Quest for a competent straight shave.

[Steve56]

The problems that knife and tool people have (including me) when they begin honing straight razors are due to two fundamental differences between straight raxors and knives/too.s.

One, a straight razor is so thin at the edge that you can’t use much pressure, relative to knives and tools. If your knife or tool edge is not coming along you can just use more pressure. You can’t do that on most straight razors or the edge will flex, the bevels will round and not develop properly. When I began razor honing, I kept wondering why razor people had all these coarse stones, I rarely used anything below 1k on JKnives even for small chips and refreshing bevels. The reason is that you can’t push very hard on a straight razor, so if you have to correct geometry, imperfections, chips, etc you need faster, coarser stones if you want to get finished in this lifetime.

The second reason is that unlike knives and tools, you use a straight razor on yourself. If your knife, tool, axe edge isn’t quite there, you can just push harder. In other words, a pot roast never complains. But you can’t push harder with a straight razor. Well, maybe once!

 

[Seelector]

The problems that knife and tool people have (including me) when they begin honing straight razors are due to two fundamental differences between straight raxors and knives/too.s.

I had the opposite problem lol. I started with razors and recently decided to sharpen my kitchen knives. My issue was that I honed my knives like they were giant razors, very little pressure and lots of edge leading laps. I finally figured out to use a lot more pressure than I felt was reasonable and just wail away on one side then wail away on the other. Kind of embarrassed that it took me an hour or two of going nowhere to figure it out though

 

[helicopter]

I got a nice shave today with only the Dovo Bismarck 6/8. I am not sure what I am doing differently this time except for another day with some real stubble and the slow and deliberate stropping focusing on making both parts of the stroke sound the same.

I didn't even shower. I managed to get very close on my upper lip, which is a challenge with almost any setup. The neck is not smooth but it is clean shaven.

These last few shaves with the GSG edges keep feeling sharper than they did before.

I won't worry too much about the fact that the improvement is probably coming from simple practice, movements without conscious thought.

I am excited to try @Steve56 edges this week.

Now I want to improve more, and get better shaves, of course.

... When I began razor honing, I kept wondering why razor people had all these coarse stones, I rarely used anything below 1k on JKnives even for small chips and refreshing bevels. The reason is that you can’t push very hard on a straight razor, so if you have to correct geometry, imperfections, chips, etc you need faster, coarser stones if you want to get finished in this lifetime...

I ordered a Rockstar 320. It should be a really nice stone. I got my dad a SG 320 last Summer, and that thing is awesome. It can put a working edge on a kitchen knife extremely fast. I had the SG 500, and it is similar, but that 320 is really something.

I am not missing much now, maybe a 2k, 10k, Naniwas where I have Shaptons and Shaptons where I have Naniwas so I have more choices.

Eventually I may get a coticule and a huge arkansas finishing stone, but I plan to start with finishing on compound.

 

[helicopter]

I got this Wade and Butcher back, as well as a Gold Dollar, with edges from @Steve56

I did a rushed shave with this one yesterday that ended with a Gem razor and some razor burn. I stropped it on my brand new custom @Tony Miller horsehide and wide cloth strop 30/50, and shaved with it again today.

This shave was relaxed and much better. 4 passes. I would give it 8/10 DFS with some mild irritation that didn't persist.

This edge is more comfortable on the skin than any other I have tried. It is nice at this point, that I didn't need a safety razor or shavette to finish the job.

Thanks Steve.

 

[Steve56]

Razor burn or irritation from a straight razor is caused by too much exfoliation (also DE/SE).

The main factors that influence SR exfoliation are pressure and blade angle. Try lowering the pressure, the blade should just slide across the skin, and lower the blade angle to almost flat. Other factors can be the soap, the bevel angle, more acute angles are generally more aggressive shavers. I’ll be interested to see how the Gold Dollar does as those certainly have beefy bevel angles.

Hope this helps.

 

[Frank Shaves]

^
Excellent advice!

 

[helicopter]

I tried the shave ready Gold Dollar 100 that @SteveSent me. Please don't be too offended, but this edge is better than the one on my Wage and Butcher or the edges on my GSG Dovos. Sharp and very comfortable, it mowed down three days of stubble without any fuss. It performs well on trouble spots, and I am really impressed. I hope the edge holds up for a while.

I just did two passes, which got me to DFS, then put a small nick in my chin, and decided to finish up with a safety razor.

