Quest for a competent straight shave.

[H Brad Boonshaft]

For chip repairs, where you have to remove a lot of metal, I use high angle honing, edge trailing on a diamond plate.

Hold the razor just off 90 degrees, about 75-80 to the plate, alternating sides to grind off the damaged material. Use lite pressure the metal is thin and is removed quickly.

It does not hurt to measure with a pair of calipers, just past the damage and mark a straight line with a sharpie, so you get an even, straight edge and stop short of your sharpie line. The final removal should be done on a low grit stone.

Then switch to a low grit stone 600-800, again high angle honing until the edge is smooth. Then joint the edge a couple laps and hone on the 800.

The trick is to remove a minimum of material and to get the edge straight and even from the heel to the toe.

When you remove a lot of steel and there is impact damage, the damage to the steel always goes deeper than the chip or folded steel. So don’t be surprised if you may get a good solid edge after honing but the edge fails, (micro-chips) after a couple shaves and stropping, where you are flexing the edge.

You will just need to hone it again from an 800-1k and sneak up to solid steel.

With straight edges it is not too complicated, but with curved smiling edges it can be, because you also want it to look right, so measuring and marking a line is more critical.

Either way cutting to a line is always a good practice for minimal steel removal.

 

[Steve56]

Just a piece of advice, never sling water off a razor or a hone, wipe them off. If you sling them, about 1 in a thousand times something bad will happen. Don’t ask how I know.

 

[helicopter]

I took more off the heel of the Giesen and Forsthoff, reshaped the tip, and knocked the toe down a bit, then took it back to.

Naniwa Chosera 800
Naniwa Chosera 3k
Shapton Rockstar 10k

Shaved. Still not a good edge. Usable, but not good.

Careful microscope inspection indicated a smooth and intact edge. I guess that leaves a lousy bevel, most likely, as well as bad stone, strop, steel, whatever, all unlikely.

 

[Seelector]

Careful microscope inspection indicated a smooth and intact edge. I guess that leaves a lousy bevel, most likely, as well as bad stone, strop, steel, whatever, all unlikely.

Yep my money would be on a bevel that isn't fully set. I've had razors that shaved alright but not great for weeks or a couple months, until one day I honed them and the edge was magically wonderful. The problem of course was me and not fully setting the bevel. It takes some time to get a feel for it and the temptation to assume it's set and move on too early is set is huge.

I'd tape that bevel and go back to the Chosera 800 until it's set, making sure to keep the pressure light. You don't want to flex the blade and lift the apex off the stone. Just a bit of torque and let the spine almost float over the stone. The bevel is set when it's set. I like to use the thumbnail test, and cherry tomatoes work well too. Resist the urge to move on to your 3k too soon.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

To add to what @Seelector said above, I have found that it's really easy to underhone in the midrange. A good tell is how much swarf you see on your next stone. Shouldn't be much. Although I think since you are jumping from 3k to 10k you are going to see some no matter how well you do your 3k work. So keep that in mind. But in the same vein, since you are going from 3k to 10k, you're going to want to absolutely max out the 3k work. Hone on it until you think you're there, then rinse the swarf off the stone and do a bunch of very light, edge leading laps. Maybe 30? Hard to put a number on it. But you want to set yourself up to be able to do the minimal amount of laps on the 10k that you can, with a minimal amount of skidmarks. Normally I would say somewhere in the 10-20 range on the the 10k but it might need more than that to overcome the 3k work. Hard to say.

Another thing that Marty often suggests, is if you end up doing a bunch of work on a fine finisher, to very lightly joint the edge on the corner of the stone to cut any flash or micro burr off, and then do a handful of light laps to true the apex. It's not exactly my preferred way to approach that but I've done it and it does work. The key is to do the jointing *lightly*. It doesn't take much. If you've done it right, after your finish laps the edge should look perfectly straight under modest magnification (10x to 30x range).

Do you have any stones that you could slot between the 3k and the 10k? I think it would make your life easier.

