CCW - only 2 guns….

[Razrnewb]

Excellent post my good man. I agree with many of the things you have said and disagree with very little. However, I do have some different perspectives on things when it comes to CCW and firearms ownership for self defense and home defense purposes.

I get exactly what you are saying, about going to the CCW class and seeing the little old grandma or grandpa who is like 80 years old and while holding their pistol in their right hand, but are attempting to pull the trigger with the middle finger on their left hand! And what makes this worse? Is seeing the CCW instructor actually pass them!

Just because they paid?

What we need to understand is, people like that are the anomaly or minority and not the norm when it comes to the general carrying public. However, as is being experienced gun guys, we need to understand, most of the carrying public, while not as bad as that fumbling 80 year old grandma or grandpa, most also, do not have the knowledge, skill set, experiences with firearms and shooting as we do. And they may not ever, as we are also an anomaly and minority with our experience as those without experience.

So how do those who fall into this middle place of the extremes between being to dangerous or unsafe because of age, or frailty, or simply just lack of experience and the extreme of being as knowledgeable in firearms, shooting, tactics, and general overall skill sets as guys like us. How or who determines who should get to Carry a gun for self defense or not? And who determines what is, or isn’t enough training in order to be able to do that?

My questions to you would be?

1. How do you walk into a CCW class and know just by looking, who should be there or not? Or who deserves to stay or be kicked out?

2. If they are brand new to guns with no experience, where do they go after buying a gun, in order to get proficient enough to be able to attend a CCW class in the first place?

3. I don’t know what you have in Texas, but other than an actual CCW class, there isn’t a place for inexperienced folk to go and learn a bunch of need to basics? That’s why they go stray to CCW? Because it’s the only thing available?

4. Look thru the Texas Phone book and see how many places you find that will actually take a dangerous inexperienced newbie with a pistol and get them up to speed before attending a CCW class? There just isn’t really anything out there for the beginner to learn?

5. Can a beginner spend a bunch of money and go to any of the more elite places like Gunsite Ranch? Or Elite Firearms & Training which has locations in Texas and Oklahoma? Do they even take inexperienced newbie’s? If they don’t, where do they go to learn other then a CCW class? And we both know the CCW class are not teaching them anything about gun handling and only concealed carry.

5. Should CCW be only for those who have military or LE training? Or SWAT or Special Forces training in tactics and skill set?

Why is there, this huge gap in the needs of basic firearms training and it’s use between guys like us who are quite knowledgeable; and those who we see at CCW class or the gun range that we can easily tell that they are a danger to themselves and others? Why is the gun carrying community letting these new people to firearms and self protection down, by not providing them enough positive solutions for their training needs?

Maybe there is a new business venture in this for us? We could partner up and call it, “RazrStubbles School of Firearms, Self Defense & Tactics.”

Kinda has a nice ring to it if you ask me.

I think you just nailed it on the head. There needs to be a place to learn BASICS or it needs to be part of a state license to carry program, and I also agree it could be a good business opportunity. Not everyone had the benefit of military or police training, or even a male role model (or female) who taught them firearm and safety basics. Another crack we can’t let people fall thru- what if that not so proficient 80 yr old Grandma has a crazy person who would do her harm out there or lives in a dangerous place and can’t financially or physically escape it? I had a mentally ill and occasionally violent uncle my parents had to worry about well into their old age. Does the state say we can’t let her carry a firearm, or that she just can’t carry it outside of her home? And who makes that decision and upon what criteria? That’s where I always circle back to it being a Constitutional issue and equal protection under the law. We can’t have different classes of gun owners. It’s no where near perfect, but we can’t in any way discriminate with constitutional rights, so regretfully we get stuck with all or nothing. Once again, IMHO. And the only reason I haven’t done a carbine class (high interest, desperately needed as I am far from expert in tactical rifle) is expense and availability of these classes.

 

[OkieStubble]

I think you just nailed it on the head. There needs to be a place to learn BASICS or it needs to be part of a state license to carry program, and I also agree it could be a good business opportunity. Not everyone had the benefit of military or police training, or even a male role model (or female) who taught them firearm and safety basics. Another crack we can’t let people fall thru- what if that not so proficient 80 yr old Grandma has a crazy person who would do her harm out there or lives in a dangerous place and can’t financially or physically escape it? I had a mentally ill and occasionally violent uncle my parents had to worry about well into their old age. Does the state say we can’t let her carry a firearm, or that she just can’t carry it outside of her home? And who makes that decision and upon what criteria? That’s where I always circle back to it being a Constitutional issue and equal protection under the law. We can’t have different classes of gun owners. It’s no where near perfect, but we can’t in any way discriminate with constitutional rights, so regretfully we get stuck with all or nothing. Once again, IMHO.

