural ones too... does anyone know for sure?
 
Last edited:
Estima labeled ones exist as well. They sold a carving kit with a 4" Thuri hone inside under their own label.
Also Boker (Just sold a Boker labeled one)
I think there's probably a half dozen or better additional US importer labels they were put under too (at least two I've had and sold in the past... can't recall offhand the names... one is mentioned in one of the turn of the century barber guides though)

edit: I think one was sold as "Best Hone in The World" by some importer.

Also "Apex" made reconstituted Thuris... I think they sold natural ones too... does anyone know for sure?
Not sure about Apex, but the ones you mentioned. Were they selling eschers or other thuringians? Any idea about star brand?
 
I wouldn't think any thing other than Escher label was an Escher. If memory serves, Escher was an importer/exporter... so any one marketing Thuringians and claiming to be a Partner of Escher likely just means they bought from the same mining company as Escher... which every vintage Thuringian of course did... but I don't know for sure.

Don't think I've ever seen a star brand, but if you've got a picture, it might jog my memory.
 
I recently purchase one of the Timbertools Thuringian hones for testing purposes. I do not have an Escher stone against which to compare it, but I do have a variety of other natural and synthetic hones. The stone I purchased was the 2" x 8" stone.

1. The stone was well packaged, but it was not lapped.... not even close on either side. I had to spend about 1 hour going all the way back to 220 grit to remove the saw marks from the stone surface. I finishes the lapping with a Atoma 1200 plate. I am glad I purchased the 2" wide stone rather than the larger one as that would have made lapping even more of a chore. For the price, I believe they should have made some effort at removing saw marks.

2. After lapping, I do consider this to be a "razor grade" hone. There were no inclusions, cracks, chips, etc. that would have affected its use on razors.

3. The stone I received was a dark blue color. It was hard, but not super hard. You can raise a slurry fairly easily.

3. I have a tough beard and need a very sharp edge to shave. I can shave off a 12K synthetic or a natural that provides a similar level of finish. However, I prefer finishing at a finer level, 15K and higher. My typical finishing hones are Greek Vermio, a fine Imperia La Roccia, a Zulu Grey, a Shapton Glass 16K and a Suehiro G20K.

I estimate that the Thuringian was on the order of 10-12K. I was not able to get the edge to pop arm hairs 1/4" above skin level, although it would easily shave hair at skin level. It also was not keen enough to shave my beard, as expected based on the AHT. However, by doing about 40 laps on CrOx followed by 20 laps each on 0.5, 0.25, and 0.1 micron CBN and then normal stropping on cloth and leather, the edge gave a nice shave, both keen and smooth.

For those of you able to shave off an 8K Norton or Naniwa or a Coticule edge without using CrOx, CBN or diamond afterward, I believe the Thuringian I received would easily be suitable for finishing razors. However, if you have a tough beard like mine, the Thuringian would only be suitable as a finishing hone if you use pasted strops afterward.

If I use the Suehiro 20K (which is 0.5 micron), I still use the pasted CBN strops to further refine the edge, although the CrOx is no longer needed. CrOx is a lot less expensive than the Suehiro, so I recommend that for those on a budget.
 
I recently purchase one of the Timbertools Thuringian hones for testing purposes. I do not have an Escher stone against which to compare it, but I do have a variety of other natural and synthetic hones. The stone I purchased was the 2" x 8" stone.

1. The stone was well packaged, but it was not lapped.... not even close on either side. I had to spend about 1 hour going all the way back to 220 grit to remove the saw marks from the stone surface. I finishes the lapping with a Atoma 1200 plate. I am glad I purchased the 2" wide stone rather than the larger one as that would have made lapping even more of a chore. For the price, I believe they should have made some effort at removing saw marks.

2. After lapping, I do consider this to be a "razor grade" hone. There were no inclusions, cracks, chips, etc. that would have affected its use on razors.

3. The stone I received was a dark blue color. It was hard, but not super hard. You can raise a slurry fairly easily.

3. I have a tough beard and need a very sharp edge to shave. I can shave off a 12K synthetic or a natural that provides a similar level of finish. However, I prefer finishing at a finer level, 15K and higher. My typical finishing hones are Greek Vermio, a fine Imperia La Roccia, a Zulu Grey, a Shapton Glass 16K and a Suehiro G20K.

I estimate that the Thuringian was on the order of 10-12K. I was not able to get the edge to pop arm hairs 1/4" above skin level, although it would easily shave hair at skin level. It also was not keen enough to shave my beard, as expected based on the AHT. However, by doing about 40 laps on CrOx followed by 20 laps each on 0.5, 0.25, and 0.1 micron CBN and then normal stropping on cloth and leather, the edge gave a nice shave, both keen and smooth.

For those of you able to shave off an 8K Norton or Naniwa or a Coticule edge without using CrOx, CBN or diamond afterward, I believe the Thuringian I received would easily be suitable for finishing razors. However, if you have a tough beard like mine, the Thuringian would only be suitable as a finishing hone if you use pasted strops afterward.

