What Timeless Razor Is Most Aggressive/Efficient? | How do you know?

[Dovo1695]

Aggressive to me means one or more of several things.

• Rough as opposed to smooth feeling on the skin
• Prone to biting
• Not comfortable
• Irritating to the skin

I am having a real hard time understanding Timeless claiming that the slim plate is their most aggressive plate.

After going to their web site their specifications show the following:
Reg. SS/Ti- Gap: .95mm
Exp: .05mm
Bronze: Gap: .78mm
Exp: .15mm
Slim: Gap: .50mm
Exp: .05mm

I think most would agree that #1 Exposure & #2 Gap are the most important factors for aggression. When I look at the above specifications I would expect the slim to be the least aggressive of the three.

@Cannon Cocker, I think this a misconception about the effect/purpose of gap. Gap has very poor correlation with aggressiveness (as defined by @Chan Eil Whiskers above). Consider the Muhle R41 with an gap of 0.30mm and the Muhle 3one6 with a gap of 1.35mm. If gap caused aggressiveness, the Muhle R41 would be a gentle pussycat of a razor compared to the 3one6. This is not the case. Why? I think it's because the purpose/effect of gap is to increase the efficiency of razor, while decreasing aggressiveness, given the same nominal blade exposure.

If I had to write an algorithm that predicted razor aggressiveness, these are the parameters I'd use and the weight I would give them:

1. Blade Exposure: 40%
2. Guard + Cap Muzzle Volume*: 30%
3. Guard Span: 20%
4. Gap: 10%

That's just my best guess though. I don't think anybody really has their head wrapped all the way around this stuff. I know I don't. With high resolution pics of the "target area" (like the pic below) of the Timeless .78 and the Timeless Slim, I think the above parameters and weights would explain why the Slim is more aggressive than the .78. Maybe not. In the very least I think they would explain it better than just gap and exposure alone.

*The guard and cap "muzzle volume" is the volume of the guard and cap defined by the imaginary shave plane (muzzle plane) caused by increasing exposure by 0.1mm. Basically it describes how well the razor resists pressure and prevents the razor from biting.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Nick's Aggressiveness Picture​

@Cannon Cocker, I think this a misconception about the effect/purpose of gap. Gap has very poor correlation with aggressiveness...

If I had to write an algorithm that predicted razor aggressiveness, these are the parameters I'd use and the weight I would give them:

1. Blade Exposure: 40%
2. Guard + Cap Muzzle Volume*: 30%
3. Guard Span: 20%
4. Gap: 10%

That's just my best guess though. I don't think anybody really has their head wrapped all the way around this stuff. I know I don't. With high resolution pics of the "target area" (like the pic below) of the Timeless .78 and the Timeless Slim, I think the above parameters and weights would explain why the Slim is more aggressive than the .78. Maybe not. In the very least I think they would explain it better than just gap and exposure alone.

*The guard and cap "muzzle volume" is the volume of the guard and cap defined by the imaginary shave plane (muzzle plane) caused by increasing exposure by 0.1mm. Basically it describes how well the razor resists pressure and prevents the razor from biting.

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I've got to spend about a week studying your post. Particularly the new concept.

Seriously!

I think you're onto some great stuff. Thanks so much for sharing it with me.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Dovo1695]

View attachment 1281749

Nick's Aggressiveness Picture

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I've got to spend about a week studying your post. Particularly the new concept.

Seriously!

I think you're onto some great stuff. Thanks so much for sharing it with me.

Happy shaves,

Jim

It's a work in progress and I'll be the first to say it could be wrong. If you're going to invest any time thinking about it, think about adding a 3rd dimension "depth" to the these pictures we discussed in another thread that partly explain why the design of an R41 is more aggressive than a OC gamechanger, which is more aggressive than a closed comb game changer. The larger the surface area/volume, the more pressure it takes to push the razor into the skin. Pushing the razor into the skin changes the effective exposure of the razor. The nominal exposure measurement listed by the manufacturer is only relevant on a granite surface. Everything changes when we're talking about something soft like skin, and pressure is involved.