Good post. The 80 or 90 year old grandmother, may have been transporting herself around town very independently for many decades. But once her aging vision, hand eye coordination, cognitive abilities like judging distance and speeds diminishes to a point, they end up getting their drivers license pulled either by caring family members or the state. Usually by the time the state notices, there have already Been a few accidents.

One can’t afford those accidents with a concealed firearm? And how do we judge or mandate these types who can carry versus not carry and/or keep something solely for just home protection?

As far as the business venture, if it’s successful, we wouldn’t have to work it much ourselves before we just hire other qualified folk to run it for us; and then we both could be in a golf cart on the back nine of a gentleman’s club, puffing on cigars and practicing our sand wedge swing?

 

[TimeOnTarget]

I cringe when I see people on motorcycles without proper protective gear, but freedom be scary yo!

I totally understand the arguments against open carry, and I don't OC, but we Americans are suffering the death of a thousand cuts from the commie left.

The 2A is a God given right, and the Constitution is a limit on government not individuals.

I get lots of training in everything that I do, but I am just that way. Years of military and airline experience make training seem completely natural to me. We never stop training...

 

[Razrnewb]

Good post. The 80 or 90 year old grandmother, may have been transporting herself around town very independently for many decades. But once her aging vision, hand eye coordination, cognitive abilities like judging distance and speeds diminishes to a point, they end up getting their drivers license pulled either by caring family members or the state. Usually by the time the state notices, there have already Been a few accidents.

One can’t afford those accidents with a concealed firearm? And how do we judge or mandate these types who can carry versus not carry and/or keep something solely for just home protection?

As far as the business venture, if it’s successful, we wouldn’t have to work it much ourselves before we just hire other qualified folk to run it for us; and then we both could be in a golf cart on the back nine of a gentleman’s club, puffing on cigars and practicing our sand wedge swing?

I seriously think you have a good idea for a business. It’s get a license, or take an expensive class to learn tactical with nothing in between. I think a good 4-8 hour basic operation, safety, maintenance and shooting class would be a winner. Back in the dark ages, NRA did programs like this and rifle teams, ROTC in the schools. My dad took a rifle to HS to shoot in the 40’s on a school rifle team, and the NRA safety programs were in all the schools. And- school gun violence was unheard of - that ain’t never happening again…

 

[OkieStubble]

I seriously think you have a good idea for a business. It’s get a license, or take an expensive class to learn tactical with nothing in between. I think a good 4-8 hour basic operation, safety, maintenance and shooting class would be a winner. Back in the dark ages, NRA did programs like this and rifle teams, ROTC in the schools. My dad took a rifle to HS to shoot in the 40’s on a school rifle team, and the NRA safety programs were in all the schools. And- school gun violence was unheard of - that ain’t never happening again…

I heard someone say once, that when we come up with a great idea, someone else has probably already thought of it.

If this is true, then where are these businesses that fill in this much needed gap?

One can only assume, the liability insurance and costs for this type of business is unfathomable. Then how does places like Gunsite or Thunder Ranch do it? Is it because the liability risks are less with gun people who are already trained and seeking elite training? Versus the risks of training all sorts of people who have no knowledge and can be totally unpredictable? I dunno?

 

[DesertIguana]

Well the Second Amendment is part of Constitution. The situation were you might have to use dually force is not a good one. You have many split second to decided to draw a firearm, and shoot. Then you have to justify your action to people who have all the time in world to decide if you were right, wrong, or justified.

Friend recently did CCW renewal course taught by two lawyers who are also fill in judges. Point was made if you were right, face no criminal charges, civil defense could cost 50K. Out of you pocket to protect you assets.

 

[OkieStubble]

Well the Second Amendment is part of Constitution. The situation were you might have to use dually force is not a good one. You have many split second to decided to draw a firearm, and shoot. Then you have to justify your action to people who have all the time in world to decide if you were right, wrong, or justified.

Friend recently did CCW renewal course taught by two lawyers who are also fill in judges. Point was made if you were right, face no criminal charges, civil defense could cost 50K. Out of you pocket to protect you assets.

There is conceal carry insurance providers now, who advertise Bail money, attorney's fee coverage for representation and even money and attorney for civil suit.

