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Hone with tape or without

Try the burr method for setting the bevel on the first razor. But first, look down the end of the razor. If it looks like the spine is impossibly thin, measure and calculate the bevel angle. If it is under 15 degrees or so, then tape might be a good idea. Most likely the apex was somewhat rounded and you just didn't hone enough to make the bevel meet at the edge. The burr method gets around that.

I would venture to guess that you simply did not have enough patience on the first razor. Congratulatioons on the second one. Shaved with it yet?

Ok, wow! The burr method rocks! I really like that you have some really nice tactile feedback while setting the bevel. As you feel the bur form, you can tell you are making real progress. I tried the method on my SSA Eskilstuna, the bevel came together after 205 passes on each side and then ten heavy handed laps followed by thirty lighter and lighter laps. At this point, I couldn't pop hairs, but the thumb pad test revealed the best bevel I've set yet! I decided to test it on a cherry tomato too, the razor won no contest! I then did about 40 laps on the 4K Norton and 20 on the 8K Norton followed by 8 Laps on the Swaty Three Line and lastly 8 laps on CrOx. Stropped it on linen for 40 laps then 100 laps on leather and it turned into a hair popping machine! I'll shave with it and a Herm. Konejung Solingen tonight on opposite sides of my face to see how I did.
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That experiment would take too long. Takes many years to see a difference. Just don't tape, and don't worry bout it.

How can I measure to make sure the razor edge is centered with the base and the triangle it forms isn't a Scalene Triangle? I have been wondering about this for awhile and really can't think of an easy way to measure it to know if it is or not. Other than eyeing it and that isn't very accurate for me. I can't hang a picture without a level and be even close. Ya, I know they are different but still, you get the idea.
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
How can I measure to make sure the razor edge is centered with the base and the triangle it forms isn't a Scalene Triangle? I have been wondering about this for awhile and really can't think of an easy way to measure it to know if it is or not. Other than eyeing it and that isn't very accurate for me. I can't hang a picture without a level and be even close. Ya, I know they are different but still, you get the idea.

I think you should probably just assume an isoceles triangle. I doubt if the difference will be significant. If your calculations are accurate to the nearest half degree they should be valid and useful, anyway. If it is visibly wonky, you might measure the hypotenuse on both sides, and average it. I am guessing accuracy will still be in the quarter degree range if you do that. It takes about a degree of change in bevel angle, and rather consistent honing, to be noticeable at all in the shave, IME. YMMV, you might be more sensitive to variation than I am. Or less.

The sweet spot is pretty narrow, typically between 16 and 17 degrees, but the range where the razor will still shave at all has been demonstrated to be pretty wide. A ZY out of the box is nearly 20 degrees, a Gold Dollar 0ver 18, and when well honed, both of these razors will deliver a shave of sorts if you do your part. Some vintage razors I have found to be not much over 14 degrees and were still useful as shavers even without a compound bevel. Your personal sweet spot could well be different. A fatter bevel angle could make for a more forgiving shaver. A more acute one, assuming the steel will support it and it is carefully honed, will cut whiskers more effortlessly though of course it will be quick to cut skin, too, and irritate if poorly finished or stropped. There is a little bit of balance there.
 
The angle thing I haven't found to make that much of a difference. I can get as wicked a shave from my gds or zys as I can from the other 90 or so vintages of all sorts. The edge finish imo has more to do with how efficient it cuts. Didnt someone measure a feather pro blade at a staggering 25 degree bevel angle? I doubt anyone will say those are sloppy shavers. Correct me if I'm wrong on the angle of the feather pro.
 

Steve56

Ask me about shaving naked!
It would be interesting if someone tested the 'sweet spot' on different media. Could it be different depending on whether you honed on synths, film, jnat, Escher, coti.... Since the honing media affects the 'feel', I would guess yes.

Cheers, Steve
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
Sure, except for some, the sweet spot has little to do with sharpness. For me, it is sheer cutting power first and foremost, assuming of course an edge that is free of artifacts.
 
It would be interesting if someone tested the 'sweet spot' on different media. Could it be different depending on whether you honed on synths, film, jnat, Escher, coti.... Since the honing media affects the 'feel', I would guess yes.

Cheers, Steve
That would vary considerably among individual shavers I'm sure. I personally believe though that the stones potential have long surpassed our skin tolerance. But that's another can of worms that im not trying to open. Lol.
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
The angle thing I haven't found to make that much of a difference. I can get as wicked a shave from my gds or zys as I can from the other 90 or so vintages of all sorts. The edge finish imo has more to do with how efficient it cuts. Didnt someone measure a feather pro blade at a staggering 25 degree bevel angle? I doubt anyone will say those are sloppy shavers. Correct me if I'm wrong on the angle of the feather pro.

It is true that disposable blades have a pretty big final bevel angle. However, because they are so thin, there is a lot of relief. The bevel has very small shoulders. An unsupported straight razor ground that way would be pretty wonky. The disposable blades for the most part are well supported by their holders. Also the high tech coatings have a lot to do with it. Compare a blue blade to a nice chromium blade from the same era. Our straights do not have a coating of exotic metal... they are just tool steel.

