I would learn to hone with tape and as you master the torque vs pressure technique you can practice honing on razors without tape. I have been honing for about six months and have a long way to go before I try and set a bevel without tape. The two razors that I have tried to hone without tape ended up with several decades worth of hone wear to the spine, luckily I was smart enough to use some eBay cheapies to experiment with.
Hone with tape or without
- Thread starter Luecke2326
- Start date
- The perceived issue with honing on tape is a cumulative one - doing it once is going to maybe alter your angel by 1˚ in most cases. The Nanny-State anti-tape rehetoric that has plaged these boards is always based on the effects of repeated honing on tape; where you start with a 15/16" blade with a 17˚ bevel and then you wind up with a 5/8" blade with a 25˚ bevel. I don't believe that actually happens and I am not one to worry about what 'might' happen over 100 yr time span. If I'm working with a well loved smiling wedge - I am not going to expect that I'll be able to maintain a theoretical perfect bevel angle across the entire edge anyway. Lastly, when I start on tape I finish on tape. If I want to start on tape and finish without tape then I will reset the bevel when I pull the tape off.
Correction, the blade width should be measured from the lower part of spine that contact the hone as in picture below. Not hole blade width shown in picture in quoted post.
As stated if you start on tape you finish on tape, setting the bevel with tape and then taking it off to finish does not accomplish much, the reason it's suggested new guys use tape for honing is most have a heavy hand when starting so it saves wear and tear as you learn, me I personally don't use tape unless the spine is worked, has gold wash or the owner has requested that it be taped.
kelbro
Alfred Spatchcock
Tried using tape once. Too much of a hassle for me. The razors that I buy are tools, not jewels so spine wear is just part of the game. I used the same two razors for nearly 30 years (before I found these websites and went broke buying stuff 
) and they still have minimal hone wear.
I do like the idea of applying a thin layer of tape after acquiring the edge to create a micro-bevel. I do that with my working knives and it does increase the tough-ness and still retains the sharp-ness. Just haven't gotten around to testing that theory.
) and they still have minimal hone wear.I do like the idea of applying a thin layer of tape after acquiring the edge to create a micro-bevel. I do that with my working knives and it does increase the tough-ness and still retains the sharp-ness. Just haven't gotten around to testing that theory.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Or it is honed monthly or bimonthly for the next 200 years. Or a big chip gets honed out.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
I use tape when there is a reason to use tape, ONLY.
When you hone, the edge gets worn away. The razor becomes narrower. Takes a while, but it does. The spine is supposed to get thinner, at the same time. The amount of steel at spine and edge are just about right, with a well made razor, to ensure that normal honing wears edge and spine proportionally. This is because the modern hollowground straight razor was intended to be honed with the spine on the hone, serving as a bevel guide. It was never meant to be honed with electrical tape, which was not even invented until 1946. When you put tape on the spine, you short circuit this ingenious detail of the razor's design. You defeat the purpose of it all. The razor gets narrower, but not thinner. Guess what that does to the bevel angle?
Some tape-o-maniacs point out that it takes a very long time indeed for taped honing to make a big difference in the razor's geometry. Okay. So why isn't a SMALL amount of difference important? And why does it matter whether it takes a long or short time to screw up the razor? The razor has a long useful life, if treated right. Plenty of 200 year old razors still shaving. So you think it is okay to mess it up in 20 years? That's very short sighted. Somebody will be cussing the idiot that honed his new to him, vintage ebay razor with tape, a hundred years from now. Don't be that idiot. That razor can outlive your grandchildren if you don't screw it up.
When a lot of steel must be removed from the razor, is when a lot of well meaning but so very wrong honers insist most insistently on using tape. This is the WORST time to use tape! This is when it really starts to make a difference!
Furthermore, tape immediately changes the bevel angle simply by the thickness of the tape. This is not gradual... this is immediate. But here is the problem. When you are really chasing the ultimate edge, but you use tape, your bevel angle is changing as the tape wears. Also, tape is compressible. So, the bevel angle is not consistent while honing. For ordinary folks who don't really care about sharpness, no biggie. Its only a degree or so, at most. As for me, I won't have it.
There is absolutely nothing to be gained by using tape, unless there is a sound mathematical basis behind the decision to use it. Do you tape the head of your hammer so it doesn't get dents in it? Of course not. It is a tool. There is no disadvantage to having the face of the hammer show visible signs of use. Same with a razor. It is a tool, not jewelry. It SHOULD look like it has been used, if it has been used.
If a razor is to be a showcased work of art, do yourself a favor, and don't even hone it at all. Shave with razors that you are not afraid to have showing a little honest, normal wear.