 

[TimeOnTarget]

Well the Second Amendment is part of Constitution. The situation were you might have to use dually force is not a good one. You have many split second to decided to draw a firearm, and shoot. Then you have to justify your action to people who have all the time in world to decide if you were right, wrong, or justified.

Friend recently did CCW renewal course taught by two lawyers who are also fill in judges. Point was made if you were right, face no criminal charges, civil defense could cost 50K. Out of you pocket to protect you assets.

The civil trial can cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars and years of your time. This is the sad state of our current situation. The atmosphere would be quite different if civil suits were prohibited in cases where no criminal charges were found in self defense scenarios.

Thank goodness that statistically speaking, most of us will never have to use lethal force to defend ourselves. The problem is that, as a mentor of mine said, "the odds are low, but the stakes are high."

The vast majority of people are not prepared for a violent physical altercation. They think that a firearm is a magic shield.

When you train in the grappling arts and get some force on force training under your belt, you realize just how dangerous a fight for your life is. It's a humbling experience. Simunitions training is quite revealing...

 

[DesertIguana]

The civil trial can cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars and years of your time. This is the sad state of our current situation. The atmosphere would be quite different if civil suits were prohibited in cases where no criminal charges were found in self defense scenarios.

Thank goodness that statistically speaking, most of us will never have to use lethal force to defend ourselves. The problem is that, as a mentor of mine said, "the odds are low, but the stakes are high."

The vast majority of people are not prepared for a violent physical altercation. They think that a firearm is a magic shield.

When you train in the grappling arts and get some force on force training under your belt, you realize just how dangerous a fight for your life is. It's a humbling experience. Simunitions training is quite revealing...

Back in 1978 when I was LEO I came with in a split second of firing duty handgun at suspect.

He finally drop his weapon, stll have flashbacks about that day.

Remember famous LAPD North Hollywood B of A shootout.

Famalies of bad guys filed civil suit agains City of Los Angeles.

This was insane, but Civil Laws work that way.

 

[TimeOnTarget]

A friend of mine, who I flew with in Afghanistan, took some rounds to his helicopter during the North Hollywood shootout.

The USA is at an interesting juncture in its history. If we lose the right to self defense, the Republic is dead...

 

[joel]

357 rounds through the Kahr P380 after getting it back from the factory to address its reliability issues. Looks like they sorted it out, as I’ve experienced no issues and while it’s not particularly comfortable to shoot, I can easily (and just did) put 250 rounds through it without an issue.

Now i’m completely stumped between the Kahr P380 vs S&W 340PD. I absolutely adore that S&W, it’s quick to draw, points amazingly well, and I’ve become very accurate with it - I don’t even have to fully utilize the sights it points so well, and I can get ~3-4 inch 5 shot rapid fire groups from a holster pull at 7 yards, which is way better than I ever expected. It is larger/heavier in every dimension vs the Kahr, and it carry’s less ammo (5 vs 8), has considerably more recoil, has inferior sights and reloads are basically not happening in a self defense situation…. But man do I love that gun - and it’s considerably more powerful.

This is like choosing a favorite child. I am completely paralyzed on this decision…

 

[dojpros]

Given the world in which we find ourselves, the ability to have 8 v 5 and the ability to reload/resolve most issues by reloading an easily carried spare mag would have me gravitating to the Kahr.

If "power" is really driving the train then it is back to the 9mm G43.

Fire full power 357 mag loads out of the 340 at your peril. I know folks who have done so and feel it for weeks thereafter.

Thx for the update. Let us know what you decide. Be safe and well.

 

[Bhugo]

When I took my ccw training, the guy who ran it pretty much went over laws for a few hours. He was a LEO. He had a lot of good experiences to supplement the course.

We went to the range and had to hit 35/50 in a 12’ circle at 5 yards. He watched us load and shoot. As long as you could safely shoot you got your ccw. He advertised for the classes he ran for using holsters and defensive shooting or something afterwards. My buddy and I went to the bar…

There was a guy in the class who was a newbie. He had a brand new h&k in a case that he had never fired. The instructor saved him for last and stayed with him at the range for a while. He was a nice guy.

 

[OkieStubble]

When I took my ccw training, the guy who ran it pretty much went over laws for a few hours. He was a LEO. He had a lot of good experiences to supplement the course.