 

[helicopter]

To add to what @Seelector said above, I have found that it's really easy to underhone in the midrange. A good tell is how much swarf you see on your next stone. Shouldn't be much. Although I think since you are jumping from 3k to 10k you are going to see some no matter how well you do your 3k work. So keep that in mind. But in the same vein, since you are going from 3k to 10k, you're going to want to absolutely max out the 3k work. Hone on it until you think you're there, then rinse the swarf off the stone and do a bunch of very light, edge leading laps. Maybe 30? Hard to put a number on it. But you want to set yourself up to be able to do the minimal amount of laps on the 10k that you can, with a minimal amount of skidmarks. Normally I would say somewhere in the 10-20 range on the the 10k but it might need more than that to overcome the 3k work. Hard to say.

Another thing that Marty often suggests, is if you end up doing a bunch of work on a fine finisher, to very lightly joint the edge on the corner of the stone to cut any flash or micro burr off, and then do a handful of light laps to true the apex. It's not exactly my preferred way to approach that but I've done it and it does work. The key is to do the jointing *lightly*. It doesn't take much. If you've done it right, after your finish laps the edge should look perfectly straight under modest magnification (10x to 30x range).

Do you have any stones that you could slot between the 3k and the 10k? I think it would make your life easier.

Yeah. I have a 6k Shapton Rockstar and an 8k Shapton Glass. Just seemed like a lot of stones.

I did get better results on the Gold Dollar barber razor going from the Naniwa Chosera 3k to the Shapton Glass 8k.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

Yeah. I have a 6k Shapton Rockstar and an 8k Shapton Glass. Just seemed like a lot of stones.

I did get better results on the Gold Dollar barber razor going from the Naniwa Chosera 3k to the Shapton Glass 8k.

Sometimes smaller jumps make for better results, especially in terms of comfort. I'd use both of them. You might find the 8k to be superfluous in this set up but for now it won't hurt to try. Spend a good amount of time on both the 3k and 6k and then a minimal amount of time on the 8k and 10k. Like, 20 laps or less. Probably less on the 10k. If you're seeing lots of swarf at 8k go back to the 6k and fix it. That's my advice anyway.

 

[silverlifter]

Sometimes smaller jumps make for better results

Especially when you are learning. Small, methodical, incremental steps allow for better observability, feedback both tactile and visual, and developing an understanding of when a razor is "ready" for the next step. Do the work on the stone. Observe. repeat and test until you are certain that you are done. Then move up and follow the same cycle.

Also, if things aren't working at 6k, for example, don't be reluctant to drop back to 3k; it isn't a sign of failure or moral defect, it is how you learn. It is called a "progression" but it doesn't have to be linear, and it shouldn't be a race to get to the finisher. You are going to scrape your face with the edge, so you may as well invest in the time to get it right.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Yup, I agree with Matt, Darth, your problem is likely the mid grit work. The heel has a lot of deep visible 800 stria, (Red arrow) the middle looks possibly like it is rolled, (Green Arrow) and the toe has some edge issue, but the photo is not clear enough to enlarge. A layer of electrical tape will ensure you are honing to the edge.

It would not hurt to do a few lite laps on the 800 to ensure the bevel is fully set but you should not need pressure, just enough lite laps to ensure your 800 stria goes from the back of the bevel to the edge.

Then look straight down on the edge. If you see any shiny reflection, the bevels are not fully meeting.

Then do some circles or half laps on the 3k, try 2-3 sets of 20. Look at the deep 1k stria and see if most of it is removed.

Then so a set or two of X laps on the 3k until you have laid down an even 3k stria pattern. Any deep stria will end in a micro-chip at the edge. So, it is imperative that you remove all the deep 800 stria.

An X pattern will fully hone the heel and the toe. If needed, you may need to add a bit of rolling lifting the heel to fully hone the heel and toe. The more time you put in here at the 3k the easier all the following stones will be to remove the preceding stone stria and the stronger the edge will be.

Look straight down on the edge again, the edge should be much straighter and there should be no reflection, the edge will look like a dull grey line. If all the 800 stria are removed, the 3k stria goes all the way to the edge, and there are no shiny reflections on the edge, move up to the 6k, then the 8k and finish on the 10k.

If you remove all the 800 stria with the 3k, the other stones in the progression will go much faster and the stria pattern very uniform.

You can easily make the 800 to 6k jump and finish on the 10k. but learning with the 3 and 8k in a progression will make your learning easier.

You are probably close to making a good edge, just need a bit of refinement. This is a common new razor hone issue.

Below is an edge with an almost fully set bevel

The second photo is a fully set bevel, note no shiny reflections.