The finish is indeed important, but one should assume that ANY edge gets a good finish, since the tools to do so are available in many forms. There is ultra fine synthetic stones, diamond and CBN down into the nanometer range, naturals such as Jnats and all sorts of fine slurry stones, buffering agents and the knowledge of how to use them, and the collective skill and knowledge of the internet. EVERY razor, especially self honed for self use, ought to have an irreproachable finish on the bevel, and a clear, straight apex. This is part of the "all other things being equal" stuff.

I have spent considerable time honing stock Gold Dollars. They can be made to shave well enough. They can be made to shave very nicely, by most people's standards. Yet, the same razor with the bevel angle reduced to 16 degrees or so will definitely shave better, with more cutting power, and I am quite spoiled now, and won't bother to shave with a stock GD. Some of course will prefer that big beefy out of the box bevel. You can get a little sloppy with it and it still won't cut you up like a more sporty razor might. In that regard, it can be excellent. But the ZY is really pushing it, for me. The edge I put on the two I had was quite well received by the guy I sold them to, and he apparently liked the shave, but they were to me, lacking, and it was all about geometry. They just didn't have the keenness I like. I carefully took these out to .1u diamond embedded into balsa multiple times, and the edge and bevel under 200x was practically flawless. But the shave didn't thrill me. Smooth as all get out, of course, but lacking in raw aggression. So I sold them as a pair, to someone who might appreciate them.
 
A few years ago I thinned a GD spine. Took it out to the workshed with my calipers. I dont remember the parameters but I got it into the 15 degree range. Honed it and shaved it. Didn't seem to be more aggressive. I will say this I've maxed a zy on one of my stores. And it is not something I prefer to shave with. Meaning it's wicked keen and not.to my liking. Why would I try to make it more aggressive when I can get that as is? It takes a while to thin them. And I would rather work the stone than the grinding wheel. As I can get a beautiful shave with the zy as is. I have 90 non GD/zys of all.types to.compare then to. I haven't found the variety of razors and bevel angles to be as relevant as the finishing. I have found no meaningful difference in all these blades, how they shave, hht etc. I am not saying you or anyone else has to agree with me. All I'm saying is I have to believe my own eyes. I used to have favorites. When I started I bought about 35 vintages and started identifying them as good or bad based on the shave. Now I will say about half of them shaved great. The other half were put into a bin. Until I really had my.honing down. Then I took all the "bad" ones and proceeded to hone them up to great shavers. My first favorite was a JR Torrey 6/8 near wedge. Best shaver Eva! I said. Now they all shave as well as I hone them. I find the info academic. I haven't found it to be relevant though. I think guys can learn the most by honing and shaving a fresh edge as often as possible. Setting the bevel and developing an accurate stroke and a few finishing techniques that will max your stone if you want goes a lot further than a set of calipers. Jmo. And I am not trying to stir the pot.
 
Wow this thread is amazing. I'm trying to gather as much information before I start honing myself and this thread was chocked full of information.

Thank you sirs.
 

IMightBeWrong

Loves a smelly brush
No tape. Razor is a tool for shaving, not a decoration to me. The only thing that could change my mind is if I get a razor with excessive spine wear from too much pressure or if I purposely decide I want to add a microbevel for some reason. As for the idea of wanting some razors to have a different angle, if I had a razor that I wanted a wider edge angle on I would still start without tape and then tape for a few strokes for a microbevel so that my starting point each time I hone it remains the same and the edge doesn't slowly get wider each time.
 
It is interesting that a lot of people say no tape. However when one goes to sell a razor the first thing others say is about the spine wear.
 
I have eliminated tape from my honing. On the old worn out razors they just become a little more worn out. Newer edges or spines are looking OK after honing
 
I have a new Topak Kamisori......Have never shaved with one, and my days of shaving with a folding straight ended in the mid 70's......I want to ask some advice here , does it help to tape the spine when stropping ??....Also , I have been using nothing but Venetian Shoe Cream on all my leather goods since the 1960's, it's the same cream Horween Leather has used for decades , and they know leather..Do you guys think it will be fine on a leather strop ?...Any advice for a novice with a Kamisori will be appreciated..Thanks in advance !
 
It could possible effect the draw on the strop.If stop is a little dry I would put a few drops of neats foot oil on my hands .Than hand rub the stop.You do not want a lot of any product when you are conditioning strop.Less is better .
 
I don't like using tape, per se, but I do use it when I feel it's needed. For bevel setting a wonky razor I might use it until it's dialed in closer then switch back to no tape, then from there on out not use tape at all, unless it's needed for an angle increase as Vic noted. Going too narrow on angle will definitely make the edge very weak, this all depends on the steel composition and its hardness.

I agree that the best way to learn is through plenty of practice and repetition. In the beginning of my honing escapades I was often honing several razors every day and shaving with 4 razors at a time - one per quadrant of my face. I don't so much notice a difference in feel with slight changes in bevel angle, but there is some discernible difference in keenness sometimes. Very slight though for me.
 
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