Hi guys, this Fillifan from Ohio and I would like some suggestions to achieve a mirror super sharp edge. I now have a hard Ark, about 1k I use to work over a razor new to me. Then with black electrical tape on spine I go to a coticule with slurry, 6k or without maybe 8k. Then I go to a Kiita of maybe 10k, first with slurry and then without. After this I have a good level edge with a gray or hazy stripe, but some small scratches visible at 40x. Then I have been going to a paddle charged with green crox and then an 8k diamond paddle. This seems to give a pretty good edge and shave, but I wonder if there is a synthetic or jnat for this final polish I should be looking at to get a more uniform grey stripe along my bevel. Thanks very much.
Help with honing
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Jnats and coticules are going to give the edge a hazey looking bevel. Would need synthetic stones for a better mirror. More jnat work though should remove more of the scratches. With the right angles and light a lot of bevels looked super mirror online.
Lowly humble opinion....
if you go to 10K then back to 8K you going backwards.
not getting over carried away technically, CrOx is aprox 1 micron, my calipers may or may not be accurate
8K is approx 3 micron
thereto hence, i would swap the order of CrOx and diamond 8K
if you go to 10K then back to 8K you going backwards.
not getting over carried away technically, CrOx is aprox 1 micron, my calipers may or may not be accurate
8K is approx 3 micron
thereto hence, i would swap the order of CrOx and diamond 8K
Particle size does not give you the full picture. If a jnat particle is shaped like corn flakes and aluminum oxide has a completely different shape and hardness, they will affect the steel differently. Jnat particles also wear down a little.
You can't assign a grit rating to Jnat's relative to a synthetic stone.
I have never been able to improve a jnat edge with CrOx or diamonds.
It might help if you spent more time learning your jnat.
You shave with the edge. So, a polished bevel is not telling you anything about the edge.
This is a kasumi finished bevel with a polished apex.
^^^ This. And it needed to be said (or in this case, written).
I have intentionally tried both paste and diamond sprays on both balsa and on cotton strops just to see if a finished JNAT edge could be improved. Not once could I get anything as close to smooth AND sharp. What I would get was sharp and not smooth at all.
so, you are saying i can polish steel with 1200, then get it better with 800 or a 1000?
and never used a Jnat in me life, nor do i intend to. i can't see the point of buying an overly expensive rock just because it is the ''in'' thing to do.
i have one rock, it works
Different rocks have different cutting compounds in them, which affect the edge and skin feel very differently. An edge off 15k diamond paste may be technically sharper than a good Coticule garnet edge, but I know which one I’d rather shave with.
- Thread starter
- #8
Thanks for all those suggestions. I will reverse the order of 8k diamond and crox and see how it goes.
Have you shaved off the Kiita edge? What's that like? CrOx is aggressive enough that you could hit it after the coticule save a few steps, if you like the way the CrOx edge shaves.
Not to sure about the guesses on grit rating on
the coticule and jnat. I would get the bevel set then go to the coiticule and do a full diluticot. You should have a shave ready razor at that point. Then go to the jnat if you want if you feel it improves the edge. Not all jnats will improve a really good coticule edge. I would learn the coticule real well and make certain you could shave off it before going to another stone.
the coticule and jnat. I would get the bevel set then go to the coiticule and do a full diluticot. You should have a shave ready razor at that point. Then go to the jnat if you want if you feel it improves the edge. Not all jnats will improve a really good coticule edge. I would learn the coticule real well and make certain you could shave off it before going to another stone.
Tell me more about your hard Ark. 1K sounds kind of iffy. If it's a hard Black or Translucent hard Ark you're in business. A properly flattened and dressed Black or Translucent is hard to beat as a finisher and provides a skin friendly smooth shave.
If you are starting out, leave the pastes alone until honing is squared away. I don't look at bevel polish any more, just the smoothness of the apex. A lot of natural stones leave the bevels looking sand blasted under magnification. No biggie, a sweet apex and I'm real happy....
