Let’s start with a little background, then I’ll cover my initial plan, the problem, then where I need your help. Apologies for the length/detail - but I know how these threads often go, with folks randomly chiming in with their favorite carry gun, or providing options that don’t meet the OP’s requirements, often due to the OP lacking detail in their initial post.
Background:
My county (and state) have the most aggressive restrictions on guns and CCW permits. No mags over 10 rounds, no single action guns (all 1911 style guns included), no red dot sights, no lasers, etc. it’s annoying, but it is better than nothing, so I’m just grateful to be able to carry. The dilemma I have however is in one particularly tricky limitation for a gear junkie like me, which is that I can only have TWO guns listed on my CCW license. I can change the guns every two years when I re-qualify, or I can pay a fee, do a lot of paperwork make several 1 hour trips in both directions and wait a few months and swap a gun on the permit after re-qualifying, which is a big hassle. As a result, significant thought is required in finding the optimal 2 gun solution.
Original plan:
My plan was to use a Glock 43 as my primary and a Kahr P380 as a secondary. Here’s my thought process - I chose the Glock 43since it‘s a great size, plenty of punch, with magguts +2 kit’s the mags carry 8 rounds, and it’s considerably shorter than a G43X - and despite its tiny size, I can rapid-fire and empty the mag into baseball sized groups at 12 yards - which i’m quite proud of. I’ve got a drawer full of all of the top holster options on the market - and with the Philster Enigma setup I have for it, I can carry it without a belt, and in sweats/gym shorts in total comfort/concealment. I know there are other neat options like the Sig P365, but with 20 years of scratching my booger hook on Glock triggers, the rapid fire accuracy I’ve honed in with glocks over those two decades, the thousands of rounds I’ve put through this G43 and the investment I’ve made in holsters, mags, etc I have zero interest in entertaining other options. The Kahr P380 was picked to have a”carry gun, when I’m not carrying a gun” so to speak since at under 10 ounces it absolutely disappears in a pocket, ankle or IWB and can be carried anywhere legal without printing, unless I’m in a Speedo. If I felt like it (although would likely never do it) - it would be an excellent “backup” to the primary, or could be a good ankle gun on a road trip (quick draw while seated) - as for a day long drive - I’d be carrying the G43 on the hip or small of back for comfort, vs AIWB. With Magguts +1, the flush mags carry 7 rounds of .380 - and with 1 in the tube, 8 rounds of top grade hollow points, with a quick reload at the ready is more than enough for my comfort level as a trained civilian defending myself in public - so let’s not go down the lack of power rathole, there are dozens of videos online showing .380 acp rounds meeting the FBI standard, and I have confidence in my shot placement under pressure, which I believe to be most important. That said, I wouldn’t want to carry anything less than hot .380 acp rounds.
The Problem:
This is my third Kahr. I know there are legions of vocal Kahr fanboys, and people who swear they put gobs of trouble free rounds through them - I am not one of them. I previously had a Kahr P9 and PM9, and had reliability issues with both. Yes I kept them clean, yes I ran them wet as they’re designed, and yes they went back to Kahr. I sold the PM9 when the G42 came out and bought a G42, then sold the P9 when the G43 came out, both at significant losses as few folks around here want to buy Kahr’s. Having heard so much on forums about Kahr QC getting better, and hearing so many people rave about their Kahn’s, and being absolutely entranced by the ridiculous size and weight of the P380,I took a gamble and bought one. Long story short - it had a critical failure and has been at the Kahr factory for over a month as I tap out this post. I hear that if you have a problem gun, it often requires TWO trips back to the factory, before they “run flawlessly”. Well, that‘s not confidence inspiring, and the several hundred dollars in ammo I’ve spent breaking it in while fighting confidence sapping issues, is also souring me of the gun. My qualification date was last week, and without the Kahr P380 in hand, I shot my qualification with the G43 as planned, and then the G42 as my second gun. While I love the G42, it has the same manual of arms as the G43, it’s been 100% reliable and it‘s one of my “hold onto forever“ pistols - I don’t see a compelling value to it being the second gun on the permit, as it doesn’t offer much of a size advantage over the G43. Sure, it’s lighter and smaller and there most certainly is a difference, but for me, it’s too big to comfortable pocket or ankle carry. It can be done, but I just won’t and while I have magguts +1’s on the mags, they don’t make a flush +2, so with the G43, the bigger 9mm punch the extra round and the fact that I shoot the G43 much better (grip is too small on the 42), I feel this gun is a waste of my second slot.