We went to the range and had to hit 35/50 in a 12’ circle at 5 yards. He watched us load and shoot. As long as you could safely shoot you got your ccw. He advertised for the classes he ran for using holsters and defensive shooting or something afterwards. My buddy and I went to the bar…

There was a guy in the class who was a newbie. He had a brand new h&k in a case that he had never fired. The instructor saved him for last and stayed with him at the range for a while. He was a nice guy.

Great post Brian! There are a bunch of awesome CCW instructors out there. Many current and former LEO’s who teach these classes, will notice the lack of knowledge or experience with firearms in the civilian’s who are taking their class. And while there are strict state mandates on CCW course curriculum or time, there are certain awesome instructors, who will, instead of giving their class a water and bathroom break every 15 minutes in order to fill in enough time for the 8 hours the state mandates, will instead, at their own time and cost, ad lib or in addition, attempt to interject some basic fundamentals of various pistol nomenclature and basic self defense and home defense tactics along with the states curriculum that they are paying for, will give this extra training amd knowledge, for free of no cost to the class and no profit for the instructor. Simple, extra advice from the knowledgeable CCW instructor only because he/she cares.

After all these years, I have seen CCW classes price drop to $35 a person. So when an attendee/student gets one of these instructors?

They are getting a lot for that $35.

 

[joel]

Great post Brian! There are a bunch of awesome CCW instructors out there. Many current and former LEO’s who teach these classes, will notice the lack of knowledge or experience with firearms in the civilian’s who are taking their class. And while there are strict state mandates on CCW course curriculum or time, there are certain awesome instructors, who will, instead of giving their class a water and bathroom break every 15 minutes in order to fill in enough time for the 8 hours the state mandates, will instead, at their own time and cost, ad lib or in addition, attempt to interject some basic fundamentals of various pistol nomenclature and basic self defense and home defense tactics along with the states curriculum that they are paying for, will give this extra training amd knowledge, for free of no cost to the class and no profit for the instructor. Simple, extra advice from the knowledgeable CCW instructor only because he/she cares.

After all these years, I have seen CCW classes price drop to $35 a person. So when an attendee/student gets one of these instructors?

They are getting a lot for that $35.

$35? Wow. It’s about $1,200 and takes about a year to get a CCW permit about a half hour away from me in Morgan Hill.

 

[OkieStubble]

$35? Wow. It’s about $1,200 and takes about a year to get a CCW permit about a half hour away from me in Morgan Hill.

Wow, 1200 and a year, that’s crazy. Here in Oklahoma, I have seen it at various prices over the years, but I haven’t seen it higher then $75 back when CCW was first initiated many years ago. Now that we have Constitutional Carry here and a CCW permit isn’t required, it is still an option for those who want one for travel to reciprocal states.

In order for CCW instructors to Stay in business here, $35 a head might just be the new normal. Also, at $35 per, that person brings their own pistol, ammo, targets and range time.

When my wife went thru her CCW class 20 something years ago, the class was held at the local gun range. She paid $75 at the time, but the range, targets and ammo was free. She brought her own pistol, but I think even that was optional as they would provide pistol’s from the range to folks who didn’t have one.

 

[nortac]

Although I haven't looked into it for awhile, I think $100-125 is the going rate around here for a CCW class.

 

[OkieStubble]

$35? Wow. It’s about $1,200 and takes about a year to get a CCW permit about a half hour away from me in Morgan Hill.

I think it was @Kentos who said; “freedom isn’t free or cheap?”

 

[Bhugo]

We have a range that has ccw classes. It’s several evenings or a weekend and a couple hundred dollars.

They also have many other training programs.

If you go to a private ccw class, you get a day 6-7 hours of class/range time, depending on if you qualified first or last at the range. The paper test I took years ago was really only a few questions and most were common sense for anyone who grew up around guns. Maybe not so much if you didn’t. I don’t believe that the state wanted the scores. It was an informative, but limited class.

It would be a nice thing if gun shops either offered, or had information for, teaching basics to brand new gun owners at a very reasonable price. Only real newbies would take advantage of this, but it might save quite a few accidental discharges…. Maybe they do? I never asked…

I paid 100$ many years ago for my ccw class. Not sure what the rate is now for private ccw classes. If there are no state mandated curricula, I can see people charging way less and really skimping on the quality. I don’t know what Michigan requires, if anything…

 

[OkieStubble]

Although I haven't looked into it for awhile, I think $100-125 is the going rate around here for a CCW class.

Nothing like Constitutional Carry, to promote ‘buy one get another for half price’ sales.