What Is Going To Happen To Cuba ?

[moses]

Personally, I tend to take pretty seriously the view of the Cuban people that I know on this topic, and I find that their feelings for Castro tend to be anything but kind. I have a very close friend of Cuban descent, who recently had the extraordinary good forture to be able to visit and see some of her family that is still there. Her reports are not quite so sunny as perhaps John's picture (not to discount what he says, which is doubtless well informed and largely true). And her father and grandparents who immigrated from Cuba look one Castro anything but favorably.

Note, though, that I think the embargo is doing far more harm than good, and has been doing so for years.

 

[NMMB]

Wow,

It looks like I've stirred up a bit of a hornets nest here... certainly not my intention... though, I guess that it should come as no surprise that Cuba is demonized far more in the US than it is in Canada and other nations that do not participate in the embargo.

 

[mark the shoeshine boy]

as a humorous note, does this mean when the borders open up, I can get old car parts from there...because everytime i see anyone driving it is always a newer looking 57 chevy or oldsmobile.....but never a honda...lol

mark tssb

this is not a racist remark either....

 

[Andre]

Before their revolution Cuba was overrun with criminals, corrupt officials and exploitative (U.S. Oil) businesses. It was ready for a popular revolution...., those who fled in the early years to Miami etc were those in the main who prospered under the old regime.

The Cuban Revolution was HARDLY a popular one. It was a handful of intellectuals who managed to swindle their way into credibility with just enough people to foolishly strongarm their movement into power. EXACTLY like every other totalitarian revolution. Ideas like that ONLY ever gain and hold power by force.

[/QUOTE]In 1959 the average life expectancy was 60.
Since then Cuba has built one of the best (& free at delivery) health systems in the world. Life expectancy has increased by 18 years to equal to the U.S. and its infant mortality rate is actually better than the States.[/QUOTE]

I guess if you think that thousands of bodies, 30-some-odd years of totalitarian oppression, and the inability to make basic choices about how you want to live your life and raise your children is "free." NOTHING in life is free and there is NO SUCH THING AS FREE HEALTH CARE. In America we pay for our healthcare with money. In Cuba they pay with death and misery. I'm sure it comes as some consolation to the Cuban widow, whose husband and father were killed for "counter-revolutionary thinking" to know that she can get a "free" chickenpox shot. (and if you seriously think that Canadian Health Care is "free" then I've got some free sunshine I can sell you for $10 shipping and handling!)

One of the factors that makes life so hard in Cuba is the blockade - it has stopped machine parts and chemicals from reaching the country - agriculture has had to learn to adapt and businesses have gone to the wall.

Apart from hardship to the Cuban people the blockade has achieved little or nothing politically. It comes as no surprise to me that a small percentage of Cubans have risked their life to escape economic hardship - a lot of which is a direct consequence of the blockade.

Oh, is Big, Bad America making life difficult for Communists again? How many millions does the world's Left think is a fair price in their little experiment in bad governmental principles? We're at about 100 Million deaths at the moment (worldwide, due to Communism since the Bolsheviks siezed power)? So those that flee Cuba are only trying to escape American economic brutality? Funny how the vast majority of them come here then. Maybe they are just too stupid to figure it out and go to Canada instead (no doubt made that way in American Schools).

When Castro goes he will leave knowing that Cuba is in much better position than it was in 1959...., and its population is still better off, despite the blockade, than many of those countries in the region that had corrupt 'nasty' regimes propped up by the U.S. in the 60's, 70's & 80's.

History will be kind to Castro ...., when will the U.S. release its prisoners (held without trial) in Cuba?

Again, it never ceases to amaze me that people who can scream indignantly about a handful of uncomfortable inmates under U.S. control, never seem able to raise the same level of concern for people who will willingly kill millions just because they have a different philosophy of government. I guess 100 million killed and millions more affected in lesser ways, pales in comparison to our arrogant jailing of a relative handful people who want to kill us.

After nearly 100 years of leftist apologetics for mass murder, this shouldn't surprise me, I guess. But I keep hoping that when it comes around again that THIS time it will be different.

Just like in Eastern Europe, we need to open Cuba, rather than keep it cut off. Communism there would end next week if we did that (despite all of the Cuban's apparant love for Castro). It works because the one thing people want more than anythng else is choice, something they NEVER get under Communism or Socialism. I'm sure since Castro has made them so much smarter than us, they'll figure that out right away.

Andre

 

[TheChefs]

I just find it very ironic the attitude of people from USA towards Cuba and China. with China having far worse human right record, with the most recent example being Falun Gong. Yet I don't see any calls for embargos etc. I guess economic and military power makes a difference. Since when usa talks about human rights to china it's usually just giving lip service.

 

[Andre]

No, it's not lip service. It's just that whenever someone actually suggests that we treat Communists harshly, and tries to institute some sort of policy, others start whining about how it will affect their children and harping about insensitive Conservatives that don't care about people, don't undertand all the GOOD that comes out of totalitarian regimes, etc.

Meanwhile, the killing goes on.

 

[NMMB]

I just find it very ironic the attitude of people from USA towards Cuba and China. with China having far worse human right record, with the most recent example being Falun Gong. Yet I don't see any calls for embargos etc. I guess economic and military power makes a difference. Since when usa talks about human rights to china it's usually just giving lip service.

