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Apartment ammo, what are your suggestions?

As the wife and I transition into semi-retirement, one of our life changes will be living in a condo for some if not most of the year.
The guns I want to focus on are the ones that would probably be used in a home defense situation. Shotgun, 1911, snub 357 mag. The state we will be moving to does have a 10 round capacity limit for handguns and frangible ammo is prohibited.
The shotgun is a Mossberg 590 Boarder patrol. Looking for a man-stopping round somewhere between the 3” buckshot that’s currently in it and bird shot.
1911, not quite sure the options here? I am fine going down to a 165 grain, but that still is a lot of lead.
2 1/2” S&W 686+. I believe I have the answer for this with Gold Dot short barrel 38 Special +P 135 gr. But was thinking about the “treasury load” 38 Special +P+ 110 grain.
Adding pics to give you gentleman a visual.
Thank you for your suggestions in advance!

76B401D6-EEDC-41DC-B7F6-A98A4B73C53D.jpeg781663AB-5A16-4F69-8569-183540236B0D.jpeg60B02DB0-468E-4FDE-9C31-03A4D0564162.jpeg
 
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OkieStubble

Dirty Donuts are so Good.
As the wife and I transition into semi-retirement, one of our life changes will be living in a condo for some if not most of the year.
The guns I want to focus on are the ones that would probably be used in a home defense situation. Shotgun, 1911, snub 357 mag. The state we will be moving to does have a 10 round capacity limit for handguns and frangible ammo is prohibited.
The shotgun is a Mossberg 590 Boarder patrol. Looking for a man-stopping round somewhere between the 3” buckshot that’s currently in it and bird shot.
1911, not quite sure the options here? I am fine going down to a 165 grain, but that still is a lot of lead.
2 1/2” S&W 686+. I believe I have the answer for this with Gold Dot short barrel 38 Special +P 135 gr. But was thinking about the “treasury load” 38 Special +P+ 110 grain.
Adding pics to give you gentleman a visual.
View attachment 1473177View attachment 1473179View attachment 1473181

Your post is perfect. You already have this figured out before asking. I am two and a half years into a retirement, condo slash townhome…. Thing.

It’s actually listed as a townhouse? But it’s not a two-story? It’s a one story flat, but doesn’t have that condo build or vibe?

It is attached to other occupied units on either side. So we are a lot alike you and me. :)

Your ammo choices sound just like mine. I would be comfortable loading and have the short barreled 135 grain +P Gold Dot .38’s for the .357, or stepping up to a 110 gr. Magnum load.

The thing here we focus on though, is layout and positioning of our “condos” along with ammo. On one side of me, the neighbors are a younger family with a two story and two young children.

However, there is a huge, thick concrete firewall between them and us. My front entry door and opposite patio door are located on the same side as this firewall.

So while careful ammo selection is wise, forced entry from my front door or back patio door, this firewall will keep those neighbors pretty much safe from any over penetration. It also keeps any noise from her children, bleeding over and disturbing us, so it’s a good thing all around.

On the opposite side, there is an older couple living in a flat just like ours. The only points of entry on that side of the house, would be the garage door and the inside door into the laundry room and kitchen. And then a back spare bedroom, which it’s outer wall, probably matches up with one on their bedroom walls. There is no firewall on that side of the house.

While forced entry probably wouldn’t happen thru the outside garage door and inside laundry door, the back bedroom window could be a concern. If someone came thru this window and made entry, engaging them in that bedroom could be problematic. However, if we heard someone coming thru this window, since the bedroom isn’t in use, who says we can’t just call the police and or wait until they come thru the bedroom and into the small hallway just outside of the bedroom.

This would then protect the elderly couple on that side and Create a fatal funnel in that hallway for the bad guys. Plus, there is a small, nightlite in the bathroom that illuminates that hallway, causing anyone coming thru it to be backlit and silhouetted along with being in a fatal funnel.

So pre mapping and planning is everything, even going thru the motions with an empty gun in order to ingrain it into you motor muscle and psyche.

I think your ammo decisions are thoughtful and wise. 165 grain .45 shouldn’t be sneezed at. My bedside gun is a Glock 23 loaded with 165 gr. Gold Dots. I can certify to you, not to worry, they are very effective in 165.