I didn't mean to derail your thread though, I just thought it might be relevant to explaining why the Slim might be the most aggressive Timeless, despite the fact that nominal exposure and gap alone don't explain that. Now back to our regularly scheduled program: comparing Timeless razors by folks who've actually used them...

 

[Cannon Cocker]

Dovo,
I‘m with Jim on taking time to study your post. I am really enjoying reading and re-reading your thoughts.

Getting back to the meaning of aggression. By a dictionary definition I would tend to agree with Jim, but when used in the shaving world I believe efficiency is also accepted by many to be part of the definition. If it weren’t companies like Timeless wouldn’t describe one of their razors as their most aggressive.

If I understand your muzzle volume and guard span in simple terms, you are saying that a smaller gap allows for the razor to press deeper into the skin and that exposes more of the blade against the skin. As you said the R41 is a very aggressive razor because it has very little gap. And you said the 3one6 has a much larger gap which increases efficiency and reduces aggression. But I think most would agree that the R41 is also very efficient beyond the efficiency of the 3one6. Maybe the blade exposure on the R41 is much greater and that accounts for it. Got to keep thinking cause this is confusing. Help!

 

[jeffmudrick]

Dovo,
I‘m with Jim on taking time to study your post. I am really enjoying reading and re-reading your thoughts.

Getting back to the meaning of aggression. By a dictionary definition I would tend to agree with Jim, but when used in the shaving world I believe efficiency is also accepted by many to be part of the definition. If it weren’t companies like Timeless wouldn’t describe one of their razors as their most aggressive.

Or maybe Timeless actually means aggressive when they say aggressive. My guess. Look, many people in the shaving world get a lot of things wrong. I couldn't count the number of times I've heard people say about cap span "Oh I call that exposure".

Aggressive describes an attitude/disposition, efficiency measures a result.



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[Cannon Cocker]

Or maybe Timeless actually means aggressive when they say aggressive. My guess. Look, many people in the shaving world get a lot of things wrong. I couldn't count the number of times I've heard people say about cap span "Oh I call that exposure".

Aggressive describes an attitude/disposition, efficiency measures a result.



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Ok, back to the dictionary.

 

[jeffmudrick]

Ok, back to the dictionary.

I'll help.

Aggressive: ready or likely to attack or confront; characterized by or resulting from aggression. Early 19th century: from Latin aggress- ‘attacked’ (from the verb aggredi ) + -ive; compare with French agressif, -ive .

Does that sound like the same as efficient? I really don't think so, really doesn't matter to me how many get it wrong, it's still wrong, just as blade reveal isn't exposure.






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[muzichead]

You can either agree or disagree but 9/10 I will probably accept what the Mfg says about his product because he was the one that designed, tested, and released the product to the public!! If he says its the most aggressive, without me actually using the product, I will take his word for it as he is the expert here and I'm not...

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Dovo,
I‘m with Jim on taking time to study your post. I am really enjoying reading and re-reading your thoughts.

Getting back to the meaning of aggression. By a dictionary definition I would tend to agree with Jim, but when used in the shaving world I believe efficiency is also accepted by many to be part of the definition. If it weren’t companies like Timeless wouldn’t describe one of their razors as their most aggressive.

People who use the word aggressive when they should be using the term efficient do us all a disservice and themselves.

That's my opinion, and I'm not in charge of anyone (and sometimes not even myself), but I'm sticking with it.

When Timeless uses the term aggressive it mean the same as when others use it: Nothing (unless it is defined in context).