 

[Steve56]

I’m glad that it’s working out well for you. Looks like steeper bevel angles might be to your liking, Gold Dollars are usually 19-22 degrees which is steep. Both razors have the same edge on them, so the difference is the razor.

 

[Lord NSIC]

Members stressed the 100 shave count as the point of proficiency and it's a good benchmark as by that time you should know what works for you, and you'll have seen/experienced everything at least once and know how to adjust. You will also ("within the margin of error") notice that your shaves and technique will improve after every 15 or so shaves with a SR. Strive for consistency in your blade angles, hand holds, skin stretching and learning to keep your wrist locked as you shave. The other piece of advice is to not be too hard on yourself when you goof. Case in point, I lathered and shaved a 3-month beard yesterday without drawing blood.. initially. I noticed a small area and went to quickly clean it up and got caught speeding: no lather, bad technique, bad angle, too fast, etc., but muscle/pain memory helped me disengage quickly enough to not dig in deeply and walk away with just a slight red mark reminder. Live and learn.

 

[PintoPlain]

As a few people have mentioned already you're still new to using straights and finding out what works for you. Unfortunately there are no short cuts to this process. What is my ideal set up and combination might work perfectly for you or it could be the worst shave you've experienced. You have to find out for yourself.

One thing you might find is you will notice marked improvements and then no obvious improvement for a few shaves. If this sounds familiar, it's what happened to many. My theory is you are consolidating your knowledge and developing muscle memory. You should notice improvements again after a few shaves. I found this cycle happened a few times.

Good luck with your shaves and keep at it.

 

[Saloogie]

Sounds like you're getting close to putting it all together @helicopter .

I've had one razor professionally honed and it sure is a pleasurable shave. BBS and comfortable. My own honing is getting close, but it's not quite there. But I'm also still experimenting with different stones and progressions. I kind of feel like one day very soon, it'll all come together and I will be able to call myself a true straight razor shaver. And importantly, I'm no longer cutting myself, so my wife is off my back now!

As @PintoPlain said above, sometimes you're making real progress and sometimes you are standing still. Keep at it. I know I'm not giving up till I'm a pro!

 

[PintoPlain]

As @PintoPlain said above, sometimes you're making real progress and sometimes you are standing still. Keep at it. I know I'm not giving up till I'm a pro!

I'll give up when I'm a pro or unable to safely use a straight. There's always something to learn and/or improve.

 

[House Boy]

After 30 days I got a DFS yesterday and the awkwardness has gone, I also found that after shaving through the lather, rinsing with just enough water to bring back the slimy, I can use that for second pass and actually the blade cuts and glides no irritation. I'm using a Ralf Aust 6/8 Spanish. When I first got it I was a little disappointed because I expected the blade to go through my hair like butter, anyway a few days ago I gave it a quick hone on my 12000 stone than a stropping, next day it was so much smoother.

 

[helicopter]

Nice shave with @Eben Stone soap and Wade and Butcher.

@Frank Shaves what was your process for cleaning up old horn scales with 00 steel wool and neetsfoot?

 

[Frank Shaves]

Nice shave with @Eben Stone soap and Wade and Butcher.

@Frank Shaves what was your process for cleaning up old horn scales with 00 steel wool and neetsfoot?

Dan (@helicopter), I use wet/dry sandpaper, steel wool, Mothers polish (or equivalent) and 100% neatsfoot oil (not neatsfoot compound). In your case, I would cover the edge of the blade with blue painter's tape and not remove the scales. 00 steel wool is good for getting between the scales when they are not removed.

I would cover the scales with neatsfoot oil and let the razor sit for 24 hours. I would then wipe off the excess neatsfoot and start with polish. If you are not happy with the polish, work your way backward to 2000-grit wet/dry and then 1200 wet/dry. I would be surprised if you need to go any lower than 1200 - like 800-grit. Depends on how "perfect" a look you want. You should be able to jump from 2000-grit wet/dry to polish without using steel wool in between.

It normally takes me about 3 rounds of polish to bring out a semi-gloss finish.

When you are done, liberally apply more neatsfoot, let sit overnight and wipe the whole thing down to remove any excess oil.

The 100% neatsfoot oil that I have been using.

Here is an example of my work:

What's on your work bench right now?