The enormous power of a 12 gauge shotgun should never be under estimated even with bird loads. I can’t see, why a turkey load would not be plenty enough in a condo type residence and it’s internal distances.

Check and see if you have firewall’s and what they’re made of and understand your home’s layout in regards to lanes of fire and you will be good.

One of the cons with this type of house and living is I just don’t have the extra room to do stuff I wanna do like reloading.

But, one of the absolute pro’s is it is very, very defensible against forced entry. We park our vehicles in the garage and enter thru our laundry room. We hardly ever use the front door. People never know when we are home or not. Hard to break in to a place where the neighbors are like right there next to you. :)
 
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Your post is perfect. You already have this figured out before asking. I am two and a half years into a retirement, condo slash townhome…. Thing.

It’s actually listed as a townhouse? But it’s not a two-story? It’s a one story flat, but doesn’t have that condo build or vibe?

It is attached to other occupied units on either side. So we are a lot alike you and me. :)

Your ammo choices sound just like mine. I would be comfortable loading and have the short barreled 135 grain +P Gold Dot .38’s for the .357, or stepping up to a 110 gr. Magnum load.

The thing here we focus on though, is layout and positioning of our “condos” along with ammo. On one side of me, the neighbors are a younger family with a two story and two young children.

However, there is a huge, thick concrete firewall between them and us. My front entry door and opposite patio door are located on the same side as this firewall.

So while careful ammo selection is wise, forced entry from my front door or back patio door, this firewall will keep those neighbors pretty much safe from any over penetration. It also keeps any noise from her children, bleeding over and disturbing us, so it’s a good thing all around.

On the opposite side, there is an older couple living in a flat just like ours. The only points of entry on that side of the house, would be the garage door and the inside door into the laundry room and kitchen. And then a back spare bedroom, which it’s outer wall, probably matches up with one on their bedroom walls. There is no firewall on that side of the house.

While forced entry probably wouldn’t happen thru the outside garage door and inside laundry door, the back bedroom window could be a concern. If someone came thru this window and made entry, engaging them in that bedroom could be problematic. However, if we heard someone coming thru this window, since the bedroom isn’t in use, who says we can’t just call the police and or wait until they come thru the bedroom and into the small hallway just outside of the bedroom.

This would then protect the elderly couple on that side and Create a fatal funnel in that hallway for the bad guys. Plus, there is a small, nightlite in the bathroom that illuminates that hallway, causing anyone coming thru it to be backlit and silhouetted along with being in a fatal funnel.

So pre mapping and planning is everything, even going thru the motions with an empty gun in order to ingrain it into you motor muscle and psyche.

I think your ammo decisions are thoughtful and wise. 165 grain .45 shouldn’t be sneezed at. My bedside gun is a Glock 23 loaded with 165 gr. Gold Dots. I can certify to you, not to worry, they are very effective in 165.

The enormous power of a 12 gauge shotgun should never be under estimated even with bird loads. I can’t see, why a turkey load would not be plenty enough in a condo type residence and it’s internal distances.

Check and see if you have firewall’s and what they’re made of and understand your home’s layout in regards to lanes of fire and you will be good.

One of the cons with this type of house and living is I just don’t have the extra room to do stuff I wanna do like reloading.

But, one of the absolute pro’s is it is very, very defensible against forced entry. We park our vehicles in the garage and enter thru our laundry room. We hardly ever use the front door. People never know when we are home or not. Hard to break in to a place where the neighbors are like right there next to you. :)
Thank you for that extensive response!
It is an upstairs condo and I’m afraid there is no “Firewall” like a townhome, think the best I could hope for is 2X6” construction 😔. This further complicates matters because my bedroom door would be directly facing my next door neighbors conjoining wall if anyone is to enter the unit.

I will do a little more research on shotgun loads, lots to choose from, maybe a heavier turkey load?

Thank you for verifying the 165 grain .45, I know there’s other lighter loads out there, but I also think that will more than do the job.

A 110 grain 357! That’s gonna be One Hot Mama, I like it👍, that’s like putting that Treasury Load on steroid.
 
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jar_

Too Fugly For Free.
I keep frangible ammo in my handguns and #4 bird shot in a shotgun. For example the S&W 469 is loaded with 15 & 1 rounds of Inceptor ARX that has an advertised speed of over 1600 fps and over 300 ftlbs of energy. I doubt that would help much with a gang wearing body armor but it is an old fart neighborhood and at least four families on this street are also shooters. If faced with the gang wearing body armor I should at least be able to make enough noise to attract my neighbors attention.

