Can't get razor sharp enough : or something else is wrong

[m00se]

Hello everyone,

So the story is my girlfriend got me a straight razor kit (2 razors and a strop with some red paste) for Christmas. 3 years ago. And I am *still* struggling with it.

I don't know why, but I think I can't get them sharp enough. They tug and pull and don't seem sharp at all, which is weird because I carry a knife on me every day which I sharpen and hone regularly and will shave hairs cleanly off my arm effortlessly, and ironically I can't get this from an actual razor.

My first few attempts were just honing on the strap. No use. So I gave up and a few months passed.

Then I tried my Spyderco Sharpmaker on them, to try to get them sharp before stropping. Still no good.

So this week, by the advice of some other forums or something, I bought a Norton 4k/8k which was not cheap, in the hopes I might get my razors sharp enough.

This evening I was hoping to finally have a proper go at shaving, but alas, the same result again. Feels no different, just dull as hell and pulling on my face. Got a few bad cuts too

I actually don't know what make the razors are, no marking anywhere and since they were a gift I don't really want to ask. They came as a pair in a red box with a strop. They have a kind of rainbow sheen to them, like oil.

Please please please, can someone point me in the right direction?? I don't mind the DE razor but I would really like to get better at this

 

[mblakele]

Welcome to B&B!

If no honing experts happen to look in on this thread, try http://badgerandblade.com/vb/forumdisplay.php/79-Straight-Razor-Shave-Clinic - and maybe mention the model of razor you have?

 

[m00se]

Thanks for replying

Like I said I don't know what make it is, and there are no markings or anything :s which makes it difficult

 

[Proinsias]

Pictures of the razors might help ascertain the quality of them and the amount of work it may take to get them shaving.

If they are decent razors I'd send one of them out to someone who can put a well regarded edge on it. It will allow you to concentrate on learning to shave with and strop a straight whilst giving you a benchmark to aim for with your other razor & the Norton.

Is your Norton stone lapped flat? I've heard the 4k side can take quite a bit of lapping to reveal a nice surface too. If the 4k is flat then stay on the 4k until you are nicely shaving arm hair. Colouring in the bevel with a permenant marker and doing a few light strokes on the 4k should let you see if you're honing right to the edge all the way along,

I've never used the Norton combo but there's a load of youtube videos and advice on the forums for using them.

Good luck!

 

[m00se]

http://imgur.com/a/iZpr3

Quick crappy pictures from my phone because my SLR's battery was dead. Will get some better pics tomorrow.

The stone is brand new, so may not be totally flat, though it seemed to be taking steel off fairly evenly when I was using it.

Also, I was trying to keep it wet with a spray bottle but as soon as I sprayed any water on it instantly dried out, what's the deal with that? This only happened on the 4k white part, not the 8k yellow part.

I will give it another go tomorrow, and colour the bevel like you recommended.

Thanks for your help

 

[Alum of Potash]

Wow. Never seen a patina like that. That edge looks like it has some rust on it, which it shouldn't if you've honed it recently. Maybe you left some lather on it 3 years ago and put it away without properly cleaning it?

You should study the subject a bit before proceeding. A Norton 4k/8k is often recommended as a good entry level stone. It needs to be soaked for around 15 mins or so before use (or kept in a container of water permanently). Hence, it drying up the first time.

Given the generic quality of the blade, I might be inclined to look for something else. Maybe a sight unseen from Whipped Dog or a "Best Quality" Dovo from The Superior Shave. Make sure that they arrive "shave ready, " so as to have an example, as mentioned.

Would be nice to see a pic of your strop/pasted strop too.

 

[m00se]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Titanium-Leather-re-sharpening-Complete-Instructions/dp/B005P13WMM

Found them on Amazon. Strangely, no brand name or anything :s

 

[Proinsias]

Thanks for the pics, at first glance they look like they are made with rather poor quality control and possibly letter opener grade steel. Whilst there may be a few people on here who could coax a shaving edge from one of those I think the problem is not you or the stones but the razors you are working with.

The Norton stone as far as I know is a soaker, a spray bottle is handy but ensure the stone has been leaft to soak in a basin of water for a while first. I can tolerate a fairly flat stone surface when sharpening knives but when it comes to a shaving edge don't trust the factory, lap it flat and lap it regularly. A cheap and easy way is get a flat surface like a piece of granite/marble/glass, some wet/dry abrasive paper around 200-300 grit and a lot of water.

If you want to give straight razor shaving a fair go I'd suugest picking up a cheap shave ready razor from the Buy/Sell/Trade, Hobbiest or Vendor areas here.

 

[m00se]

I didn't even know about lapping the stone. So that's something I definitely need to do.