A couple of blades in need of scales. After some thinking, I feel that the top razor needs some nice black horn scales. Can anyone recommend a seller or scales or blanks? Thanks. Ive got some red acrylic for the Bengall.

www.badgerandblade.com

 

[helicopter]

I am trying to hone this 160GD, and it seems impossible to do with any normal process of stroking on stones.

I really want to get the edge straight rather than doing a bunch of rolling strokes Like the last one. It just doesn't perform properly, and I suspect it is the lousy bevel setting with rolling strokes that is the culprit.

The 160 came like this:

I started trying to set the bevel on a Shapton Rockstar 320. I was removing some metal, but not making a difference in where the Sharpie was coming off. I moved to Atoma 400, which removed more metal, but still was taking forever. I moved to Atoma 140. Even with that, I can't get it remotely straight.

I have removed a ton of metal now. This is how it is after covering with Sharpie and giving ten strokes on the Atoma 140.

It is basically ruined before being fixed, on its way to being a 4/8 quarter hollow without having a straight edge on it. Is that normal? I am not trying to preserve the finish or anything, I just want to put a straight edge on a piece of steel so I can understand the process.

I suspect it is either warped, I am doing something wrong, or I am doing several things wrong. No one uses an Atoma 140 to set bevels, right? how is this supposed to work? On a proper 1000 grit bevel setting stone, I would have the same problems, it would just take two days to ruin the razor instead of two hours.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to accomplish since the blade was reasonably straight to begin with-- yes, there's a bit of curve toward the toe but it wouldn't have required any voodoo gymnastics to hit it.

In the after photos the Sharpie is showing that you're not hitting the heel and toe *now*, but it's obvious that you have been hitting both at some point along the way. You also have a bit of a heel hook/frown brewing on the back half of the blade forward of the heel section.

Since this is a practice razor you may as well keep going. I would do a bunch of heel forward strokes to eliminate the heel hook and frown that's starting, and once that's gone you should be able to hit the whole edge with X-strokes and just a minimal roll to hit the toe. The sharpie will tell you.

There may be a warp based on the waves in the spine wear but I've seen worse on more expensive razors.

The truth is that straightening out a smile (or a frown) is pretty time consuming even on coarse stones (as you've observed) and you really want to check your work with a straightedge frequently because it's pretty easy to start creating new problems, especially on a diamond plate. For myself, I find it a lot easier to work with the existing geometry than it is to try to alter it dramatically. Frowns have to go, of course, but that can be challenging too, especially if you're working around a warped blade. Diamond plates are definitely the fastest, at least for the early work, but they also will get you into trouble faster.

 

[helicopter]

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to accomplish since the blade was reasonably straight to begin with-- yes, there's a bit of curve toward the toe but it wouldn't have required any voodoo gymnastics to hit it.


View attachment 1947872

In the after photos the Sharpie is showing that you're not hitting the heel and toe *now*, but it's obvious that you have been hitting both at some point along the way. You also have a bit of a heel hook/frown brewing on the back half of the blade forward of the heel section.
View attachment 1947874
Since this is a practice razor you may as well keep going. I would do a bunch of heel forward strokes to eliminate the heel hook and frown that's starting, and once that's gone you should be able to hit the whole edge with X-strokes and just a minimal roll to hit the toe. The sharpie will tell you.

There may be a warp based on the waves in the spine wear but I've seen worse on more expensive razors.

The truth is that straightening out a smile (or a frown) is pretty time consuming even on coarse stones (as you've observed) and you really want to check your work with a straightedge frequently because it's pretty easy to start creating new problems, especially on a diamond plate. For myself, I find it a lot easier to work with the existing geometry than it is to try to alter it dramatically. Frowns have to go, of course, but that can be challenging too, especially if you're working around a warped blade. Diamond plates are definitely the fastest, at least for the early work, but they also will get you into trouble faster.

Yeah, I have been reading up and it seems that the standard course of action on one like this would have been to accept the unevenness and adjust hone around it rather than trying to make the edge straight.

I thought the one I worked around before ended up at a subpar edge because of all the rolling strokes.

I just pulled out a third one, and it was dead straight and too a shaving Naniwa 800 edge in a few minutes. However, going to 3k, and 8k made either worse, and some compound stropping made it even worse. Visually, it seems to improve, bet performance is degrading.

I can probably set a bevel on the barber notch one pretty easily now that I realize it's never going to be straight.

The honed part of the spine is dead flat, so it definitely has some wave.