Fortunately these days there are quite a few companies making frangible defense ammo like Inceptor, Norma, Federal and even Speer Lawman.

My house is a single family standalone so there is at least a few yards and several walls before any neighbors home.

But most of my effort is in making it unlikely that I will need either through heightened door locks and a second tempered glass steel storm door in addition to the entry door as well as remotely controlled lighting and cameras.
 

OkieStubble

Dirty Donuts are so Good.
Thank you for that extensive response!
It is an upstairs condo and I’m afraid there is no “Firewall” like a townhome, think the best I could hope for is 2X6” construction 😔. This further complicates matters because my bedroom door would be directly facing my next door neighbors conjoining wall if anyone is to enter the unit.

I will do a little more research on shotgun loads, lots to choose from, maybe a heavier turkey load?

Thank you for verifying the 165 grain .45, I know there’s other lighter loads out there, but I also think that will more than do the job.

A 110 grain 357! That’s gonna be One Hot Mama, I like it👍, that’s like putting that Treasury Load on steroid.

The hotter and lighter the .357 load, the better chance of the slug disintegrating upon contact with wall studs because of the speed and velocity. This is why SWAT entry teams like the .223/.556 round for tactical engagements. 62 grain bullets like to disintegrate at high velocity when contacting other stuff. :)

Is your master bedroom upstairs? If it is and there is no firewall, then yes, you have to plan to not “shoot” upstairs coming out of your bedroom door.

However, coming out of an upstairs bedroom and “getting positioned” at the top of the stairs pointing your defensive firearm “down the stairs”?

Is very doable, feasible, tactical and will be quite safe for your own inhabitants and your neighbors.

You just have to plan to keep the boogeyman downstairs. When I was young and first started in LE, the wife and I lived in this exact type of townhome with two small children. Bedrooms and a bathroom was upstairs, everything else downstairs.

And it was a very rough neighborhood also. Imagine how I felt as a young rookie, leaving a beautiful wife and two small children alone in an inner city neighborhood while I chased other boogeymen at night?

The entry doors and windows downstairs were hardened and alarmed with contacts and she had a Beretta 92 and a Remington 20 gauge shotgun with #4 buck loads and she could cycle that shotgun with the best of them.

There was no way someone was getting in to that townhouse downstairs without making a lot of noise for a long time just to get in.

She was trained to get up out of bed and have phone and shotgun at the top of those stairs while using the wall at the top for cover. We found with just a bit of research and training and going thru the motions that she could even use the flat surface of the wooden hand rails at the top of the stairs as a perfect bench rest and arm support if she had to wait for the police to respond and got fatigued holding that shotgun.

Understand that everything is possible and those possibilities can all be made safe with some pre-planning, organizing and training by going thru the motions with your loved ones.

Not only did I feel comfortable with living there and working at night, but I pity’d the fool who would have came across her and that shotgun. :)

The body will never go, where the mind has never been.
 
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My wife is not comfortable handling firearms, so I kept an old driver from my golf bag next to the bed when I was on shift and she was home alone. It was much easier for her to swing at damaging velocity than a baseball bat. Luckily she never had to deploy it and I am home every night now and am comfortable with guns....
 
The hotter and lighter the .357 load, the better chance of the slug disintegrating upon contact with wall studs because of the speed and velocity. This is why SWAT entry teams like the .223/.556 round for tactical engagements. 62 grain bullets like to disintegrate at high velocity when contacting other stuff. :)

Is your master bedroom upstairs? If it is and there is no firewall, then yes, you have to plan to not “shoot” upstairs coming out of your bedroom door.

However, coming out of an upstairs bedroom and “getting positioned” at the top of the stairs pointing your defensive firearm “down the stairs”?

Is very doable, feasible, tactical and will be quite safe for your own inhabitants and your neighbors.

You just have to plan to keep the boogeyman downstairs. When I was young and first started in LE, the wife and I lived in this exact type of townhome with two small children. Bedrooms and a bathroom was upstairs, everything else downstairs.

And it was a very rough neighborhood also. Imagine how I felt as a young rookie, leaving a beautiful wife and two small children alone in an inner city neighborhood while I chased other boogeymen at night?