I think you're probably right in that I should find a razor that I know is a good one and to get it shaving ready. Just need to go about it without hurting the girlfriend's feelings too much.

I would like to try to get an edge from the ones I have as well, since they have the aforementioned sentimental value, and they look quite nice. But they are not kind to my face at the moment!

 

[m00se]

Can you recommend a vendor in the UK? I had a look at the Dovo, which I can find from a few places but before I just buy from Amazon are there any smaller vendors that might ensure it's shave ready and such?

 

[Attila]

If you are just starting out straight shaving, you need to try an edge that has already been honed by someone who knows what they are doing so that you know how it should feel. Those razors look very suspect to me and I would instead recommend you get a decent vintage razor off of someone on the B/S/T. Look also at the Buy and sell at Straight razor place. There are often good user grade razors honed properly and that have really good steel to them. My advice is get a proper razor first, start shaving. Worry about honing afterwards. If you are trying to learn to hone and shave at the same time...that is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Proinsias]

There are a few vendors in the UK selling shave ready straights but the only one I have experience with, and complete confidence in, is Neil Miller at the Strop Shop UK, he doesn't have any razors listed for sale at the moment, but I imagine an email may be worthwhile.

No need to hurt her feelings. You like the razors, appreciate the gift and want to use & maintain them, you've been trying for years and even invested in a Norton stone to make it happen. Obtaining a cheap razor made of decent steel with a shaving edge on it for comparisson seems fine to me. If you wish to pm me I'll give you of one my razors in shaving condition for comparison, I won't claim to send you a shave ready blade but I'll send you one of my vintage blades that shaves me and should at least be much easier to hone on the Norton than the razors you have.

 

[m00se]

PM sent

 

[sarimento1]

Call brian at executive-shaving.co.uk and he will get you on the right track!
you have quite a gf.
And by now, she should have been promoted!

 

[Alum of Potash]

That was very kind of Proinsias. Glad you took him up on his offer!

 

[Slash McCoy]

Wow... first of all, get a strop and DO NOT put anything on it at all. You need to strop on a clean, unpasted hanging strop before each shave. Pasting a strop is not something you do unless you have a reason for doing so, and knowledge of what to expect in the outcome.

I can't see the pics in your post. But others seem to believe that these are more or less what we call "RSO", or Razor Shaped Objects that are not made by straight shavers or real razorsmiths, and are not knowledgeably designed to function as razors at all. This is sadly very common these days. The makers can't be bothered even if you tell them what they need to do to make the razors functional, because they still manage to sell every RSO that they can churn out. IOW they are not made for shaving. They are made for selling. Pay your money and shut up. Sad sad sad but sadly true.

So, get a razor while you are at it. www.whippeddog.com is a good source for shave-ready vintage razors at a great price. http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/361859-Gold-Dollars-66-22-shipped-conus-SHAVE-ready for a shave-ready Gold Dollar #66 for $22, a very good price even for such a modest razor, which by the way will shave quite well, according to several satisfied buyers. Either way you get a razor that is ready to shave with, cheap.

A good source for a nice beginner strop that you will never outgrow is www.starshaving.com. Get the Big Daddy strop. I have two and I love them. The hardware is removable so you can replace the leather, or simply swap ends if you nick up the right hand edge.

Now, as for the red paste... it can be useful, if you put a TINY amount on a block of balsa that has been LAPPED FLAT. It should only be enough to barely stain the balsa, rubbed in well, and absolutely not enough to make a discernible coating. The balsa should be 3" x 12" and maybe 3/4" thick. Lap it flat on a whole sheet of 220 to 320 grit sandpaper glued to a heavy plate of glass or a 12x12 polished marble floor tile. The surface must be truly flat, not just eyeball flat, not just "looks flat to me" flat. Do both sides. Now you can put the red paste on one side, and green (chromium oxide) on the other, and that works just fine. In fact you can get one already made up, but a little smaller, from Larry at whipped dog. But me, I prefer bigger, and I prefer, and recommend, diamond paste for the abrasive medium. Use .5u for the coarse side, .1u for the fine side. Do not contaminate the fine side with the coarse diamond or you will render it useless as a fine side. The amount you use should be no more than equivelant to a couple of BBs worth, rubbed in well. It will seem like it is not enough, but if you put enough to seem like enough, you will have too much and that believe it or not will limit the sharpness you get from it. After each shave, strop 4 dozen laps on the fine side and hopefully your edge will stay sharp forever. If not, hit the coarse side with enough laps, however many dozen or hundreds it takes, to bring the edge back, then hit the fine side as usual. BTW, if you use red/green, the red is the fine and the green is the coarse.