If I understand your muzzle volume and guard span in simple terms, you are saying that a smaller gap allows for the razor to press deeper into the skin and that exposes more of the blade against the skin. As you said the R41 is a very aggressive razor because it has very little gap. And you said the 3one6 has a much larger gap which increases efficiency and reduces aggression. But I think most would agree that the R41 is also very efficient beyond the efficiency of the 3one6. Maybe the blade exposure on the R41 is much greater and that accounts for it. Got to keep thinking cause this is confusing. Help!

The problem here is razors such as the Gillette Old Type and the modern Fatips. Both have a tiny gap yet both are efficient, smooth shaving, not aggressive (don't bite much). At least that's how I see it, but I understand nothing much at all about razor design and engineering.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[jeffmudrick]

People who use the word aggressive when they should be using the term efficient do us all a disservice and themselves.

That's my opinion, and I'm not in charge of anyone (and sometimes not even myself), but I'm sticking with it.

When Timeless uses the term aggressive it mean the same as when others use it: Nothing (unless it is defined in context).





The problem here is razors such as the Gillette Old Type and the modern Fatips. Both have a tiny gap yet both are efficient, smooth shaving, not aggressive (don't bite much). At least that's how I see it, but I understand nothing much at all about razor design and engineering.

Happy shaves,

Jim

Spot on. Conversely there are bitey razors which are less efficient than some much less aggressive. In my world an aggressive razor that chatters or tugs ATG on my head is not an efficiency star whether measured in strokes or time.

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[jeffmudrick]

You can either agree or disagree but 9/10 I will probably accept what the Mfg says about his product because he was the one that designed, tested, and released the product to the public!! If he says its the most aggressive, without me actually using the product, I will take his word for it as he is the expert here and I'm not...

Muhle calls the R41 an open comb . So much for that.

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[Dovo1695]

Wow. I just looked at a picture of Ti Slim for the first time. That thing is the razor incarnation of Grace Jones; beautiful and a little frightening.

I'm now 99% sure that I'm right about why the Slim is the most aggressive razor in the Timeless stable. They tell us why right in the description on the website. The whole ad copy for it is seven sentences long, and they use the word "aggressive" twice and they tell us why twice. It's a razor that requires a very light touch. It takes basically zero pressure to change the nominal blade exposure from 0.05mm to 0.15mm. It's a wolf in sheep's clothing. It will sneak up an bite you unless you know what you're doing.

I don't have a very good profile pic, but I'll try and take some measurements to calculate the "guard muzzle area" and "cap muzzle area". I'd love to get one of those under a microscope.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Wow. I just looked at a picture of Ti Slim for the first time. That thing is the razor incarnation of Grace Jones; beautiful and a little frightening.

I'm now 99% sure that I'm right about why the Slim is the most aggressive razor in the Timeless stable. They tell us why right in the description on the website. The whole ad copy for it is seven sentences long, and they use the word "aggressive" twice and they tell us why twice. It's a razor that requires a very light touch. It takes basically zero pressure to change the nominal blade exposure from 0.05mm to 0.15mm. It's a wolf in sheep's clothing. It will sneak up an bite you unless you know what you're doing.

I don't have a very good profile pic, but I'll try and take some measurements to calculate the "guard muzzle area" and "cap muzzle area". I'd love to get one of those under a microscope.

It would also be interesting to hear your comments on the Timeless Bronze 78.

I've used the SS Slim OC for eight shaves and have the Ti Slim SB in transit. I expect to find the Slim SB less "aggressive" than the Bronze 78. For one thing the 78 is OC. For another, I didn't find the Slim OC all that aggressive once I had a few shaves under my belt.

Obviously I could be totally wrong as I'm only speculating.

In my experience with the two razors both are unlikely to be big time biters.

Still, I'd like to hear your comments on the two razors side by side.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Dovo1695]

It would also be interesting to hear your comments on the Timeless Bronze 78.


View attachment 1282033


I've used the SS Slim OC for eight shaves and have the Ti Slim SB in transit. I expect to find the Slim SB less "aggressive" than the Bronze 78. For one thing the 78 is OC. For another, I didn't find the Slim OC all that aggressive once I had a few shaves under my belt.

