5.56/.223 home defense ammo suggestions

[Ad Astra]

I think the mistake many make when we discuss topics of this nature is, they make blanket statements of certain calibers "being good or bad" for home defense or other purposes, without considering all the different and many variables that can go into that topic. For instance,

First guy says, ".556 is great for home defense." Now this guy, is probably thinking, a lightweight, high velocity hollow point or frangible bullet, that is specifically designed for home defense. The only problem is, he didn't state any of these variables in his statement.

Second guy comes along and see's this; and says, "No, it's not good for home defense, I have seen a .556 go thru a 2x8 wooden beam easily!" Now, he is making the exact same mistake the first guy is, because he failed to articulate, the bullet he saw go thru that 2x8 beam, was an SS109 armor piercing bullet, or some other, slower velocity 76 grain slug with a solid copper jacket and hardened core, that is specifically designed to penetrate thru barriers.

Both guys are absolutely correct in their statements, but both are absolutely disagreeing with the others true statements, because they have failed to articulate or consider, all the intangible variables of that exact same round.

So, in other words, "what we have here, is a failure to communicate." (said with the voice from the warden in the movie "Cool Hand Luke")

This and this!

"an SS109 armor piercing bullet,"

The "knitting needle."


AA

 

[Esox]

At close range like that any size shot column is going to hit a lot like a slug. and go right through drywall, and probably any exterior siding except for brick. Personally I would hate to be on the receiving end of #8 at 40-50 yards, it would hurt. I can remember seeing plastic wads from my little .410 Marlin fly out to nearly that distance, and would not care to be on the receiving end of a wad. Neither would be fatal at that range but certainly uncomfortable.

I guess there has not been any testing and results made public on "all" the combinations of calibers, shotgun loads ect. There are just too many variables for that to be practical, what kind of wall, did shot or bullet strike straight on or at an angle, did it hit a stud, bullet weight, caliber, velocity, shot size, velocity, weight of charge, distance from wall when fired ect, ect, ect, on and on. Have fun with all our assumptions. Some of our LEO and military have seen more of these results than virtually all the rest of us. I have seen end result of some in the ER, usually not pretty.

It depends on the load used, but in general yeah any field load is too much. If you load your own though a 7/8oz load of 8 shot with a spreader wad is a better choice.

I've seen what a trap load of #8 with a Winchester AA wad can do to a steel door frame at 20 feet. Hiding behind a couch isnt going to help lol.

I've also seen what a .22 cal AP bullet loaded in a .220 Swift will do to a train track. Hiding behind that isnt going to help either lol.

 

[Esox]

Now I'm thinking about it, the SWAT teams here shoot HK MP5's with Glaser ammo. There was an incident a few years ago in Windsor Ontario and they were confronted on scene. 19 of 22 rounds fired by three officers hit the target.

 

[jkingrph]

I've also seen what a .22 cal AP bullet loaded in a .220 Swift will do to a train track. Hiding behind that isnt going to help either lol

Yes, A few years back I was with my brother in law shooting my .458 win mag. I had some 400 gr Barnes solid copper hollow point bullets loaded and he wanted to try it on a big piece of 5/8" boiler plate he had set up angled behind one of the big hay bale rolls. We propped it up and got behind the corner of strong brick building and popped that steel plate. That hollow point went straight through and acutally engraved the pattern of the rifling in the gun barrel as it passed through the plate. We thought the hollow point would splatter but it went through more like armor piercing.

 

[Kristian F.]

This and this!

"an SS109 armor piercing bullet,"

The "knitting needle."


AA

Also known as M855.

 

[Ad Astra]

Also known as M855.

Yes, indeedy. Personally, I find ballistics fascinating. If I make it to retirement, I'm just going to tinker.

I have reloaded for decades, but took up casting a few years ago and that adds a whole new dimension.


AA

 

[Esox]

Yes, A few years back I was with my brother in law shooting my .458 win mag. I had some 400 gr Barnes solid copper hollow point bullets loaded and he wanted to try it on a big piece of 5/8" boiler plate he had set up angled behind one of the big hay bale rolls. We propped it up and got behind the corner of strong brick building and popped that steel plate. That hollow point went straight through and acutally engraved the pattern of the rifling in the gun barrel as it passed through the plate. We thought the hollow point would splatter but it went through more like armor piercing.

A friend of mind had a pair of Whitworth Express rifles. One in .375H&H and one in .458 Win Mag. I shot his .458 quite a bit and would even have used it deer hunting in place of a shotgun and slugs given the chance. I thought it was a kitten. Lots of recoil, but at that lower velocity its really easy to control and just roll with.