 

[helicopter]

I think I figured out honing. The missing piece was proper X strokes to replace the bad ones I had been doing. A few YT videos made me realize my mistake.

Also, I think both of my good strops are contaminated with abrasives. It took some experimentation, and it seems like the linen and leather of both have it. What's the move here? New linen and leather?

 

[psfred]

Definitely replace the strops if you think they are contaminated. Fairly easy to tell, polish up the bevel well then strop. If you have scratches after stropping that weren't there before, the strop is dirty. Might or might not be able to clean them.

Firehose linen can be pretty hard to get clean to start with, tends to have grit in it from the factory.

There is no way to avoid honing a razor to suit that razor, they are all a little different and slight rolling strokes won't hurt a really straight one and are required for anything else. I have plenty with a slight warp, require a rolling stroke on the convex side and running off the stone for the concave side, just the nature of straight razor honing. It is nearly impossible to alter the razor after manufacture unless you actually have the counter-rotating wheel set up used to grind the hollows.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Linen can be washed but it does require much more that tossing it in the washing machine and calling it good.

It must be soaked and scrubbed repeatedly to get all the muck out from between the weave. It can take weeks of overnight soaking and scrubbing to remove it all. It is clean when your rinse/soaking water is crystal clear, and nothing is visible on the strop.

Leather can be washed with any good soap, saddle soap or Dawn dish soap and scrubbed with nylon brush and or Scotch Brite sponge, rolling the damp leather on a suspended rolling pin to soften and stretch the leather. Then resurface the face by scraping with a large sharp kitchen knife or sharp cabinet scraper.

But, if the linen or leather are contaminated with paste, you likely will never remove it all, which may not be a bad thing, depending on the paste.

As said test the strops, by stropping a razor on any good metal polish on a clean piece of cardboard to remove all the stria from the bevels, then strop on your strops, if they scratch the pristine bevels, the strops are still contaminated.

Or buy replacement linen and leather from Tony Miller. Tony’s Flax and Hemp strops are as good as well washed vintage Firehose, without all the work.

Stropping is you last chance to perfect your edges, and way, way Under rated…

 

[helicopter]

Linen can be washed but it does require much more that tossing it in the washing machine and calling it good.

It must be soaked and scrubbed repeatedly to get all the muck out from between the weave. It can take weeks of overnight soaking and scrubbing to remove it all. It is clean when your rinse/soaking water is crystal clear, and nothing is visible on the strop.

Leather can be washed with any good soap, saddle soap or Dawn dish soap and scrubbed with nylon brush and or Scotch Brite sponge, rolling the damp leather on a suspended rolling pin to soften and stretch the leather. Then resurface the face by scraping with a large sharp kitchen knife or sharp cabinet scraper.

But, if the linen or leather are contaminated with paste, you likely will never remove it all, which may not be a bad thing, depending on the paste.

As said test the strops, by stropping a razor on any good metal polish on a clean piece of cardboard to remove all the stria from the bevels, then strop on your strops, if they scratch the pristine bevels, the strops are still contaminated.

Or buy replacement linen and leather from Tony Miller. Tony’s Flax and Hemp strops are as good as well washed vintage Firehose, without all the work.

Stropping is you last chance to perfect your edges, and way, way Under rated…

No paste. I tested them and all four parts of the two strops are contaminated. I must have set them down on something with some abrasive from sandpaper on it when I sanded out a few nicks, or perhaps the sandpaper shed on the leather and then the abrasive just got moved around. Next time I need to correct a nick, I will do it in a place where abrasives are not used with a metal tool.

I ordered a couple new Chicago strops. I may try to clean the other ones, or I might trash the Chicago and buy new cloth and leather for the TM. I haven't decided yet. I know that I don't feel like screwing around with it any time soon. I wonder if the back surfaces are also contaminated. I could flip them over and check at some point.

I think they have been getting worse, too. I probably contaminate them with dirty razors from honing. I had though the cloth was supposed to clean the edge, but I realize that means hair, blood, skin, and soap, not abrasives. I will be sure to keep them in a different area from the honing and other stuff and clean razors very well with a microfiber cloth from now on. Reading around. I guess these are pretty common mistakes.