If you are starting out, leave the pastes alone until honing is squared away. I don't look at bevel polish any more, just the smoothness of the apex. A lot of natural stones leave the bevels looking sand blasted under magnification. No biggie, a sweet apex and I'm real happy....
- Thread starter
- #12
I have a Clauss I have been saving to hone. To determine the relative grits of Kiita and coticule I thought to put on tape to reset bevel, then do 25 strokes slurry and then no slurry on each side. One side Kiita and one side coticule and then compare the finish with a 40X. Do you think major grit differences would show up that way? Thanks
My fine fellow, with your list of abrasives (honing medium) mentioned, you might be allowing your self too many options.
This sounds good:
"Then I go to a Kiita of maybe 10k, first with slurry and then without. After this I have a good level edge with a gray or hazy stripe, but some small scratches visible at 40x."
That is more often than not the first step in working with the kiita. You will most likely need to repeat that Kiita step 2 or 3 times, with thinner slurry to remove (actually reduce the depth of) those 40x visible scratches.
I strop (40 strokes) between each set of honing strokes. And look at your edge after stropping. The edge should look brighter. The perfect match of stone to steel will be in the form of shave-ready with the fewest number of abrasive strokes.
The principles of razor honing are first that you stay consistent with the medium in hand, and that you refine your technique and master that medium with that particular blade before you move to the next stone. The type and quality of your stones and other abrasive minerals in your inventory are all capable of helping you hone a razor. My suggestion would be that you refine your technique with just one abrasive and master that on any one particular blade before you move on to another type of stone.
Our contact with the stone when holding the blade, your movement of this steel object is most likely where your problem resides. The abrasives react to our movement of the blade, this must be true.
The lightest pressure on your blade in the touching of the stone will, with skill, give you the keenest edge. The heaviest pressure on the blade will contort this, the thinnest part of the blade.
I find that consistent pressure is more important than the downward force. A honing method for any blade involves using a repetitive and consistent technique. I always count strokes. Here is an older video of mine that could give you some ideas.
This sounds good:
"Then I go to a Kiita of maybe 10k, first with slurry and then without. After this I have a good level edge with a gray or hazy stripe, but some small scratches visible at 40x."
That is more often than not the first step in working with the kiita. You will most likely need to repeat that Kiita step 2 or 3 times, with thinner slurry to remove (actually reduce the depth of) those 40x visible scratches.
I strop (40 strokes) between each set of honing strokes. And look at your edge after stropping. The edge should look brighter. The perfect match of stone to steel will be in the form of shave-ready with the fewest number of abrasive strokes.
The principles of razor honing are first that you stay consistent with the medium in hand, and that you refine your technique and master that medium with that particular blade before you move to the next stone. The type and quality of your stones and other abrasive minerals in your inventory are all capable of helping you hone a razor. My suggestion would be that you refine your technique with just one abrasive and master that on any one particular blade before you move on to another type of stone.
Our contact with the stone when holding the blade, your movement of this steel object is most likely where your problem resides. The abrasives react to our movement of the blade, this must be true.
The lightest pressure on your blade in the touching of the stone will, with skill, give you the keenest edge. The heaviest pressure on the blade will contort this, the thinnest part of the blade.
I find that consistent pressure is more important than the downward force. A honing method for any blade involves using a repetitive and consistent technique. I always count strokes. Here is an older video of mine that could give you some ideas.
Yes and No, they would look very different, but that means nothing to the edge.
When we tell new honers to remove all the stria, we are talking about synthetic stones and the deep bevel setting stria that will end in a chip at the edge.
First, post photos of your razor, the whole blade both sides as clear and close as you can, to eliminate the blade as a potential source of a problem.
Second disregard all you “grit rating” of natural stones. You can use them in a “progression”, once you have calibrated them, (understand where they fit in a refinement order) but you cannot just pull grit number out of the air for natural stones.
Third, yes do use tape on the spine until you have mastered honing, too many new honers have needlessly trashed good razor doing way too many laps on aggressive stones with too much pressure.