Now here’s where I’d love your .02:
The Kahr will eventually come back from the factory - but it may/may not be fixed. It has a full lifetime warranty, and I would guess that with enough trips back and forth to the factory, at some point the gun (or a gun they replace it with) will be reliable enough to carry. That said, it irks me to no end that the company can’t seem to build a decent/reliable product - and according to my LGS, I am a huge exception in how much I actually shoot my carry guns, and they feel with the 1-2k rounds I year I put through my carry guns (minimum) I’ll have issues with the Kahr from time to time. Despite what I read from Kahr fans online… unless this one trip back to Kahr solves the issue and it becomes dead nuts reliable after this, I’m not sure I’ll ever fully trust a Kahr again, so I’ve already begun looking at and acquiring replacement options.
While we can get essentially any pistol in California that isn’t on the bs roster, it usually has to be done via police officers looking to make an extra buck, or folks moving into the state who also want to make $, so while you can get a new (but previously registered) Sig P365, Ruger LCP Max, etc - they’re usually $1,200+. I’m not opposed to doing this, despite it irking me, but generally would rather buy a $1k+ gun on the roster that’s worth $1k+, versus a $500 gun for $1,200. So I did just that… twice.
So here’s where I’m at. The G43 is the primary, but as a secondary I now have four options:
1. Make the Kahr P380 work, regardless of the hassle. Ultimately (on paper at least) based on it’s double action trigger (safer in the pocket than a Glock/LCP trigger), capacity, accuracy and absurdly small size - it’s the best second gun for my needs… but it’s moot if it’s unreliable. I do feel like eventually I could get it there, but I foresee a long hassle on that road….
2. Leave the Glock 42 on the permit, and likely not use it much.
3. Put my soon to have (won’t have it in hand for 40 days though, as you can only buy one handgun every 30 days in California, and there is a 10 day waiting period after that) ultra rare and near impossible to find Kimber K6S Deep Cover on the permit. It’s 23oz, so it’s definitely not a pocket/ankle gun, but it’s the size of a J-frame, the action and trigger are shockingly good, it has exceptional night sights on it, and despite being j frame size, it packs an extra round and carries 6 rounds in the wheel. Aside from a Korth, it’s the finest made revolver I’ve ever held, and I’ve watched videos of folks hitting gongs with this little 2” at 100 yards, which I have no doubt I will be able to replicate with some practice/training. This does not fit the same role as I had initially intended for a second gun on the permit, and while reloads are likely not feasible in a self defense situation, especially with a revolver, 6 rounds of .357 magnum is a prodigious amount of stopping power. I’ve also seen the hard data - .357 magnum out of a 2” still has significantly more power/energy than a 9mm, and you can put some black bear stopping rounds in that K6S and have an outstanding backwoods gun. In city limits, a stout .38 +P, or a mid-power .357 mag, with 6 rounds at the ready and next to zero chance of the gun not firing would give me complete confidence in any hostile situation inside of 15 yards with less than 3 “bad guys.” If you haven’t held one, I also can‘t gush enough about how amazing they look/feel and the level of quality they exude. It’s a gun I will anxiously look forward to shooting every time I hit the range, and should be quite pleasant to shoot, especially in .38 special. For me, carrying this gun would be akin to wearing an ultra premium mechanical watch - there are smart/digital watches that are more practical, just like there are more practical CCW guns (striker fired polymer guns), but they lack the soul, quality and ultra premium feel of the old school, ultra-quality mechanical options. It’s like electric or cartridge shaving vs a straight razor. Just like a fine mechanical watch, I have no doubts it will accomplish the same task as it’s more modern bottom feeders, but it does so with only 2/3 the ammo of the G43, and slower reloads. It likely is more comfortable to carry and will likely print less, but the G43 is a comfortable gun, and I fear after the initial excitement wears off, I might not carry it much. After all, the numbers are hard to ignore - 50% more ammo, 5oz less weight, and instant reloads for the G43 vs the K6S.