Obviously I could be totally wrong as I'm only speculating.

In my experience with the two razors both are unlikely to be big time biters.

Still, I'd like to hear your comments on the two razors side by side.

Happy shaves,

Jim

Do you have a close-up profile pic of the head of the razor? It doesn't have to be a close-up as this one, but a fairly close-up profile pic of the razor that shows the blade & gap reasonably well would let me do some back of the envelope calculations.

 

[Dovo1695]

Do you have a close-up profile pic of the head of the razor? It doesn't have to be a close-up as this one, but a fairly close-up profile pic of the razor that shows the blade & gap reasonably well would let me do some back of the envelope calculations.

Here is a good example comparing two razors that you have tried and enjoyed. Look at the guard area, and imagine the guard muzzle plane (shift the shave plane 0.10mm to the left). Look how much metal there is resisting pressure in the Karve SB-D guard vs the Timeless Slim guard. No microscope necessary for this one...

One thing I'd like to point out is that cap riders will be baffled by the Timeless being called "aggressive"; it has a nice fat cap muzzle area that follows the line of the shave plane. Conversely, cap riders will find the Karve quite a bit more aggressive because it has very little meat in the cap muzzle area. The two razors are mirror images of one another (fat cap/skinny guard vs fat guard/skinny cap.

I suspect people that play with a lot of razors tend to adjust their shaving angle to whatever causes the least aggression without even knowing it.

 

[3oclockShadow]

Here is a good example comparing two razors that you have tried and enjoyed. Look at the guard area, and imagine the guard muzzle plane (shift the shave plane 0.10mm to the left). Look how much metal there is resisting pressure in the Karve SB-D guard vs the Timeless Slim guard. No microscope necessary for this one...

One thing I'd like to point out is that cap riders will be baffled by the Timeless being called "aggressive"; it has a nice fat cap muzzle area that follows the line of the shave plane. Conversely, cap riders will find the Karve quite a bit more aggressive because it has very little meat in the cap muzzle area. The two razors are mirror images of one another (fat cap/skinny guard vs fat guard/skinny cap.

I suspect people that play with a lot of razors tend to adjust their shaving angle to whatever causes the least aggression without even knowing it.

Interesting comparison. Thanks for posting.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Here is a good example comparing two razors that you have tried and enjoyed. Look at the guard area, and imagine the guard muzzle plane (shift the shave plane 0.10mm to the left). Look how much metal there is resisting pressure in the Karve SB-D guard vs the Timeless Slim guard. No microscope necessary for this one...

One thing I'd like to point out is that cap riders will be baffled by the Timeless being called "aggressive"; it has a nice fat cap muzzle area that follows the line of the shave plane. Conversely, cap riders will find the Karve quite a bit more aggressive because it has very little meat in the cap muzzle area. The two razors are mirror images of one another (fat cap/skinny guard vs fat guard/skinny cap.

I suspect people that play with a lot of razors tend to adjust their shaving angle to whatever causes the least aggression without even knowing it.

To me, the Timeless Ti 95 OC feels "mild" (not inefficient, but smooth, not prone to biting, not rough).

I'm not sure why?

Maybe I just adjusted to it?

However, I know there are razors I've not "adjusted" to, razors I consider aggressive. Blackland Blackbird, iKon Tech, Wunderbar, etc.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Dovo1695]

Getting back to the meaning of aggression. By a dictionary definition I would tend to agree with Jim, but when used in the shaving world I believe efficiency is also accepted by many to be part of the definition. If it weren’t companies like Timeless wouldn’t describe one of their razors as their most aggressive.

