As far as stopping fights go I'm with Jeff Coopers school of thought. A big bullet in the right place.
5.56/.223 home defense ammo suggestions
- Thread starter Claudel Xerxes
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As far as stopping fights go I'm with Jeff Coopers school of thought. A big bullet in the right place.
FWIW:
I once got into a situation where we had small shot for coyote. Since the person who supplied the shells knew better, I assume it was an honest mistake. It was small shot - I think maybe #6 or #8. The results were cruel. Two shots before I figured out what was happening. Third shot did it, but only because the coyote was hemmed up and it was point blank. We're talking the muzzle just a few inches away.
For home defense I don't know squat, neither do I know about penetration through structures. But I do know those pellets didn't do much except at very close range.
Addendum
If you're wondering why I didn't notice loading, that's because I didn't load. Someone asked me to make the shot for them. Brings to mind that scene in Unforgiven where the deputy dumps out the loaded firearm handed to him and loads it himself.
Problem is destruction of the bullet traps. My favorite indoor range here has had to close an entire floor due to steel core ammo shooting out the traps. Unknown if and when they will get the funds to replace them. Even with signs and requiring you submit all rifle ammo for checking, folks still sneak cheap steel core in. When caught they lose their membership.
Yep thats grounds for revoking membership.
I cant remember what year we built the indoor range. I think it was 2000 or 2001. The armour plate used was bought at wholesale cost from the member who was a buyer for General Dynamics and I believe it cost $80,000. It was installed as one solid face sheet so replacing a section would be costly.
kelbro
Alfred Spatchcock
Probably low brass loads and coyotes are pretty tough.
I've blown holes through galvanized steel roofing with high brass dove loads. I would advise again, never stand in front of one.
Again, I would never state that dove loads are optimum but I am less concerned with over-penetration when using them. Backing them up in the magazine are a couple of rounds of buckshot. If I have to get that far into a situation, over-penetration will not be my highest priority.
+1 While this isn't always the optimal consideration of "what's behind your target," it is truthful, factual and the absolute reality of the matter.
While ideally in a home defense situation we could use the most lethal thing available, the one thing I have not seen enter into this discussion is legalities , civil or criminal. My thinking is we should use just enough force to stop the aggressor, or whatever you choose to call the person causing the problem. Notice I used the word STOP, not kill.
Pretty sure that would take a degree in ballistics to answer the age old questions of, what is enough bullet? What is not enough bullet? .22 short and .416 Rigby are the easy answers.
While we generally speak in the politically correct terms of "stopping the bad guy" instead of the legally prejudicial term of "kill", we must always remember that if we are not justified in killing someone, we are not justified in shooting them, with anything. There is no guarantee that a "shoot to wound" or "scare off" intention will not result in a lethal outcome. There's always the "Golden BB" scenario, where a small projectile strikes at just the right place to do extreme damage way beyond what is normally expected.
There is always, and should always be, both a criminal and civil risk involved every time someone fires any gun for any reason. And as a responsible gun owner that needs to be a constant reminder.
Guns are serious.
Guns are serious.
In Canada you can legally kill in defense of life only. Yours or anothers, with any means necessary. However, you better be able to prove that all other options had been exhausted and every step beyond the final outcome. If a firearm is involved you need to be able to prove that all laws were followed to the letter and that includes storage laws of both firearms and ammo and there was no other recourse than the act itself.
I've seen what it will do because my father did it. According to the police report, this was in the mid 1970's, a man was trying to break into the house. My father heard him and told him not to come in because he had a shotgun. My father was told by the person breaking in "Good, you're going to need it because I'm gonna kill you". My father sat at the top of the stairs with his old 16g Wingmaster and as soon as the door started open he fired a shot into the door frame scaring the person off at which point he called 911.
In the 1970's we didnt have the storage laws we have now so the only issue was, was he in fear of his life or others? He said he was and never faltered. He was told, explicitly, that he was going to be killed. No legal challenges came about, but that was then.
Do the same thing now and you can expect some legal challenges and a lot of money in lawyer fee's. The entire trail of circumstances from before the incident started to beyond the act itself, has to be readily proven.
My sister had boyfriend problems in the 1990's and the police were involved. I asked the officer involved what I could legally do if he came back because I was going to stay in her house and wait for him. I was told to make sure all doors and windows were locked and to call them if he showed up. If they cant get there quickly enough and he forced his way in, do what you have to do but do not kill him. As long as he's still outside, you have options. Once he comes in, you may still have options and they had better be fully exercised before you commit.