My Sako .338 Lapua, my nephew has it now, was the most violent recoiling rifle I've ever shot. Nine and a half pounds scoped, 24" barrel. Shooting off the bench I used two 1/2" pieces of high density foam wrapped with duct tape between the butt and my shoulder. That made it bearable with my load of a 250 grain Sierra Game King at 3030fps. My load with a Winchester Fail Safe, the original Fail Safe bullet with the steel partition inside it, at 3150fps ripped that pad nearly in half after 3 shots. My load with a 200 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip at 3500fps wasnt a lot worse than a 30-06/180. That was my woodchuck and one time black bear load.

When my gun club was building a new indoor range, they asked me to bring my Sako .338 Lapua down to test the back stop material. Theres a member at our club that was a buyer for General Dynamics here in town and he got the club a piece of armor plate they use on the Stryker APCs as a test material.

I took my Sako down with my load of a 230 grain Winchester Fail Safe and a friend took down his Remington 700BDL in .338 Remington Ultra Mag with factory loaded A-Square Dead Tough 250 grain bullets.

They set the plate at 100 yards. My Lapua load whistled right through it and fractured the offside in about a 1" radius. My friend shot and hit about 4"s to the right of my impact and left a grey smudge without even dimpling the plate.

That Lapua load would shoot through over 8 feet of solid wood and most likely through a brick house and the neighbors house a few doors down besides lol.

Funny thing about that rifle. All loads were with IMR7828 powder and Federal 215 primers in neck sized Lapua brass. 92 grains for the 250 grain Sierra, 94 grains for the 230 grain Fail Safe and 96 grains for the Ballistic Tip. It shot all loads to the same point of impact at 100 yards, with 1/2" groups or better if I was having a good day. Its not much of a bench gun lol.

My nephew is loading 225 grain Barnes TSX in it now at 3200fps and took a nice buck with it last month.

 

[Esox]

Also known as M855.

Those little green tipped devils are on the Prohib list here in Canada as factory loaded rounds. They cant be sold, but the gun shows around here use to sell the bullets themselves in 100 round bags like any other bullet. They were legal like that, but only for range use, not field use.

The friend of mine that loaded some in his .220 Swift came over one day and brought one with him. I bashed it with my 20oz Estwing until all the lead was gone and only that pointed tip was left. I set it on the back of the vise and whacked it as hard as I could with that hammer and the AP tip embedded itself in the face of my hammer. Those things are hard. At 100 yards it fully penetrated the thinner bit of a train track from his Ruger #1 .220 Swift.

 

[Kristian F.]

Those little green tipped devils are on the Prohib list here in Canada as factory loaded rounds. They cant be sold, but the gun shows around here use to sell the bullets themselves in 100 round bags like any other bullet. They were legal like that, but only for range use, not field use.

The friend of mine that loaded some in his .220 Swift came over one day and brought one with him. I bashed it with my 20oz Estwing until all the lead was gone and only that pointed tip was left. I set it on the back of the vise and whacked it as hard as I could with that hammer and the AP tip embedded itself in the face of my hammer. Those things are hard. At 100 yards it fully penetrated the thinner bit of a train track from his Ruger #1 .220 Swift.

And here, in the Metro Detroit, MI area, we can't shoot any steel core indoors, they'll even magnet check your ammo.

 

[OkieStubble]

Also known as M855.

If we wanted to be technically anal retentive about it, the SS109 nor the M855 can't really, be designated as "armor piercing." The true designated design to garner the actual classification or label of "armor piercing" has to be a projectile with a solid steel core and no lead.

The SS109 and M855 green tips are actually only designed for deeper penetration. Both are only steel capped projectiles with a penetrator and both have a lead core, so neither can actually be classified as "armor piercing."

Saying this fact however, doesn't change the fact, that if you look at a pic of a SS109 green tip on the left and a standard 55 gr. round on the right, it still looks armor piercing to me.

 

[Esox]

And here, in the Metro Detroit, MI area, we can't shoot any steel core indoors, they'll even magnet check your ammo.

Outdoor only here too yeah. Inside is lead, jacketed lead and shotgun slug loads only.

If we wanted to be technically anal retentive about it, the SS109 nor the M855 can't really, be designated as "armor piercing." The true designated design to garner the actual classification or label of "armor piercing" has to be a projectile with a solid steel core and no lead.

The SS109 and M855 green tips are actually only designed for deeper penetration. Both are only steel capped projectiles with a penetrator and both have a lead core, so neither can actually be classified as "armor piercing."

Saying this fact however, doesn't change the fact, that if you look at a pic of a SS109 green tip on the left and a standard 55 gr. round on the right, it still looks armor piercing to me.

View attachment 926789

This is what was inside the ones I had.



https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/03/foghorn/the-truth-about-m855-5-56-nato-ammunition/

They had the green tip, but no designation other than that and were in a sealed plastic bag.

Send it at 4200fps and it will do a lot.

