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- #21
Cerex 5K 15 laps and zoom out pic
Help with honing a Dovo
- Thread starter Rick1500
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- #22
First pic; Black Shadow using an 8K slurry for 20 laps watering down as I go
second pic is a Black Shadow with a no slurry after 75 laps (similar results with a black shadow stone slurry and fewer laps)
I was using the 8K slurry to try and reduce the 5K to Black Shadow gap
second pic is a Black Shadow with a no slurry after 75 laps (similar results with a black shadow stone slurry and fewer laps)
I was using the 8K slurry to try and reduce the 5K to Black Shadow gap
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- #23
Arkansas Translucent finish using oil and 10 laps
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- #25
Ark Trans with oil 20 laps
2nd pic; Ark Trans oil 20 laps zoomed out
2nd pic; Ark Trans oil 20 laps zoomed out
First if you are going to compare micrograph of various stones and stone grits, photograph the same spot so that you can compare any improvement or issues. Mark a line from the edge from the edge to the spine with a colored sharpie, then use that registration mark and photograph that same spot each time, so you can compare the bevels and edge, to a known edge.
As we can see in the two photos in post 22, that stone (second pic is a Black Shadow with a no slurry after 75 laps) appears to have destroyed the edge, or are we looking at a different spot from the first photo in post 22, (First pic; Black Shadow using an 8K slurry for 20 laps) and all that edge damage always there.
Second learn to hone on synthetic progression, then learn naturals. Natural stone are made over thousands of years, of unknow grit an unknown grit size. All 1k synthetic stones contain 1k grit, from the same maker, they will all have the same size and abrasive grit. Your 1k X stone, will be exactly like my 1k X stone. Your Black Shadow and mine, can be wildly different and leave you spinning your wheels.
Learning to hone is about eliminating as many variables as possible, not introducing a host of variables.
Learn to perfect an 8k edge, then see if your naturals can improve the 8k edge. Your Natural stones are of an unknow grit and likely not finer than 8k, so you may be going backwards in grit.
Synthetic grit does not break down like natural stone grit and will damage the edge by impacting the grit and cause chipping.
If you are going to finish on a Translucent Ark, the edge will need to be a shave ready 8k edge or you will be doing a lot of laps. Has you Translucent been lapped?
You have a 1k, 5k and an 8K? Which brand of 8k do you have?
Have all the stones been lapped and the edges beveled or rounded? What are you using to lap your stones?
As we can see in the two photos in post 22, that stone (second pic is a Black Shadow with a no slurry after 75 laps) appears to have destroyed the edge, or are we looking at a different spot from the first photo in post 22, (First pic; Black Shadow using an 8K slurry for 20 laps) and all that edge damage always there.
Second learn to hone on synthetic progression, then learn naturals. Natural stone are made over thousands of years, of unknow grit an unknown grit size. All 1k synthetic stones contain 1k grit, from the same maker, they will all have the same size and abrasive grit. Your 1k X stone, will be exactly like my 1k X stone. Your Black Shadow and mine, can be wildly different and leave you spinning your wheels.
Learning to hone is about eliminating as many variables as possible, not introducing a host of variables.
Learn to perfect an 8k edge, then see if your naturals can improve the 8k edge. Your Natural stones are of an unknow grit and likely not finer than 8k, so you may be going backwards in grit.
Synthetic grit does not break down like natural stone grit and will damage the edge by impacting the grit and cause chipping.
If you are going to finish on a Translucent Ark, the edge will need to be a shave ready 8k edge or you will be doing a lot of laps. Has you Translucent been lapped?
You have a 1k, 5k and an 8K? Which brand of 8k do you have?
Have all the stones been lapped and the edges beveled or rounded? What are you using to lap your stones?
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- #27
Thanks psfred,
I'm about to order a dead flat glass and use some wd paper to lap with to see if my dmt lapping plate is off any, right now that's the budget option.
Here's what I've been using to lap with, it's well worn and I've been lapping every stone I use in the same way prior to use each time as I'm going through this, I'm thinking if one is off maybe all should be off also?