4. Put my soon to have (9 days) Smith & Wesson 340PD .357 mag on the permit to replace the G42. I went into my LGS fully intending on getting the K6S, but I’m a big S&W wheel gun fan (I have 6) and I figured I should at least wrap my hand around the top of the line 340PD wonder gun and see what S&W’s top of the line carry wheel gun brought to the party. J frames generally don’t interest me all that much, and I’m pretty snobby about my wheel guns, so unless they have a little “flavor“ they don’t make the cut for me. That, and the Kimber is so darn good looking, well made and oh mamma that trigger - I figured I’d hold the 340PD for 5 seconds and have them put it back in the case. That didn’t happen. S&W wheel guns can be hit or miss now a days, you generally have the best shot of getting a gem though in the performance center line, or with their high end Scandium guns like this 340PD, but even then, they can be spotty, and given stock of these guns - especially the Scandium guns is just about zero everywhere, you often don’t get the luxury of looking at many and picking a gem. Well, this particular 340PD was a unicorn. While there were a few tooling scratches on the outside tip of the barrel, aside from that - it was the finest J-frame I’d ever handled, and by a country mile. Bank vault lock up on all 5 cylinders - as good as the Kimber and as good as the $4.5k Korth they had in the case next to it. Zero stacking with the trigger, and I mean ZERO - it felt as if it had a world class trigger job done to it. I was mesmerized, and I spent three hours and the gun shop, handling three different K6S’ (the deep cover, the deluxe carry and the standard stainless) next to this 340PD. I really was there for the Kimber, and after handling a K6S and falling in love over a month prior - I knew I had to own one, I hadn’t felt that level of lust/excitement for a gun in a decade and a half. But back to this 340PD - the sirens call just wouldn’t stop. While the Kimber K6S deep cover is almost impossible to find, a perfectly made current production S&W revolver might be even rarer. This 340PD is one neat tool. at only 11 oz it’s barely heavier than the Kahr, it’s absolutely more reliable, and certainly could fill the void as a backup gun on the ankle, or as a ’head to the store in sweat pocket gun’ with ease. .357 mag in an 11oz gun will have considerable recoil - but as a .500 and .460 mag owner and regular shooter, I feel like I could manage it without a material impact to follow up speed performance if I were in the back country and needed the extra oomph, but would likely carry it in .38 special +p most of the time. The high viz fiber optic sight is superb, and this definitely feels like a precision instrument - akin to fine mechanical watch. Now here‘s the but… 5 rounds in the wheel. Many life/death situations involve 2 “bad guys” and with adrenaline pumping, accuracy isn’t going to be pinpoint. Sure, a 5 shot revolver is better than nothing, and the reliability is likely to be flawless with how well this particular example is made/timed - but 5 rounds is 5 rounds. That extra 6th round in the K6S, in a weight i’d carry with .357 magnum, is a material difference. That said - I’d use the two guns for different purposes.
The logic in my head is saying make the Kahr work. It‘s the smallest, lightest and with 7+1 capacity and quick reloads - the better mouse trap to deal with multiple bad guys. The 340 PD will no doubt be more reliable, powerful, fire with contact on the barrel, from a pocket, faster to draw, etc and I like that with 180 grain .357 mag rounds with the right bullet, it‘s a viable (albeit unpleasant) backwoods gun - but the superior ammo capacity and faster reloads of the Kahr, as well as the much smaller footprint, can’t be ignored. The K6S somewhat splits the difference between the two, but it’s 2X heavier, and would serve an entirely different purpose… likely one I don’t need.