If I use the Suehiro 20K (which is 0.5 micron), I still use the pasted CBN strops to further refine the edge, although the CrOx is no longer needed. CrOx is a lot less expensive than the Suehiro, so I recommend that for those on a budget.

I got the same stone, but no saw marks. Lapping time was much less than expected.

12k rings a bell. That’s the grit I was expecting.

Agreed that the stone arrived well packed. It’s nice to have the wooden box with room for the slurry stones.
 
I have heard in the past that Thuringian hones (including Exchers) are typically from 10-12K with a few of the better Eschers up around 15K. I think mine is probably around the 10K level.

I have a variety of hones that I estimate to be around the 12K level: Naniwa 12K, Chinese Guangxi, and Tsushima Ocean Blue. I can shave off all of those stones and edges will pop arm hair 1/4" above skin level without using pasted strops. My Thuringian is closer to a 10K Naniwa and not suitable for producing a shave ready edge to my expectations.

However, since natural stones vary, yours might well be at the 12K level. I am glad to see that yours was lapped better than mine.

I am not claiming that the Timbertools Thuringian hones are the equivalent of an Escher; not even Timbertools makes that claim. However, for those who do not need an edge as keen as I do, I believe the modern mined Thuringians are an alternative worth considering. As with all natural hones whether Thuringians, Coticules, ILR, Guangxi, Welsh slates, Greek Vermio, or Japanese naturals, etc. they will vary in quality, so when you buy a natural hone, you are always taking a risk that you won't get exactly what you hope for.
 
In short, I have a problem with both, but I can understand wanting to use the name "Escher" to assure people what they are getting is actually Thuringian... but calling a rock that is absolutely 100% NOT what your customers know as Thuringian a Thuringian is just dishonest. Maybe I'm just calloused to the whole "Escher" label... because I never expect any "Escher" I see for sale to be a guaranteed "Escher" unless I see the label on the stone myself (even then... wasn't some UK seller briefly counterfeiting labels and saying in tiny print the rocks they were selling had "reproduction" labels).

There were quite a few sellers doing that. They would age, fade and partially rub the label off. All kinds a crap. I long ago gave up on grail stones. I just like finding them in the wild and trying them out. That's the real fun for me. Just cost me 15$ to take a rock to a granite shed and have them flatten, camfer and cut to size. I have some that I'd stack up against any Jnat , labelled Escher or lost coticule vein....their worth to anyone else.....$0.
 
One of the sites mentions these were selling escher hones as partners, flagship brands or subsidiaries:
  1. Escher & Co. (E & Co.)
  2. J.G Escher & Sohn(s) (JGES)
  3. S.R. Droescher, Inc.
  4. The Genuine Water Hone
  5. The Celebrated Water Razor Hone
  6. Karl Bracher Jr.(s)
  7. Fox Cutlery (The Fox No.44)
  8. Bosenberg Trinks & Co (B. T. Co)
  9. Schleifmittel AG vormals Pike & Escher/ Sonneberg in Thüringen
  10. Star Brand
  11. Biber
I have a star brand headed my way, don't care if it's escher or not as long as I get the edge.
I just wanted to verify, that anything in this list will "officially" be escher if it's labeled as such, or Thuri otherwise? I thought i had read once "the genuine water hone" was an escher...but as we can see there is a lot of confusion :)
 
I just wanted to verify, that anything in this list will "officially" be escher if it's labeled as such, or Thuri otherwise? I thought i had read once "the genuine water hone" was an escher...but as we can see there is a lot of confusion :)
Replies so far suggest escher is labelled escher. Otherwise it's a thuri which may or may not be as good as an escher.
Like a non stamped nagura.
 
I just wanted to verify, that anything in this list will "officially" be escher if it's labeled as such, or Thuri otherwise? I thought i had read once "the genuine water hone" was an escher...but as we can see there is a lot of confusion :)

To me it has to have an Escher label, the Escher cup etc.
Here one stone is in the BT Schleifmittel box but inside it has Escher label, actually 2,
so I call it an Escher.

The yellow box is SRD, yes he bought the stones from Escher but there is no Escher label anywhere so to me it's a SRD Thuringian. That's all.
IMG_2835.JPG
fullsizeoutput_26e.jpeg
fullsizeoutput_26b.jpeg
IMG_2839.JPG
 
it was nice to see the PDF from Strazors, in the past i have been told that the only difference between colors of Thuri's is that the darker it is the harder it is. My DB "Thuri" is harder, which i suspected that it primarily meant just meant hones slower. The PDF said that the yellow green had the finest/most homogeneous particles in it which is why they are the most sought after. good to know that if i find a different Thuri/Escher i should find a higher performance possibly.
 
In my view, the only way to find out if you like a particular hone is to purchase one and try it on your razors. With a synthetic hone, you can probably borrow one from a friend and try it, but since every natural stone is slightly different, you cannot say that any natural stone, even an Escher, will perform in a certain way. Even Escher stones vary in color, hardness, grit size and uniformity just as any other natural stone will do. Since Escher was a reputable company, any stone with an Escher label should be suitable for razor us; but that still does not mean that a specific stone will perform in the way you expect.
 
Top Bottom