You can set a bevel on a hard Ark, but it does take some work if the stone has that potential. They are natural stones, so your Hard Ark and my Hard Ark may be completely different in performance. Also razor honing experience plays a large, very large part in results with Arks.
Looking straight down on the edge with magnification is the easiest and most comprehensive way to tell if the bevels are meeting fully. If you see any shiny reflections, the bevels are not meeting, or edge is chipped or rolled. Hone until there are no shiny reflections.
Once the bevels are fully set, then it is all about polishing the bevels to straighten the edge, without mucking up the edge.
The trick to learning to hone a razor is to minimize the variables, you have added a lot or needless variables, natural stones and paste. You should be able to set a bevel on a hard Ark, (not black or translucent), and finish the razor on a Coticule or Jnat with slurry and thin the slurry to refine the edge. Not both, one or the other, but for a new honer that can be difficult and a lot depends on if the bevels were fully and properly set.
The hardest part of your scenario is fully setting the bevels. A good 1k will make your life much easier. A King 1k is $20, a 1/6k King combo stone is 25-30 and you can easily finish on a Jnat from the 6k edge. The 6k will easily remove all the deep 1k stria.
Post photos of your razor for better advice.
Skip both paste, you should get a keen comfortable edge from the Jnat without paste. Paste is a double edge sword, it can polish, but if you have not mastered stropping, it can just as easily damage the edge.
How did you test to ensure that the bevel was fully set, (flat, at the correct bevel angle and bevels meeting fully?)
When we tell new honers to remove all the stria, we are talking about synthetic stones and the deep bevel setting stria that will end in a chip at the edge.
First, post photos of your razor, the whole blade both sides as clear and close as you can, to eliminate the blade as a potential source of a problem.
Second disregard all you “grit rating” of natural stones. You can use them in a “progression”, once you have calibrated them, (understand where they fit in a refinement order) but you cannot just pull grit number out of the air for natural stones.
Third, yes do use tape on the spine until you have mastered honing, too many new honers have needlessly trashed good razor doing way too many laps on aggressive stones with too much pressure.
You can set a bevel on a hard Ark, but it does take some work if the stone has that potential. They are natural stones, so your Hard Ark and my Hard Ark may be completely different in performance. Also razor honing experience plays a large, very large part in results with Arks.
Looking straight down on the edge with magnification is the easiest and most comprehensive way to tell if the bevels are meeting fully. If you see any shiny reflections, the bevels are not meeting, or edge is chipped or rolled. Hone until there are no shiny reflections.
Once the bevels are fully set, then it is all about polishing the bevels to straighten the edge, without mucking up the edge.
The trick to learning to hone a razor is to minimize the variables, you have added a lot or needless variables, natural stones and paste. You should be able to set a bevel on a hard Ark, (not black or translucent), and finish the razor on a Coticule or Jnat with slurry and thin the slurry to refine the edge. Not both, one or the other, but for a new honer that can be difficult and a lot depends on if the bevels were fully and properly set.
The hardest part of your scenario is fully setting the bevels. A good 1k will make your life much easier. A King 1k is $20, a 1/6k King combo stone is 25-30 and you can easily finish on a Jnat from the 6k edge. The 6k will easily remove all the deep 1k stria.
Post photos of your razor for better advice.
Skip both paste, you should get a keen comfortable edge from the Jnat without paste. Paste is a double edge sword, it can polish, but if you have not mastered stropping, it can just as easily damage the edge.
How did you test to ensure that the bevel was fully set, (flat, at the correct bevel angle and bevels meeting fully?)
- Thread starter
- #15
Well, this is a lot to take in I have several razors honed by others who are very skilled. I looked at their edges with 40x loupe. I used tape, did my new bevel on a T-I on my Ark It is black but this could be old oil. (I lapped the ark with diamond plate first) Then went to cot and did with and without slurry, then to kiita and shaved. Not perfect Then tried lapping on paddle with diamond 8 k and crox. Shaved again Much better. My edges now compare in performance with the edges on the two professionally done razors I have I used to have a pair of Jos R. back in the late 50s and a coticule stone. I simply used the cot as I did not know any better, every so often when razor was not cutting. Otherwise just stropped. I recall I got very decent shaves. But now so much info is out there.