I sort of expected to ruin these strops, but I was planning to get all of my nicking out of the way by the time I did. I will see how well I can do to take care of the new Chicago ones, I got the Russian one and the American one, and if I do alright with them, then I will know I am ready to use a TM again. Hopefully the Chicago ones hone alright. My old one was not nearly as nice or flat as the TM horsehide. The TM strop seemed to produce way better edges. At least the cloth component I ruined on the TM was the inexpensive cotton.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Yup, very common.

Probably 95% of the razors I got in for honing had bevels with deep random scratches that ended in micro-chips at the edge.

A freshly honed razor only touches your face and the strops, so the suspect pool is rather small.

A good strop is really not an expensive proposition, so while you may be likely to cut or nick a strop, learning/perfecting your stropping technique, learning on a good, high-quality strop will return large dividends.

It is said by Golf instructors that the failure of most new golfers, who give up on the game, is directly related to the use of cheap, crappy clubs to learn on.

It is well established that learning to shave with straight razors on a quality razor and hones will improve the learning curve, don’t cheap out on the strop.

You would not pay big bucks for a high-quality automotive paint job and polish it with a cheap, dirty rag.

 

[helicopter]

Yup, very common.

Probably 95% of the razors I got in for honing had bevels with deep random scratches that ended in micro-chips at the edge.

A freshly honed razor only touches your face and the strops, so the suspect pool is rather small.

A good strop is really not an expensive proposition, so while you may be likely to cut or nick a strop, learning/perfecting your stropping technique, learning on a good, high-quality strop will return large dividends.

It is said by Golf instructors that the failure of most new golfers, who give up on the game, is directly related to the use of cheap, crappy clubs to learn on.

It is well established that learning to shave with straight razors on a quality razor and hones will improve the learning curve, don’t cheap out on the strop.

You would not pay big bucks for a high-quality automotive paint job and polish it with a cheap, dirty rag.

The Illinois ones look super cool, but if they don't have better leather than the first one I got, I will go straight to TM for something good.

 

[helicopter]

I am honingnthis 186GD scaled T-I, which had looked fine.

I am wondering if this is this related to the warped scales:

 

[psfred]

Looks more like corrosion to me, but having the edge bite into the scale will surely chip it.

I'd replace the scales before doing much more with it, no point in honing chips out of the edge ever time you open the razor.

 

[helicopter]

Looks more like corrosion to me, but having the edge bite into the scale will surely chip it.

I'd replace the scales before doing much more with it, no point in honing chips out of the edge ever time you open the razor.

I replaced the scales. What I was wondering is if the old scales had caused the corrosion. No question it is corrosion. I bought two of these, and the scales on the one that is still NOS are not warped, but I am wondering if they are going to cause corrosion if I leave them.

 

[helicopter]

I have been honing my Giesen and Forsthoff 5/8 again, and my edges are improving, but still not great. They are not as sharp as I want, and they always have some scratches.

I found part of the problem is my Shapton Rockstar 16k. It seems pretty bad. Flattening it with diamond plates leaves it rough, burnishing it with a kitchen knife leave swarf embedded in it and also tends to ruin the flatness right away. It can't withstand pressure and nothing seems to make it perform. I get a way better polish with the Shapton 6k, and probably close with the 2k. I might see if I can trade it some something else on the BST. Maybe someone else can figure it out. It is surprisingly difficult and bad.

I also think stropping might be scratching my edges, even with brand new strops. The new strops have been quarantined in my bedroom away from abrasives and have never seen a razor that wasn't meticulously cleaned in and then away from where I hone, and they haven't even seen many of those. I will probably sort it put eventually, but I don't like buying new strops every couple weeks.l and accumulating a bunch of questionable strops. This is frustrating. I guess I need to get materials and start making my own components, because they seem to last about as long as a paper plate.

So, these things are frustrating and make me skeptical about my future success. I don't want to spend thousands of dollars a year ruing and using up things just to get a bunch of mediocre shaves. Even getting someone else to hone, which I am not going to do anyway, my edges are minimally acceptable, doesn't solve the strop problem.

Maybe I should just stop stropping and do a light honing every day. I could probably make that work.

 

[silverlifter]

I also think stropping might be scratching my edges, even with brand new strops.

This seems unlikely. You can roll your edge with an errant lap, but I don't see how a new, uncontaminated strop can scratch your edge. Why do you think this is happening?