OMG, SPINE WEAR! THE HUMANITY! LOL. How positively HORRIBLE! Well, don't forget, you dont see the EDGE wear, because that steel is just gone. Gone. Gone. Just like the steel removed from the spine, leaving that shiny bevel on the spine. The difference, is that you can see the spine bevel. Prevent spine wear? Okay, fine. Now figure out how to prevent EDGE wear. Remember, its a geometry thing. They must wear in proportion. And WHAT DIFFERENCE does it make, that there is a visible bevel honed onto the spine? What do you think happened before the internet discussion groups began spreading the anti-gospel of taped honing? Or before electrical tape was even invented? Originally, all razors were honed without tape. And hollowground razors were honed spine and edge to the stone, together. The razor was made to be honed that way.
There are situations where tape can be useful. Normal honing of a normal hollowground razor is not one of them. If the bevel angle is too acute, then tape is a useful bandaid remedy for correcting the bevel angle. Eventually, over many years, the edge wear will catch up to the spine wear. Such acute bevels are not common. If you do not measure and calculate the bevel angle properly, then you don't even know. Wedges are also much easier to hone with tape. They were once honed freehand, sometimes with a thumbnail for a quick check of the honing angle. Tape makes it a lot easier. Wedges are meant to be honed with the "spine" elevated slightly, at least during the finishing stage. If you try to flat hone a full wedge, you will be forever getting a bevel, and it will be much too acute. The edge will be too delicate, and will topple easily. Tape elevates the back of the razor more consistently than freehand honing. It gives you a guide. Essentially, the tape becomes the spine of the razor.
I honestly don't see how this can possibly be a question. Tape, or not tape? If ever there was a no brainer, this is it.
Your razors. Do it like you feel it. But there is no valid reason TO USE tape, and there are plenty of reasons to NOT USE tape.
When you hone, the edge gets worn away. The razor becomes narrower. Takes a while, but it does. The spine is supposed to get thinner, at the same time. The amount of steel at spine and edge are just about right, with a well made razor, to ensure that normal honing wears edge and spine proportionally. This is because the modern hollowground straight razor was intended to be honed with the spine on the hone, serving as a bevel guide. It was never meant to be honed with electrical tape, which was not even invented until 1946. When you put tape on the spine, you short circuit this ingenious detail of the razor's design. You defeat the purpose of it all. The razor gets narrower, but not thinner. Guess what that does to the bevel angle?
Some tape-o-maniacs point out that it takes a very long time indeed for taped honing to make a big difference in the razor's geometry. Okay. So why isn't a SMALL amount of difference important? And why does it matter whether it takes a long or short time to screw up the razor? The razor has a long useful life, if treated right. Plenty of 200 year old razors still shaving. So you think it is okay to mess it up in 20 years? That's very short sighted. Somebody will be cussing the idiot that honed his new to him, vintage ebay razor with tape, a hundred years from now. Don't be that idiot. That razor can outlive your grandchildren if you don't screw it up.
When a lot of steel must be removed from the razor, is when a lot of well meaning but so very wrong honers insist most insistently on using tape. This is the WORST time to use tape! This is when it really starts to make a difference!
Furthermore, tape immediately changes the bevel angle simply by the thickness of the tape. This is not gradual... this is immediate. But here is the problem. When you are really chasing the ultimate edge, but you use tape, your bevel angle is changing as the tape wears. Also, tape is compressible. So, the bevel angle is not consistent while honing. For ordinary folks who don't really care about sharpness, no biggie. Its only a degree or so, at most. As for me, I won't have it.
There is absolutely nothing to be gained by using tape, unless there is a sound mathematical basis behind the decision to use it. Do you tape the head of your hammer so it doesn't get dents in it? Of course not. It is a tool. There is no disadvantage to having the face of the hammer show visible signs of use. Same with a razor. It is a tool, not jewelry. It SHOULD look like it has been used, if it has been used.
If a razor is to be a showcased work of art, do yourself a favor, and don't even hone it at all. Shave with razors that you are not afraid to have showing a little honest, normal wear.
OMG, SPINE WEAR! THE HUMANITY! LOL. How positively HORRIBLE! Well, don't forget, you dont see the EDGE wear, because that steel is just gone. Gone. Gone. Just like the steel removed from the spine, leaving that shiny bevel on the spine. The difference, is that you can see the spine bevel. Prevent spine wear? Okay, fine. Now figure out how to prevent EDGE wear. Remember, its a geometry thing. They must wear in proportion. And WHAT DIFFERENCE does it make, that there is a visible bevel honed onto the spine? What do you think happened before the internet discussion groups began spreading the anti-gospel of taped honing? Or before electrical tape was even invented? Originally, all razors were honed without tape. And hollowground razors were honed spine and edge to the stone, together. The razor was made to be honed that way.