Maybe. If you read the ad copy carefully though, Timeless is saying it's the most prone to biting. The instructions are "Just don't press" which I think means "use zero pressure or it will bite you". He goes on to say "with the right touch" meaning "use zero pressure or it will bite you". This is the first time I've seen a one paragraph description of a razor by the razor's own designer warn you that a razor is extremely sensitive to pressure. That's my interpretation, but interpretation is always subjective; only the author could tell us for sure.

If I understand your muzzle volume and guard span in simple terms, you are saying that a smaller gap allows for the razor to press deeper into the skin and that exposes more of the blade against the skin.

That's not what I was trying to say, but I did a pretty lousy job of explaining it. The key points are these:

1. The first rule of DE shaving is "use less pressure", because blade exposure changes as a function of pressure
2. Pressure = force / surface area
3. The less surface area in contact with the skin, the higher the pressure is given the same force
4. Some razors have larger surface area in contact with the skin than others (e.g. open comb vs straight bar)
5. Extending the 2d concept of surface to the profile of the razor gives you muzzle area
6. Combining 2d surface area and 2d muzzle area yields the 3d concept of muzzle volume

I don't know if that's more clear or even more muddled, but at least it's succinct...

But I think most would agree that the R41 is also very efficient beyond the efficiency of the 3one6. Maybe the blade exposure on the R41 is much greater and that accounts for it. Got to keep thinking cause this is confusing. Help!

I'm terrible at explaining things. There are multiple factors that go into razor "aggressiveness". I'm defining aggressiveness as "propensity to bite or cause irritation". This is completely distinct from efficiency which is a concept we'll ignore altogether. Exposure is the best predictor of aggression, but it's not a constant. It's only a constant if you are shaving granite or glass. Exposure changes when you push the guard into something soft and yielding like skin. Look carefully at the 2 pictures below and note the apex of the blades edge. The blade exposure changes dramatically over the 2 pictures.

The change in exposure when a guard is pushed into something soft is caused by pressure. How much a razor resists sinking into your skin given a pressure is a function of the surface area of the guard and cap area. When exposure changes quickly, that's when a razor "bites" and causes cuts or weepers, or irritation. Razors that change exposure with very small changes in pressure are apt to bite and cause irritation (aka "aggressive").

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Maybe. If you read the ad copy carefully though, Timeless is saying it's the most prone to biting. The instructions are "Just don't press" which I think means "use zero pressure or it will bite you". He goes on to say "with the right touch" meaning "use zero pressure or it will bite you". This is the first time I've seen a one paragraph description of a razor by the razor's own designer warn you that a razor is extremely sensitive to pressure. That's my interpretation, but interpretation is always subjective; only the author could tell us for sure.

That's not what I was trying to say, but I did a pretty lousy job of explaining it. The key points are these:

1. The first rule of DE shaving is "use less pressure", because blade exposure changes as a function of pressure
2. Pressure is force over surface area
3. The less surface area in contact with the skin, the higher the pressure is given the same force
4. Some razors have larger surface area in contact with the skin than others (e.g. open comb vs straight bar)
5. Extending the 2d concept of surface to the profile of the razor gives you muzzle area
6. Combining 2d surface area and 2d muzzle area yields the 3d concept of muzzle volume

I don't know if that's more clear or even more muddled, but at least it's succinct...

Studying this might have to wait for the weekend.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Cannon Cocker]

Dovo,
In general I believe I understand what you are saying with regard to pressure= force/surface area.

Getting back to Timeless's warning against pressure. To quote Timeless " This AGRESSIVE 0.5mm blade gap makes for a quick smooth shave. Just don't press. This is our most aggressive razor yet but with the right touch it provides a smooth efficient shave." My take on this is all about risk/reward all under the heading of their most aggressive razor yet. The risk with incorrect touch (technique) leads to blood, irritation etc. With the right touch the aggressive razor provides a smooth efficient shave. I think this implies that their most aggressive razor is capable of giving the most efficient and smooth shave of all of their razors. Why else would someone risk buying their most aggressive razor without the reward of their most efficient and smooth razor.