That reminded me of two friends I have. One, retired British SAS. The other, retired Selous Scout. Both used FN rifles exclusively through the 1970's and into the 1980s in active combat. I asked both why they thought so many countries adopted the AR platform. Both gave the same answer; Theres a higher chance of wounding with the smaller caliber. The AR(5.56) is a 'wounder', the FN(.308) is a killer.
Looks like I have caused some thought. First thing is you need to know your jurisdiction. ESOX said in Canada you can kill in defense of life only. Down here in Texas it can be in defense of life or property, property being "I think" any thing of value that can be taken, damaged or destroyed, it a lawn mower, livestock, pets??, not so sure about that one but pets are considered property. Breaking and entering, certainly. Down in Houston a some years back an older man saw a couple of persons breaking into a neighbors shed and stealing equipment. He shot and killed them and was no billed by the grand jury. Would that happen in another town in a different part of the state, now some years later, no one knows. I think it was determined to be a legal shooting under state law.
Remember, sanctions can be legal or civil and the civil sanctions can come into effect even if a shooting is deemed to be legal. And they can be expensive; very expensive.
Firearms laws are federal here so its the same everywhere in Canada.
Defense of property by physical force is even more complex. As I understand it, you can confront but not attack. If threatened you can defend yourself, but not your property. Do not use a weapon, of any sort, unless there is no other option, much like using a firearm. Even a broom can become a deadly weapon and you may be charged with use of a deadly weapon if you do use one against a 'trespasser'. Anything in your hand, when used during an attack or defense of attack changes it into a weapon.
Pets are included as property, but if someone comes on your property and your dog bites or attacks them, no matter what they're doing, you're liable unless they are defending you from physical attack. Even then you're liable for a civil suit at the least.
Things are changing in Canada. Violent crime is becoming more prevalent and widespread and we honestly have very little recourse but hoping the police show up in time. Basically, if you're cornered and have no other option available you can do what needs doing, but until that time you're at the mercy of someone else.
Last year we had a prowler in the neighborhood. A bold one. I have a second floor balcony on the front of my house. No one ever looks up so I see without being seen. I watched him casing houses with people inside them at 8pm one night last fall. Hes very brazen and even came across the street walking up and down the sidewalk watching the movements of the occupants. I confronted him three times from the balcony, once verbally when he started walking up a driveway and twice again with flashlight only, letting him know he was seen and being watched.
One night he went around the back of two houses, and he knew where the motion detectors for the lights were so he didnt trigger them. I went after him. My 1000 Lumen light in my left hand, my Cold Steel Ti-Lite in my right pocket. I didnt find him but I let the woman know across the street. She called the police and when they came I went out, knife still in my pocket on its clip, flashlight in hand. I was chastised for what I did and was told that they know who he is but havent caught him and he's known to carry a knife. I showed my light and he said "good, use it", not that" pointing to my pocket. He then told me not to confront but to call and report a suspicious person and let them handle it. I personally am unable to do that given that theres a chance it might turn into a home invasion, especially against a single middle aged woman living alone.
Again, I'm in the Jeff Copper school of thought;
"We continue to be exasperated by the view, apparently gaining momentum in certain circles, that armed robbery is okay as long as nobody gets hurt! The proper solution to armed robbery is a dead robber, on the scene." - Jeff Cooper
Learn the laws for the area, intimately.
Then there is also the Enola Gay school of Marshall Arts.
Civil might be the scariest down here, although probably not as bad in our rural area. I live just out of city limits, so city police is a no no, in fact their fire dept last year refused to respond out of city, even though there is a city fire station about 1 1/2 miles from us, so we have to rely on a volunteer dept about ten miles away. We are in a "crime free or low crime" area and sheriff's patrols are non existant. We did have some vehicle break in's last year, although the vehicles were unlocked and that's about it. The county is so large that if immediately available it might take a patrolman 30-40 minutes to respond to a call, so we are basically on our own. About 20 years ago my next door neighbor was a county judge, and told me he was going on vacation to Fla, and commented to me, "if you see anyone messing around our house, shoot them and I'll take care of it when I get back". Knowing him he meant it. I once saw a neighbors door open, they were not home, so I went over, armed and checked it out. We took care of each other, more so back then than now though.
The line of thought in past years was if you shot someone you hoped it would be fatal so they could not sue you, looking at everything now, their family might do so, so I think I will reserve any use of a firearm as an absolute last resort to protect my wife or myself.
I've heard the Israelis make good use of scoped Ruger 10/22s for this reason ... appropriate response for rock-throwers: wound him.
Lively thread.
AA
I wonder what their target is. Meaty part of the thigh or wait for the windup? lol
My 10/22 is the one gun I'll never be without. When it comes right down to it, it will do all that needs done by me these days out to 100 yards and then some.
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