There are situations where tape can be useful. Normal honing of a normal hollowground razor is not one of them. If the bevel angle is too acute, then tape is a useful bandaid remedy for correcting the bevel angle. Eventually, over many years, the edge wear will catch up to the spine wear. Such acute bevels are not common. If you do not measure and calculate the bevel angle properly, then you don't even know. Wedges are also much easier to hone with tape. They were once honed freehand, sometimes with a thumbnail for a quick check of the honing angle. Tape makes it a lot easier. Wedges are meant to be honed with the "spine" elevated slightly, at least during the finishing stage. If you try to flat hone a full wedge, you will be forever getting a bevel, and it will be much too acute. The edge will be too delicate, and will topple easily. Tape elevates the back of the razor more consistently than freehand honing. It gives you a guide. Essentially, the tape becomes the spine of the razor.
I honestly don't see how this can possibly be a question. Tape, or not tape? If ever there was a no brainer, this is it.
Your razors. Do it like you feel it. But there is no valid reason TO USE tape, and there are plenty of reasons to NOT USE tape.
Right on Will.
Same here. The amount of steel we are talking about is really small. So is the gold wash, so you would have a stripe where the spine contacted the hone. It is a cosmetic thing. Same with a worked spine. Like you if someone asks for me to use tape, I do from bevel to finish. You can also polish the spine to lessen the contrast with the contact point. Lots of options.
Done properly, honewear is even across the spine and as we learn how to hone we figure out how to use torque effectively thus further reducing honewear on the spine.
Yes, the geometry must be maintained, but it would be many years before that was an issue if you know what you are doing.
There is lots of heated debate about this but a respected honemeister pretty much put it to bed with a video experiment a while back. You can find it pretty easily on YouTube. While you're there you can subscribe to his channel he has some great stuff there.
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Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
That's correct.
I use a spreadsheet that I wrote, but I have no way to post it here and I can't post the url of the site where I did post it. The spreadsheet is nice because it populates a grid with values of bevel angle for a range of widths and spine thicknesses, so I can watch my progress as I thin a spine, for instance, which I do a lot of when modifying GDs. But basically it is a simple matter of taking half the spine thickness for the OPPOSITE side of a right triangle. The distance between the upper limit of the spine's bevel to the edge is the HYPOTENUSE. Solve for the acute angle with S=O/H. Find the angle for the resulting sine, and double it, and there is your bevel angle.
Where does one get the Mitutoyo tool at a reasonable price? I can't say I've looked much but the ones I've seen are over a hundred. I didn't look at Harbor Freight even, just a quick search. Opps, just looked at Harbor Freight and ya, they have one for 20.00
try sporting goods stores that sell reloading supplies. reloaders use the for measuring cases. I got mine for around $30 some time ago.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
HF has cheap dial calipers. That's what I use. Probably find at Home Depot as well.
To the OP: If you have enough razors why don't you designate a couple to be honed with tape and the others without it and just take note of any differences in wear and/or shave quality and create a journal.
I personally dislike tape but ONLY because it seriously undermines my since of feedback from the hone. Tape has a dampening effect on honing feedback that's more than I can adjust to...
I personally dislike tape but ONLY because it seriously undermines my since of feedback from the hone. Tape has a dampening effect on honing feedback that's more than I can adjust to...
Last edited:
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
That experiment would take too long. Takes many years to see a difference. Just don't tape, and don't worry bout it.
PRECISELY! LOL.
- Thread starter
- #38
Ok, first razor! Couldn't get the bevel to come together W/O tape.......
Second razor however, no tape, it came together no problem, I think I'm not going to use tape unless there is a geometry issue. I'm so thankful for all your comments, this has turned into an excellent thread for newbies. Every new guy should read this thread when learning to hone.
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Second razor however, no tape, it came together no problem, I think I'm not going to use tape unless there is a geometry issue. I'm so thankful for all your comments, this has turned into an excellent thread for newbies. Every new guy should read this thread when learning to hone.
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Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Try the burr method for setting the bevel on the first razor. But first, look down the end of the razor. If it looks like the spine is impossibly thin, measure and calculate the bevel angle. If it is under 15 degrees or so, then tape might be a good idea. Most likely the apex was somewhat rounded and you just didn't hone enough to make the bevel meet at the edge. The burr method gets around that.
I would venture to guess that you simply did not have enough patience on the first razor. Congratulatioons on the second one. Shaved with it yet?
I would venture to guess that you simply did not have enough patience on the first razor. Congratulatioons on the second one. Shaved with it yet?
- Thread starter
- #40
Shaved with the first one for a near BBS, the second one gets a go tonight after I cut the grass.
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