 

[psfred]

Hmm, having done exactly the same thing before, let me pass on my thoughts:

First, you are using extreme pressure for honing a razor. Hollow ground razors are quite thin and flexible, even the one you are working with, and high pressure will simply lift the edge right off the stone, which will then grind behind it forever. Wide, uneven bevel with no clean apex. You want to simply hold the razor on the stone and slide it into the edge, with some light rotational pressure to hold the bevel down and the spine up -- imagine that you don't want the spine to actually touch the stone. The abrasive in the stone will cut the steel at the apex just fine with very light pressure, you don't have to add energy.

Second, that razor isn't either straight nor evenly ground, so you could hone straight up and down the stone forever and never get rid of the frown and heel hook that will develop. Perfectly straight razors aren't as common as you think, I'd say at least half of the ones I have require some rolling to get an even edge. Point is that it WILL be straight across, but looking down on it from edge to spine it will have a slight curve. Razors are hot forged and up to the recent past, hand ground so perfectly straight and ground is rare. Easy enough to properly hone, and the reason narrow hones were popular -- it's easier to hone a less than perfect razor with them.

Third, there is never a reason to use a stone coarser than 1000 grit on a razor except to remove chips in the edge. If it was straight enough to get finished at the factory, you don't need to remove massive amounts of steel. You also cannot remove a ground in smile like this razor by honing it, nor can you "straighten" the edge of a warped razor honing flat. You will just get a worn smiling razor or one with a frown honed into it.

Fourth, you have been hitting the stabilizer and tang while lapping with the razor held at a 90 degree angle on the hone, hence the lack of an edge at the heel and the growing heel hook.

Here's what I would do -- get some electrical tape and put one layer on the spine so that it covers the hone wear. Using a 1k stone, very gently run a few laps at light pressure while rotating the edge into the stone and attempting to hold the spine almost off the surface of the stone. Only enough pressure to hold the razor from sliding off, no more. Run down the stone with the razor at about 45 degrees with the heel on the stone but the tang well clear in both directions. You should see a very small clean bevel appear shortly at the edge. Given the shape of the hone wear, I suspect you will need to use a slight rolling stroke in both directions, and accept the fact that this one is going to have a slight smile, it's ground into the razor and short of re-grinding the hollows it's not going away. The blade is actually thicker in the middle of the edge than at the ends, and slightly wonky on one side on top of that.

When you reach the apex the razor will start to "stick" -- much higher resistance to motion and the sound will change. You will know when you are there. Inspection with a loupe or strong magnifier will reveal an even bevel that ends in a straight lihe where the apex is formed properly. Usually not along the whole edge to start with, so you will need to find where that even stroke needs modification to hit all along the edge.

I chewed up a couple Gold Dollars and made a mess of a couple cheap eBay beaters before I figured this out. And you need to learn to easily hone warped razors since you will always find them. It's not hard -- what I do is a rolling stroke on the convex side and run the razor off the stone on the hollow side. How much you have to work at this depends on the warp and grind, every razor is different.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

The heel needed correction to move the corner well away from the stabilizer and allow the heel half of the razor to sit flat on the stone.

The razor is still not sitting flat on the stone, note the stria at the very heel corner does not reach the edge.

You are or have honed on the tang and ground the stabilizer with low grit, aggressive diamonds to try and force the heel on the stone. Now you likely do not have a spine and bevel that are flat and in the same plane.

That you now have a frown at the heel, indicates the heel is still not fully on the stone. Reprofile the heel and move the corner about a ¼ inch 6mm from the stabilizer.

Doing more of the same thing, doubling down, adding super aggressive abrasives and expecting a different result is never the answer.

Had you reprofiled the heel you could have honed a slight smile to the edge, as it should be honed easily with a 1k stone without all the massive wear on the spine and edge.

When you begin to hone a razor that likely has issues, ink the spine and the bevel, do a lite lap on a high grit stone and see where the ink is coming off. What you see, will dictate how the razor needs to be honed.

Stop trying to learn how to hone on Gold Dollars. It’s like trying to learn how to drive, with a car that will not run. Do you want to learn how to drive or repair a motor.

Buy an inexpensive vintage razor and learn to hone it, it is rare that you need more than a 1k to hone a razor. Most razors need some heel correction, if you are having issues with your other razors, look at the heels, the bevel may not be fully on the stone.