Hang out here and read, read, read, and you will make a straight shaver out of yourself. You might try sending one of your present razors out for honing, just to make sure that they are not useful as shavers, because who knows... they might be okay.

 

[m00se]

And by now, she should have been promoted!

Working on it. I did do lots of research on rings, and a good one is something worth saving up for. But we're still just starting out so money needs to be saved up for something like that

 

[m00se]

Wow... first of all, get a strop and DO NOT put anything on it at all. You need to strop on a clean, unpasted hanging strop before each shave. Pasting a strop is not something you do unless you have a reason for doing so, and knowledge of what to expect in the outcome.

I can't see the pics in your post. But others seem to believe that these are more or less what we call "RSO", or Razor Shaped Objects that are not made by straight shavers or real razorsmiths, and are not knowledgeably designed to function as razors at all. This is sadly very common these days. The makers can't be bothered even if you tell them what they need to do to make the razors functional, because they still manage to sell every RSO that they can churn out. IOW they are not made for shaving. They are made for selling. Pay your money and shut up. Sad sad sad but sadly true.

So, get a razor while you are at it. www.whippeddog.com is a good source for shave-ready vintage razors at a great price. http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/361859-Gold-Dollars-66-22-shipped-conus-SHAVE-ready for a shave-ready Gold Dollar #66 for $22, a very good price even for such a modest razor, which by the way will shave quite well, according to several satisfied buyers. Either way you get a razor that is ready to shave with, cheap.

A good source for a nice beginner strop that you will never outgrow is www.starshaving.com. Get the Big Daddy strop. I have two and I love them. The hardware is removable so you can replace the leather, or simply swap ends if you nick up the right hand edge.

Now, as for the red paste... it can be useful, if you put a TINY amount on a block of balsa that has been LAPPED FLAT. It should only be enough to barely stain the balsa, rubbed in well, and absolutely not enough to make a discernible coating. The balsa should be 3" x 12" and maybe 3/4" thick. Lap it flat on a whole sheet of 220 to 320 grit sandpaper glued to a heavy plate of glass or a 12x12 polished marble floor tile. The surface must be truly flat, not just eyeball flat, not just "looks flat to me" flat. Do both sides. Now you can put the red paste on one side, and green (chromium oxide) on the other, and that works just fine. In fact you can get one already made up, but a little smaller, from Larry at whipped dog. But me, I prefer bigger, and I prefer, and recommend, diamond paste for the abrasive medium. Use .5u for the coarse side, .1u for the fine side. Do not contaminate the fine side with the coarse diamond or you will render it useless as a fine side. The amount you use should be no more than equivelant to a couple of BBs worth, rubbed in well. It will seem like it is not enough, but if you put enough to seem like enough, you will have too much and that believe it or not will limit the sharpness you get from it. After each shave, strop 4 dozen laps on the fine side and hopefully your edge will stay sharp forever. If not, hit the coarse side with enough laps, however many dozen or hundreds it takes, to bring the edge back, then hit the fine side as usual. BTW, if you use red/green, the red is the fine and the green is the coarse.

Hang out here and read, read, read, and you will make a straight shaver out of yourself. You might try sending one of your present razors out for honing, just to make sure that they are not useful as shavers, because who knows... they might be okay.

Awesome, thanks so much for that. Proinsias has very kindly agreed to send me one of his to try, so if I get on with that I will want to invest some more money in good equipment.

I would also like to get better at honing, since I do it a fair bit on my knives (cooking and work knives) and axes, but the straight razor, I've come to find, is a different animal altogether.

You're all very kind and accommodating and helpful, thanks ever so much

 

[Proinsias]

I'll echo Slash's suggestion of a decent clean leather strop. Neil's got a nice, UK based, selection from budget friendly to family heirloom grade atm here. The man knows a thing or two about strops.

Honing can take a little patience, in the mean time I'd again +1 Slash re pastes, powders or sprays on balsa/leather/fabric/newpaper. A few strops of the razor on a coated surface from time to time can work wonders and is a pretty simple transition if you get the hang of stropping, I imagine if done fairly regularly it could keep honing at bay indefinitely. Trouble is you're more likely to damage the edge when learning which reqires more work and rougher abrasives to correct which can in turn cause more damage if your technique isn't quite there yet.

Alternatively, if you got the hang of kitchen knife sharpening just forget the razor:

 

[conroygc]

I have two or three razors with that swirly rainbow color on them. I have no idea if they're the same as what you have, but they're made in Pakistan and they won't take an edge. The steel just crumbles on the hone.
Sounds like you have some quality razors on the way, and that Norton will get the job done when they need a touch up