It's not the dia flat.
I'm about to order a dead flat glass and use some wd paper to lap with to see if my dmt lapping plate is off any, right now that's the budget option.
Here's what I've been using to lap with, it's well worn and I've been lapping every stone I use in the same way prior to use each time as I'm going through this, I'm thinking if one is off maybe all should be off also?
It's not the dia flat.
DMT D8C Dia-Sharp Diamond Knife Sharpener, Coarse Diamond Sharpening Stone, 8-Inch
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- #28
Brad,
Each pic is at the same spot at the same angle so I can compare them against each other, I find the second 'a' in Barbosa and drop straight down to the bevel for the pic. On the ones I zoom out on I've been noting that the next pic is a refocused one.
I've tried to use the lighting on the razor as a way to be sure I'm getting the same angle each time.
Each pic is at the same spot at the same angle so I can compare them against each other, I find the second 'a' in Barbosa and drop straight down to the bevel for the pic. On the ones I zoom out on I've been noting that the next pic is a refocused one.
I've tried to use the lighting on the razor as a way to be sure I'm getting the same angle each time.
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- #30
Brad,
I can see where my note of the laps is a wrong way to say it and is probably very confusing.
Here's the progression of the laps on the Black Shadow after using the 5K;
I only lapped the BS at the start, not in between these slurries.
1. BS with an 8k slurry for 20 laps, #22 pic.
2. then I wanted to see if using the BS cleaning stone slurry would see a difference, I'm not sure why I went 50 laps, I remember adding water at each 10 laps though. I didn't post that pic.
3. Then I did 25 laps on the BS with water only, no slurry at all. That 50 + 25 was the 75 laps together, #22 second pic.
4. Then I did 15 laps with the 8K slurry again, didn't post that pic, it looked like the first 8K slurry pic.
then another 15 laps, watering down the same 8K slurry for the pic of '8k slurry 30 laps' pic.
All the stones were lapped on that Dmt I posted a pic of. A while back I went through a sandpaper progression from 400 to 5K, but since then I've been using the 325 Dmt to lap for each use.
The Ark has only been lapped with the Dmt plate.
Yes, I've made sure the edges are chamfered.
I was using the Roszutec to be in the 8K area in between the 5K and BS.
What is the dark area indicating. What made it lighten up going back to the 8K slurry on the BS.
Is it due to lapping with the dmt and the 8K slurry is just creating a thicker layer that is smoothing it back out?
I can see where my note of the laps is a wrong way to say it and is probably very confusing.
Here's the progression of the laps on the Black Shadow after using the 5K;
I only lapped the BS at the start, not in between these slurries.
1. BS with an 8k slurry for 20 laps, #22 pic.
2. then I wanted to see if using the BS cleaning stone slurry would see a difference, I'm not sure why I went 50 laps, I remember adding water at each 10 laps though. I didn't post that pic.
3. Then I did 25 laps on the BS with water only, no slurry at all. That 50 + 25 was the 75 laps together, #22 second pic.
4. Then I did 15 laps with the 8K slurry again, didn't post that pic, it looked like the first 8K slurry pic.
then another 15 laps, watering down the same 8K slurry for the pic of '8k slurry 30 laps' pic.
All the stones were lapped on that Dmt I posted a pic of. A while back I went through a sandpaper progression from 400 to 5K, but since then I've been using the 325 Dmt to lap for each use.
The Ark has only been lapped with the Dmt plate.
Yes, I've made sure the edges are chamfered.
I was using the Roszutec to be in the 8K area in between the 5K and BS.
What is the dark area indicating. What made it lighten up going back to the 8K slurry on the BS.
Is it due to lapping with the dmt and the 8K slurry is just creating a thicker layer that is smoothing it back out?
Rick,
1- Your Cerax 5k stone isn't finer than your Naniwa SS3K stone.
2- How fine is the Rozsutec? These stones are generally under 8k stones.
3- I don't think Black Shadow can move the edge forward in this progression (3kss-5kCerax-Rozsutec).