So with only 2 guns that could be put on a permit, and one locked in (Glock 43) - what would YOU do. Seems like the best option would be between the Kahr or the 340PD, as either could serve a need unmet by the G43/42 - where as the K6S, not as much. That K6S sure makes my knees wobble though….
Background:
My county (and state) have the most aggressive restrictions on guns and CCW permits. No mags over 10 rounds, no single action guns (all 1911 style guns included), no red dot sights, no lasers, etc. it’s annoying, but it is better than nothing, so I’m just grateful to be able to carry. The dilemma I have however is in one particularly tricky limitation for a gear junkie like me, which is that I can only have TWO guns listed on my CCW license. I can change the guns every two years when I re-qualify, or I can pay a fee, do a lot of paperwork make several 1 hour trips in both directions and wait a few months and swap a gun on the permit after re-qualifying, which is a big hassle. As a result, significant thought is required in finding the optimal 2 gun solution.
Original plan:
My plan was to use a Glock 43 as my primary and a Kahr P380 as a secondary. Here’s my thought process - I chose the Glock 43since it‘s a great size, plenty of punch, with magguts +2 kit’s the mags carry 8 rounds, and it’s considerably shorter than a G43X - and despite its tiny size, I can rapid-fire and empty the mag into baseball sized groups at 12 yards - which i’m quite proud of. I’ve got a drawer full of all of the top holster options on the market - and with the Philster Enigma setup I have for it, I can carry it without a belt, and in sweats/gym shorts in total comfort/concealment. I know there are other neat options like the Sig P365, but with 20 years of scratching my booger hook on Glock triggers, the rapid fire accuracy I’ve honed in with glocks over those two decades, the thousands of rounds I’ve put through this G43 and the investment I’ve made in holsters, mags, etc I have zero interest in entertaining other options. The Kahr P380 was picked to have a”carry gun, when I’m not carrying a gun” so to speak since at under 10 ounces it absolutely disappears in a pocket, ankle or IWB and can be carried anywhere legal without printing, unless I’m in a Speedo. If I felt like it (although would likely never do it) - it would be an excellent “backup” to the primary, or could be a good ankle gun on a road trip (quick draw while seated) - as for a day long drive - I’d be carrying the G43 on the hip or small of back for comfort, vs AIWB. With Magguts +1, the flush mags carry 7 rounds of .380 - and with 1 in the tube, 8 rounds of top grade hollow points, with a quick reload at the ready is more than enough for my comfort level as a trained civilian defending myself in public - so let’s not go down the lack of power rathole, there are dozens of videos online showing .380 acp rounds meeting the FBI standard, and I have confidence in my shot placement under pressure, which I believe to be most important. That said, I wouldn’t want to carry anything less than hot .380 acp rounds.
The Problem:
This is my third Kahr. I know there are legions of vocal Kahr fanboys, and people who swear they put gobs of trouble free rounds through them - I am not one of them. I previously had a Kahr P9 and PM9, and had reliability issues with both. Yes I kept them clean, yes I ran them wet as they’re designed, and yes they went back to Kahr. I sold the PM9 when the G42 came out and bought a G42, then sold the P9 when the G43 came out, both at significant losses as few folks around here want to buy Kahr’s. Having heard so much on forums about Kahr QC getting better, and hearing so many people rave about their Kahn’s, and being absolutely entranced by the ridiculous size and weight of the P380,I took a gamble and bought one. Long story short - it had a critical failure and has been at the Kahr factory for over a month as I tap out this post. I hear that if you have a problem gun, it often requires TWO trips back to the factory, before they “run flawlessly”. Well, that‘s not confidence inspiring, and the several hundred dollars in ammo I’ve spent breaking it in while fighting confidence sapping issues, is also souring me of the gun. My qualification date was last week, and without the Kahr P380 in hand, I shot my qualification with the G43 as planned, and then the G42 as my second gun. While I love the G42, it has the same manual of arms as the G43, it’s been 100% reliable and it‘s one of my “hold onto forever“ pistols - I don’t see a compelling value to it being the second gun on the permit, as it doesn’t offer much of a size advantage over the G43. Sure, it’s lighter and smaller and there most certainly is a difference, but for me, it’s too big to comfortable pocket or ankle carry. It can be done, but I just won’t and while I have magguts +1’s on the mags, they don’t make a flush +2, so with the G43, the bigger 9mm punch the extra round and the fact that I shoot the G43 much better (grip is too small on the 42), I feel this gun is a waste of my second slot.