 

[machinisttx]

At close range like that any size shot column is going to hit a lot like a slug. and go right through drywall, and probably any exterior siding except for brick. Personally I would hate to be on the receiving end of #8 at 40-50 yards, it would hurt. I can remember seeing plastic wads from my little .410 Marlin fly out to nearly that distance, and would not care to be on the receiving end of a wad. Neither would be fatal at that range but certainly uncomfortable.

At 30 yards, a #8 stings a little. Beyond that, it's like being hit with a big rain drop. Wish I could find the chart I saw some time ago showing energy figures. The energy drops much, much more quickly than most people think.

 

[Esox]

At 30 yards, a #8 stings a little. Beyond that, it's like being hit with a big rain drop. Wish I could find the chart I saw some time ago showing energy figures. The energy drops much, much more quickly than most people think.

Yep, those light pellets lose energy quickly. I remember duck hunting a small slough in Saskatchewan that was only 50 or 60 yards across. When someone on the other side would shoot in my direction, the spent pellets would rain down around me. I'd just tip my hat down and they'd bounce off the bill like sleet. I couldnt even feel them through my shirt or jacket.

That was with factory loaded Imperial high brass 2 3/4" 7 1/2 shot. Not sure I'd say the same if they were shooting my 1 5/8oz load of 5's at 1250fps though. Those went right through Canada Geese at 30 yards. On my first Goose hunt with my 11-87 SPS-T I used the Extra Full turkey choke and that load of 5 shot. I hit a Goose right under the wing as it was coming into the dekes and it removed the entire breast at about 25 yards.

Shortly after that we had to change to steel shot and the whole bird hunting world went on its head. I ended up shooting 2 3/4" factory loaded steel 4 shot through the Imp.Cyl tube. Even the size of 4 shot, steel shot past 30 yards doesnt have much left.

 

[Ad Astra]

Those little green tipped devils are on the Prohib list here in Canada as factory loaded rounds. They cant be sold, but the gun shows around here use to sell the bullets themselves in 100 round bags like any other bullet. They were legal like that, but only for range use, not field use.

The friend of mine that loaded some in his .220 Swift came over one day and brought one with him. I bashed it with my 20oz Estwing until all the lead was gone and only that pointed tip was left. I set it on the back of the vise and whacked it as hard as I could with that hammer and the AP tip embedded itself in the face of my hammer. Those things are hard. At 100 yards it fully penetrated the thinner bit of a train track from his Ruger #1 .220 Swift.

Interesting, that.

Some Turkish maker had the stuff with 30 rounds in a 20-round-sized box, for 20-round price. I stocked up.
I believe I read it wasn't loved in (recent) combat for that "poking with a knitting needle" effect.


AA

 

[Esox]

Interesting, that.

Some Turkish maker had the stuff with 30 rounds in a 20-round-sized box, for 20-round price. I stocked up.
I believe I read it wasn't loved in (recent) combat for that "poking with a knitting needle" effect.


AA

Yours was the first time I'd heard of the "knitting needle effect" but its very apt lol. They just left clean little holes in anything they hit.

Scary to imagine what one might do in .338 caliber at 3000fps lol.

 

[Ad Astra]

Yours was the first time I'd heard of the "knitting needle effect" but its very apt lol. They just left clean little holes in anything they hit.

Scary to imagine what one might do in .338 caliber at 3000fps lol.

I read about six SEAL memoirs in a row, so I forgot who made the reference. The OTF 77grain (I think) was preferred.

It's useful to stock all types of ammo, IMO. Being cheap, I was pleased to get green tip 1/3 off.


AA

 

[DaBugGuy]

In response to the original question, I used a 64 gr soft point out of a .223 pistol ( 9" barrel single shot) to harvest a whitetail deer ( perfectly legal in my state). I shot her at about 30 yards. There was no exit wound. Upon field dressing, the bullet hit a rib on the way in and the bullet turned into shrapnel going through both lungs. If the AR is your only choice for home defense, aim for bone to decrease penetration. Sternum or pelvis would work well to decrease danger to neighbors. That being said, don't miss. An errant bullet is a very dangerous thing in any circumstance. Just sharing my personal experience with the caliber.

 

[Acmemfg]

Can’t help but wonder what guys like Marshall Robinson and the late Howard Donahue would have to say about all this.......

 

[machinisttx]

Yours was the first time I'd heard of the "knitting needle effect" but its very apt lol. They just left clean little holes in anything they hit.

Scary to imagine what one might do in .338 caliber at 3000fps lol.

The biggest problem with the M855 load was/is the rifles it was fired through. It will usually fragment up to about 100 meters from a 14.5" barrel, which is apparently what was most commonly issued. The short barrel doesn't allow it to generate enough velocity for it to yaw and fragment in soft tissue beyond that.

 

[simon1]

Can’t help but wonder what guys like Marshall Robinson and the late Howard Donahue would have to say about all this.......

Thhhtttt...Donahue was just a crackpot conspiracy theorist...according to the guberment.

If you want to get into real facts...we do the Bay of Pigs.