4- What is the 8K synthetic stone you just included in the progression? If you have included any fake Chinese made synthetics of terrible quality, you may not get better results than the SS3K you have.
5- There are some parts in your photos that I don't understand. There are problems at the edges in the photo where you went 75 laps with the black shadow. If you passed only 10 laps of Translucent Arkansas in the picture you shared afterwards, that image should not be like that. I agree with Brad. We don't seem to be looking at the same sections.
If I were you, I'd include a Naniwa SS8K in that progression. I would progress to Cerax 1k- SS3K-SS8K and Translucent Arkansas. If Naniwa SS 10 or 12K was also available, it would be an even better progress. But you can also continue at 8K. You need to do some overtime with Translucent Arkansas. You must have a perfect edge before moving to Arkansas.
1- Your Cerax 5k stone isn't finer than your Naniwa SS3K stone.
2- How fine is the Rozsutec? These stones are generally under 8k stones.
3- I don't think Black Shadow can move the edge forward in this progression (3kss-5kCerax-Rozsutec).
4- What is the 8K synthetic stone you just included in the progression? If you have included any fake Chinese made synthetics of terrible quality, you may not get better results than the SS3K you have.
5- There are some parts in your photos that I don't understand. There are problems at the edges in the photo where you went 75 laps with the black shadow. If you passed only 10 laps of Translucent Arkansas in the picture you shared afterwards, that image should not be like that. I agree with Brad. We don't seem to be looking at the same sections.
If I were you, I'd include a Naniwa SS8K in that progression. I would progress to Cerax 1k- SS3K-SS8K and Translucent Arkansas. If Naniwa SS 10 or 12K was also available, it would be an even better progress. But you can also continue at 8K. You need to do some overtime with Translucent Arkansas. You must have a perfect edge before moving to Arkansas.
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- #32
marv,
What you say about the naniwa 3K is why I was surprised at the amount of stria it created compared to the cerex 5K. Am I using it incorrectly as far as slurry, water etc..?
Some say the Roszutec can be close to the 6 - 8K range.
I must have mis written about adding an 8K synthetic, the only stones I have (not necessarily using)
King 1K/6K combo
Cerex 1K and 5K
Naniwa 3K
Belgium blue
Roszutec
Black shadow
Arkansas translucent
I also have a shapton 16K but found out it does chip the edge as others say it will.
What you say about the naniwa 3K is why I was surprised at the amount of stria it created compared to the cerex 5K. Am I using it incorrectly as far as slurry, water etc..?
Some say the Roszutec can be close to the 6 - 8K range.
I must have mis written about adding an 8K synthetic, the only stones I have (not necessarily using)
King 1K/6K combo
Cerex 1K and 5K
Naniwa 3K
Belgium blue
Roszutec
Black shadow
Arkansas translucent
I also have a shapton 16K but found out it does chip the edge as others say it will.
FWIW, I have a Black Shadow and I don't use the slurry stone; it just takes my edges backwards. I go from an 8k Naniwa to the Black Shadow with water and a touch of lather as a finisher and it does a great job, providing that the groundwork has all been done.
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- #34
I'm seeing what looks to be damage in the #22 post pic of the BS no slurry.
I'm not sure how it appears so real but I don't see it in any of the other pics (I'll do another actual visual in the morning)
Each pic is of the same area with the same angle of light (if it's off it's only slightly as far as the angle goes)
I'm also still not sure why the BS no slurry creates that dark area but it goes away with the 8K slurry and then also with the Ark and oil.
I'm sure it's me, just gotta figure out the reason. Is it the thicker slurry and oil? Perhaps that's why it starts showing up again as I dilute the 8K slurry.
From the Ark pic, should it be looking more polished than that, it can be difficult to just feel how long to go.
I'm not sure how it appears so real but I don't see it in any of the other pics (I'll do another actual visual in the morning)
Each pic is of the same area with the same angle of light (if it's off it's only slightly as far as the angle goes)
I'm also still not sure why the BS no slurry creates that dark area but it goes away with the 8K slurry and then also with the Ark and oil.