“This seems to give a pretty good edge and shave, but I wonder if there is a synthetic or jnat for this final polish I should be looking at to get a more uniform grey stripe along my bevel. Thanks very much.”
So, if you are now saying you are happy with your edges, is your question about how the bevels look?
If so, how a bevel looks can tell one several things, but you can have a mirror bevel, where the bevels are not meeting fully and will not shave well, or a bevel that does not look uniform, does shave well.
Bottom line, you are throwing a lot at your bevels, and you are using at least 4 finishers on your razors, 2 stones that should be capable of producing a shaving edge and 2 paste.
Simplifying your progression generally produces better results, as Alex’s post and video show honing on a synthetic bevel setter and Jnat are easily possible as is Synthetic to Coticule where no paste are required.
Post a photo of your razor for better results.
So, if you are now saying you are happy with your edges, is your question about how the bevels look?
If so, how a bevel looks can tell one several things, but you can have a mirror bevel, where the bevels are not meeting fully and will not shave well, or a bevel that does not look uniform, does shave well.
Bottom line, you are throwing a lot at your bevels, and you are using at least 4 finishers on your razors, 2 stones that should be capable of producing a shaving edge and 2 paste.
Simplifying your progression generally produces better results, as Alex’s post and video show honing on a synthetic bevel setter and Jnat are easily possible as is Synthetic to Coticule where no paste are required.
Post a photo of your razor for better results.
When going from slurry to no slurry you need to slowly dilute the slurry with water until it's clear. Do this as you're honing and it gives the effect of going through different grits. My Clauss(my usual go to razor) does REALLY well on coticules. It seems like I can get it sharper on my coticules than any other razor I own(on t those same coticules). The steel on that razor plays well with the garnets in the coticule. Watch a video on the dilucot method, that's the way to go. If it's not keen enough jump to that jnat with plain water for about 25 super light laps then strop on leather. You can bump a coticule edge by finishing on thinned lather instead of water. That's how I usually finish them.
Where you at in Ohio?
Send a good quality vintage or new razor to Alfredo (@Doc226) so you understand how an excellent edge shaves and you have a standard.
Then make sure you have the following stones:
Do what Alex (@alx gilmore) says. Go easy on the pressure and finish each grit with light to no pressure. Why? Because more pressure generates deeper scratches and deeper scratchers take more work to remove.
Watch this video from Alfredo at 11:30:
Good luck and welcome to the rabbit hole!
*Dan's Whetstone uses the term "true hard" for their hardest, finest stones. This is what you want for an Arkansas finishing stone. Either a Dan's true hard or a vintage Norton or Pike hard Arkansas.
Then make sure you have the following stones:
- Bevel setting stone - most guys use a 1,000/2,000 grit synthetic stone
- Bevel correcting stone - like a 3,000/4,000 grit synthetic stone
- Midrange stone - like an 8,000 grit synthetic stone
- Finishing stone - like a 12,000 grit synthetic or true hard* Arkansas or fine JNAT or fine Coticule or fine Thuringian
Do what Alex (@alx gilmore) says. Go easy on the pressure and finish each grit with light to no pressure. Why? Because more pressure generates deeper scratches and deeper scratchers take more work to remove.
Watch this video from Alfredo at 11:30:
Good luck and welcome to the rabbit hole!
*Dan's Whetstone uses the term "true hard" for their hardest, finest stones. This is what you want for an Arkansas finishing stone. Either a Dan's true hard or a vintage Norton or Pike hard Arkansas.
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- Thread starter
- #20
Many thanks. I am in Columbus. I am going to do some tests on some Fillis I have in get ready to shave pile with the two mid range stones and then shave 1/2 face to see which is the best edge resulting from the two stones. This ought to give me some data. Can't be more objective than that.
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