The entry doors and windows downstairs were hardened and alarmed with contacts and she had a Beretta 92 and a Remington 20 gauge shotgun with #4 buck loads and she could cycle that shotgun with the best of them.

There was no way someone was getting in to that townhouse downstairs without making a lot of noise for a long time just to get in.

She was trained to get up out of bed and have phone and shotgun at the top of those stairs while using the wall at the top for cover. We found with just a bit of research and training and going thru the motions that she could even use the flat surface of the wooden hand rails at the top of the stairs as a perfect bench rest and arm support if she had to wait for the police to respond and got fatigued holding that shotgun.

Understand that everything is possible and those possibilities can all be made safe with some pre-planning, organizing and training by going thru the motions with your loved ones.

Not only did I feel comfortable with living there and working at night, but I pity’d the fool who would have came across her and that shotgun. :)

The body will never go, where the mind has never been.
It is entirely an upstairs unit, so yeah, just more to contemplate as 95% of my training has NOT been muzzle up to keep in a safe direction.
 
I love that guy. He is simple and too the point. Reminds me of me. :)
Paul is the best! I love how brutally honest he is, even with self reflection, just awesome.
I would have no problems going to a 410, but my mossberg is built for home defense, it’s just about finding the “right load”. I like the idea of the mini shells, but I don’t want to trust my life with having that adapter work 100% of the time.
The more research I do on these Turkey loads, the more comfortable I am for home defense, nasty looking loads!
 
I should also mention this fella, STOP laughing 😂🤣, don’t let the fact that he’s down to 3 teeth fool you. No, he’s no velociraptor K-9, but he can hear a can opener or the plastic wrapping of American cheese from across the house in full coma status, let alone anyone remotely close to the door.
0EBF437A-9C98-4ABC-8F96-06F214C00AE9.jpeg
 
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oc_in_fw

Fridays are Fishtastic!
I should also mention this fella, STOP laughing 😂🤣, don’t let the fact that he’s down to 3 teeth fool you. No, he’s no velociraptor K-9, but he can hear a can opener or the plastic wrapping of American cheese from across the house in full coma status, let alone anyone remotely close to the door.
View attachment 1473361
No laughing here. Even a small dog gives you a heads up that something is going on.
 
The hotter and lighter the .357 load, the better chance of the slug disintegrating upon contact with wall studs because of the speed and velocity. This is why SWAT entry teams like the .223/.556 round for tactical engagements. 62 grain bullets like to disintegrate at high velocity when contacting other stuff. :)

Is your master bedroom upstairs? If it is and there is no firewall, then yes, you have to plan to not “shoot” upstairs coming out of your bedroom door.

However, coming out of an upstairs bedroom and “getting positioned” at the top of the stairs pointing your defensive firearm “down the stairs”?

Is very doable, feasible, tactical and will be quite safe for your own inhabitants and your neighbors.

You just have to plan to keep the boogeyman downstairs. When I was young and first started in LE, the wife and I lived in this exact type of townhome with two small children. Bedrooms and a bathroom was upstairs, everything else downstairs.

And it was a very rough neighborhood also. Imagine how I felt as a young rookie, leaving a beautiful wife and two small children alone in an inner city neighborhood while I chased other boogeymen at night?

The entry doors and windows downstairs were hardened and alarmed with contacts and she had a Beretta 92 and a Remington 20 gauge shotgun with #4 buck loads and she could cycle that shotgun with the best of them.

There was no way someone was getting in to that townhouse downstairs without making a lot of noise for a long time just to get in.

She was trained to get up out of bed and have phone and shotgun at the top of those stairs while using the wall at the top for cover. We found with just a bit of research and training and going thru the motions that she could even use the flat surface of the wooden hand rails at the top of the stairs as a perfect bench rest and arm support if she had to wait for the police to respond and got fatigued holding that shotgun.

Understand that everything is possible and those possibilities can all be made safe with some pre-planning, organizing and training by going thru the motions with your loved ones.

Not only did I feel comfortable with living there and working at night, but I pity’d the fool who would have came across her and that shotgun. :)

The body will never go, where the mind has never been.
Military M855A1 62 grain rounds tend to over penetrate drywall, studs, windows, and most thin skinned vehicles. The copper jacketing sheds but the steel penetrator center continues stumbling along. Capping round off rounds with humans living next door is a tough call; bad things happen when rounds deflect or over perform expectations in close quarters. Thankfully, 99% of gun owners will never need to discharge their firearm to protect themselves or others.
 