I'm sure it's me, just gotta figure out the reason. Is it the thicker slurry and oil? Perhaps that's why it starts showing up again as I dilute the 8K slurry.
From the Ark pic, should it be looking more polished than that, it can be difficult to just feel how long to go.
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- #35
Silver,
Do you use the stone that came with it in any way before or during honing.
Do you use the stone that came with it in any way before or during honing.
Nope. I tired when I first got it, with different permutations, but it never really added anything to the edges, so I just stopped. I really enjoy BS edges to shave off, but for me it is purely a finisher; all the actual work has to be done before you get there.
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- #37
JPO,
The original edge would shave skin off, I've never shaved with one like that before, thought I was going to need a transfusion the first time I used it
Then each attempt to make it better failed,
the only one that was a half decent shave was my bevel angle calculation mistake and using 3 layers of tape (I still laugh at how I didn't question that one more), it came out to an 18 deg bevel, it tugged a little but I managed to get throught the shave fairly decent.
After I set the bevel on the Cerex 1K I do the same pressure method for each stone even the 5K, a few with slight pressure laps then the rest of the strokes are very light.
I'll be doing another shave test tomorrow.
The original edge would shave skin off, I've never shaved with one like that before, thought I was going to need a transfusion the first time I used it
Then each attempt to make it better failed,
the only one that was a half decent shave was my bevel angle calculation mistake and using 3 layers of tape (I still laugh at how I didn't question that one more), it came out to an 18 deg bevel, it tugged a little but I managed to get throught the shave fairly decent.
After I set the bevel on the Cerex 1K I do the same pressure method for each stone even the 5K, a few with slight pressure laps then the rest of the strokes are very light.
I'll be doing another shave test tomorrow.
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- #38
Sorry psfred,
I didn't catch you explaining the reason for the dark area showing up.
I'm pretty sure none of the stones are dished out since I use the Dmt each time so what might be another cause, I use the burr method to set the bevel and I've probably done it about 3 times now?
I didn't catch you explaining the reason for the dark area showing up.
I'm pretty sure none of the stones are dished out since I use the Dmt each time so what might be another cause, I use the burr method to set the bevel and I've probably done it about 3 times now?
The dark area is in my opinion caused by the BS polishing the steel. It's a really slow stone when used with just water. It is best used as a pure finisher in my opinion.
You are also probably flexing the grind at some stage, because the darkening is only showing up at the front part of the bevel.
You are throwing in allot of variables when you include slurry, especially synthetic slurry.
One simple alternative progression can be;
Cerax 5K to Shapton 16k. Use just a small amount of BS slurry on the BS. This will smooth out the edge a little, but it might also take it back a step. Then you can do your finish on the Translucent Arkansas. You could also just see how it shaves after the BS.
If you had a 8k stone it might make the job much easier, but you should get by without it if you optimize your 5k work.
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- #40
Doing more 'staring' at all the pics I have that I didn't post (too redundant) I'm thinking now the dark area along the bevel may be a blade issue.
I can see that the edge below the dark area is getting polished as it is above the dark area.
I'm thinking the dark is a 'valley' along the edge that the stones are not reaching down into.
Of course I could be totally incorrect,
I can see how the 8K slurry could reach in there and doing some polishing but I'm not sure how the oil on the Ark does it too.
I'll take a look on the other side tomorrow and see if that valley might be a 'hill'. Wish I would've taken pics of both sides during all this.
Thanks for all the input, it's greatly appreciated and definitely keep it coming.
It's amazing how such a simple designed item can be not so simple.
I can see that the edge below the dark area is getting polished as it is above the dark area.
I'm thinking the dark is a 'valley' along the edge that the stones are not reaching down into.
Of course I could be totally incorrect,
I can see how the 8K slurry could reach in there and doing some polishing but I'm not sure how the oil on the Ark does it too.
I'll take a look on the other side tomorrow and see if that valley might be a 'hill'. Wish I would've taken pics of both sides during all this.
Thanks for all the input, it's greatly appreciated and definitely keep it coming.
It's amazing how such a simple designed item can be not so simple.