Now here’s where I’d love your .02:
The Kahr will eventually come back from the factory - but it may/may not be fixed. It has a full lifetime warranty, and I would guess that with enough trips back and forth to the factory, at some point the gun (or a gun they replace it with) will be reliable enough to carry. That said, it irks me to no end that the company can’t seem to build a decent/reliable product - and according to my LGS, I am a huge exception in how much I actually shoot my carry guns, and they feel with the 1-2k rounds I year I put through my carry guns (minimum) I’ll have issues with the Kahr from time to time. Despite what I read from Kahr fans online… unless this one trip back to Kahr solves the issue and it becomes dead nuts reliable after this, I’m not sure I’ll ever fully trust a Kahr again, so I’ve already begun looking at and acquiring replacement options.
While we can get essentially any pistol in California that isn’t on the bs roster, it usually has to be done via police officers looking to make an extra buck, or folks moving into the state who also want to make $, so while you can get a new (but previously registered) Sig P365, Ruger LCP Max, etc - they’re usually $1,200+. I’m not opposed to doing this, despite it irking me, but generally would rather buy a $1k+ gun on the roster that’s worth $1k+, versus a $500 gun for $1,200. So I did just that… twice.
So here’s where I’m at. The G43 is the primary, but as a secondary I now have four options:
1. Make the Kahr P380 work, regardless of the hassle. Ultimately (on paper at least) based on it’s double action trigger (safer in the pocket than a Glock/LCP trigger), capacity, accuracy and absurdly small size - it’s the best second gun for my needs… but it’s moot if it’s unreliable. I do feel like eventually I could get it there, but I foresee a long hassle on that road….
2. Leave the Glock 42 on the permit, and likely not use it much.
3. Put my soon to have (won’t have it in hand for 40 days though, as you can only buy one handgun every 30 days in California, and there is a 10 day waiting period after that) ultra rare and near impossible to find Kimber K6S Deep Cover on the permit. It’s 23oz, so it’s definitely not a pocket/ankle gun, but it’s the size of a J-frame, the action and trigger are shockingly good, it has exceptional night sights on it, and despite being j frame size, it packs an extra round and carries 6 rounds in the wheel. Aside from a Korth, it’s the finest made revolver I’ve ever held, and I’ve watched videos of folks hitting gongs with this little 2” at 100 yards, which I have no doubt I will be able to replicate with some practice/training. This does not fit the same role as I had initially intended for a second gun on the permit, and while reloads are likely not feasible in a self defense situation, especially with a revolver, 6 rounds of .357 magnum is a prodigious amount of stopping power. I’ve also seen the hard data - .357 magnum out of a 2” still has significantly more power/energy than a 9mm, and you can put some black bear stopping rounds in that K6S and have an outstanding backwoods gun. In city limits, a stout .38 +P, or a mid-power .357 mag, with 6 rounds at the ready and next to zero chance of the gun not firing would give me complete confidence in any hostile situation inside of 15 yards with less than 3 “bad guys.” If you haven’t held one, I also can‘t gush enough about how amazing they look/feel and the level of quality they exude. It’s a gun I will anxiously look forward to shooting every time I hit the range, and should be quite pleasant to shoot, especially in .38 special. For me, carrying this gun would be akin to wearing an ultra premium mechanical watch - there are smart/digital watches that are more practical, just like there are more practical CCW guns (striker fired polymer guns), but they lack the soul, quality and ultra premium feel of the old school, ultra-quality mechanical options. It’s like electric or cartridge shaving vs a straight razor. Just like a fine mechanical watch, I have no doubts it will accomplish the same task as it’s more modern bottom feeders, but it does so with only 2/3 the ammo of the G43, and slower reloads. It likely is more comfortable to carry and will likely print less, but the G43 is a comfortable gun, and I fear after the initial excitement wears off, I might not carry it much. After all, the numbers are hard to ignore - 50% more ammo, 5oz less weight, and instant reloads for the G43 vs the K6S.