OkieStubble

Dirty Donuts are so Good.
Military M855A1 62 grain rounds tend to over penetrate drywall, studs, windows, and most thin skinned vehicles. The copper jacketing sheds but the steel penetrator center continues stumbling along. Capping round off rounds with humans living next door is a tough call; bad things happen when rounds deflect or over perform expectations in close quarters. Thankfully, 99% of gun owners will never need to discharge their firearm to protect themselves or others.

do you honestly think I was referring to military M855 or SS109 green tip .556 with a steel penetrator? Honestly? Police tactical teams all over the U.S. use a wide variety of .223 and .556 lightweight/high velocity frangible and other fare, inside residential dwellings EXACTLY because they presume it causes less penetration than 9mm, .40 S&W or other pistol type rounds. While there is no such thing as the perfect round to guard against over penetration, handgun ammunition, which can be heavier and slower, and when shot from the likes of an HK MP5 instead of a pistol? They are much more overly penetrative than .223 or .556.

Sorry to be the one to inform you, but there are lots of different varations to this caliber and ammunition then just the green tipped steel penetrators?




FBI Ballistic Tests
As a result of renewed law enforcement interest in the .223 round and in the newer weapons systems developed around it, the FBI recently subjected several various .223 caliber projectiles to 13 different ballistic tests and compared their performance to that of SMG-fired hollow point pistol bullets in 9mm, 10mm, and .40 S&W calibers.

Bottom Line: In every test, with the exception of soft body armor, which none of the SMG fired rounds defeated, the .223 penetrated less on average than any of the pistol bullets.



3) Safety — Another concern for the police is the potential for bullets to penetrate through walls and hit a target that wasn’t intended. According to the manual, this is another area where the patrol rifle shines:
“[T]he most popular patrol rifle round, the 5.56mm NATO (.223 Remington) will penetrate fewer walls than service pistol rounds or 12 gauge slugs.”

A
nd I saved the best for last, a video from the great warrior poet himself. Very educational and eye opening about over penetration AND pre-mapping and planning your battlefield BEFORE the actual battle and it's importance. Basically, everything I said in my first post. :)

 
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do you honestly think I was referring to military M855 or SS109 green tip .556 with a steel penetrator? Honestly? Police tactical teams all over the U.S. use a wide variety of .223 and .556 lightweight/high velocity frangible and other fare, inside residential dwellings EXACTLY because they presume it causes less penetration than 9mm, .40 S&W or other pistol type rounds. While there is no such thing as the perfect round to guard against over penetration, handgun ammunition, which can be heavier and slower, and when shot from the likes of an HK MP5 instead of a pistol? They are much more overly penetrative than .223 or .556.

Sorry to be the one to inform you, but there are lots of different varations to this caliber and ammunition then just the green tipped steel penetrators?




FBI Ballistic Tests
As a result of renewed law enforcement interest in the .223 round and in the newer weapons systems developed around it, the FBI recently subjected several various .223 caliber projectiles to 13 different ballistic tests and compared their performance to that of SMG-fired hollow point pistol bullets in 9mm, 10mm, and .40 S&W calibers.

Bottom Line: In every test, with the exception of soft body armor, which none of the SMG fired rounds defeated, the .223 penetrated less on average than any of the pistol bullets.



3) Safety — Another concern for the police is the potential for bullets to penetrate through walls and hit a target that wasn’t intended. According to the manual, this is another area where the patrol rifle shines:
“[T]he most popular patrol rifle round, the 5.56mm NATO (.223 Remington) will penetrate fewer walls than service pistol rounds or 12 gauge slugs.”

A
nd I saved the best for last, a video from the great warrior poet himself. Very educational and eye opening about over penetration AND pre-mapping and planning your battlefield BEFORE the actual battle and it's importance. Basically, everything I said in my first post. :)

I am not sure what rounds or bullets you were referencing other than the weight and caliber. I am no longer in the business of war or policing, so I don’t pre-sweep rooms, plan for impact zones, or game plan for firefights inside my house. Have fun and stay safe.
 
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