4. Put my soon to have (9 days) Smith & Wesson 340PD .357 mag on the permit to replace the G42. I went into my LGS fully intending on getting the K6S, but I’m a big S&W wheel gun fan (I have 6) and I figured I should at least wrap my hand around the top of the line 340PD wonder gun and see what S&W’s top of the line carry wheel gun brought to the party. J frames generally don’t interest me all that much, and I’m pretty snobby about my wheel guns, so unless they have a little “flavor“ they don’t make the cut for me. That, and the Kimber is so darn good looking, well made and oh mamma that trigger - I figured I’d hold the 340PD for 5 seconds and have them put it back in the case. That didn’t happen. S&W wheel guns can be hit or miss now a days, you generally have the best shot of getting a gem though in the performance center line, or with their high end Scandium guns like this 340PD, but even then, they can be spotty, and given stock of these guns - especially the Scandium guns is just about zero everywhere, you often don’t get the luxury of looking at many and picking a gem. Well, this particular 340PD was a unicorn. While there were a few tooling scratches on the outside tip of the barrel, aside from that - it was the finest J-frame I’d ever handled, and by a country mile. Bank vault lock up on all 5 cylinders - as good as the Kimber and as good as the $4.5k Korth they had in the case next to it. Zero stacking with the trigger, and I mean ZERO - it felt as if it had a world class trigger job done to it. I was mesmerized, and I spent three hours and the gun shop, handling three different K6S’ (the deep cover, the deluxe carry and the standard stainless) next to this 340PD. I really was there for the Kimber, and after handling a K6S and falling in love over a month prior - I knew I had to own one, I hadn’t felt that level of lust/excitement for a gun in a decade and a half. But back to this 340PD - the sirens call just wouldn’t stop. While the Kimber K6S deep cover is almost impossible to find, a perfectly made current production S&W revolver might be even rarer. This 340PD is one neat tool. at only 11 oz it’s barely heavier than the Kahr, it’s absolutely more reliable, and certainly could fill the void as a backup gun on the ankle, or as a ’head to the store in sweat pocket gun’ with ease. .357 mag in an 11oz gun will have considerable recoil - but as a .500 and .460 mag owner and regular shooter, I feel like I could manage it without a material impact to follow up speed performance if I were in the back country and needed the extra oomph, but would likely carry it in .38 special +p most of the time. The high viz fiber optic sight is superb, and this definitely feels like a precision instrument - akin to fine mechanical watch. Now here‘s the but… 5 rounds in the wheel. Many life/death situations involve 2 “bad guys” and with adrenaline pumping, accuracy isn’t going to be pinpoint. Sure, a 5 shot revolver is better than nothing, and the reliability is likely to be flawless with how well this particular example is made/timed - but 5 rounds is 5 rounds. That extra 6th round in the K6S, in a weight i’d carry with .357 magnum, is a material difference. That said - I’d use the two guns for different purposes.
The logic in my head is saying make the Kahr work. It‘s the smallest, lightest and with 7+1 capacity and quick reloads - the better mouse trap to deal with multiple bad guys. The 340 PD will no doubt be more reliable, powerful, fire with contact on the barrel, from a pocket, faster to draw, etc and I like that with 180 grain .357 mag rounds with the right bullet, it‘s a viable (albeit unpleasant) backwoods gun - but the superior ammo capacity and faster reloads of the Kahr, as well as the much smaller footprint, can’t be ignored. The K6S somewhat splits the difference between the two, but it’s 2X heavier, and would serve an entirely different purpose… likely one I don’t need.
So with only 2 guns that could be put on a permit, and one locked in (Glock 43) - what would YOU do. Seems like the best option would be between the Kahr or the 340PD, as either could serve a need unmet by the G43/42 - where as the K6S, not as much. That K6S sure makes my knees wobble though….