There is a world of difference between a tiny island nation that can do essentially nothing to defend itself and a very powerful (in both economic and military might) nation that could essentially cripple the US or any other nation that were to go up against it... also, there are bad communists and good communists; the major difference appears to be that good communists are ones that you depend upon to maintain your economy.

Andre, you are right about health care in both Canada and Cuba in that it is not free... but in both countries it is universal and in many ways superior to the US healthcare system (though not in all ways)

... We're at about 100 Million deaths at the moment (worldwide, due to Communism since the Bolsheviks siezed power)...

What if we drop China from the list (since they are "good communists" and it is easy to look away when they violate human rights)? Any idea how many people have died at the hands (or bombs) of those who participate in the embargo against Cuba during the same time frame? Now, how many of your supposed 100M were killed by the Castro regime? How many American citizens were executed in the last 47 years (I would expect that there have been more American citizens executed during the last 47 years than people killed by Castro's regime - anybody have any numbers?)?

 

[inkling]

How many American citizens were executed in the last 47 years (I would expect that there have been more American citizens executed during the last 47 years than people killed by Castro's regime - anybody have any numbers?)?

After doing a quick Google search, I found that since the reinstatement of the death penalty in 1976 there have been 1,024 executions in the United States. Capital punishment was suspended from 1973 to 1976. Extrapolating this number back to 1957, I estimate a total of 1,536 executions in the U.S. since Castro actively began his successful revolution.

Please note that these were all convicted murderers, etc. They were executed for capital crimes, not the anti-revolutionary "crimes" of being a journalist, homosexual or political opponent.

Now stats from Castro's Cuba via the Miami Herald:

At 31,173, the tally of documented cases keeps growing, and includes:

• 5,728 killed by Castro firing squads

• 1,207 extrajudicial killings after Castro took power

• 1,216 deaths in prison.

(snip)

Meanwhile, Lago has also come up with a mathematical formula to estimate the number of rafters who perished at sea -- a number he estimates at 77,879.

Please note that Cuba's population is approximately 3.7% of that in the U.S. With the population adjustment for a per capita equivalent, the U.S. capital punishment since 1957 is only 58 deaths.

A few quotes from Che Guevara:

"We will make our hearts cruel, hard, and immovable ... we will not quiver at the sight of a sea of enemy blood. Without mercy, without sparing, we will kill our enemies in scores of thousands; let them drown themselves in their own blood! Let there be floods of the blood of the bourgeois – more blood, as much as possible."

"Hatred is an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective and cold-blooded killing machine."

"To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary. These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail. This is a revolution! And a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate. We must create the pedagogy of the paredon (The Wall)!"

One of the untried victims that Che shot against the paredon was a 14-year-old. Yet people deeply opposed to the capital punishment of convicted murders will proudly wear Che T-shirts. A world gone mad.

This is not "demonization" but a recitation of fact. To claim that these innocents deserved to die so that the Cubans who weren't killed could have spotty but egalitarian health care or improved literacy does a painful disservice to the victims' memory. Mussolini famously made the "trains run on time," but that didn't excuse his murderous crimes.

BTW, I know this discussion has gotten quite heated for our rather genteel shaving forum. However, I assure all taking part that although my comments have been passionate, in no way are they intended to attack any members personally. I grew up in a family of strident liberals and strident conservatives, which made each dinnertime an exercise in brutal argumentation. We carry on our arguments to this day, but we know we're all family. (I promise not to start signing Kumbayah)

 

[NMMB]

inkling, I'll admit that I'm a little surprised by the numbers that you've provided - but I will take your word on it since I am honestly too lazy to look them up right now (I've got bigger things to worry about for the next few weeks)... I stand by my thoughts/feelings on Cuba and Castro (i.e., many of the problems of the nation are caused by external forces, Castro is not without blame but has done many beneficial things for his country, etc), but for the sake of my sanity I'll leave this discussion to people who have more time to devote to elloquent and educated discussions. I will, however, continue to read the discussions...

 

[moses]

Thank you Inkling, for putting it very very well. It is far too easy to romanticize things and people that are/were in fact awfully brutal.

I am ademantly opposed to the death penalty in the US. I believe it is a substitution of vengance for justice, that does a disservice to both God and man. I won't go into it at length, because that isn't the point - the point is that even though I feel the death penalty is a crime against humanity, I feel that the suggestion that it is somehow equivalent to the human rights attrocities we see in Cuba, China, or many other similar places is seriously perspective lacking.

This is something that often troubled me in my years in Berkeley - the readiness to immediately comdemn the failures of the United States in response to suggestions of the oppressiveness of other regimes. Yes, we have the death penalty, which I, like many, feel is a human rights violation. Yes, while we would like to pretend otherwise, the truth is that a significant percentage of people we put to death are innocent. Yes, there was Abu Ghraib. I believe what happened there was a base lack of humanity. Yes there is Guantanamo. (And before we dismiss the complaints about that on the grounds that we were holding people who were trying to kill us, it would be well to remember that most of the poeple held there are gradually being released because of a lack of any credible evidence that they had anything to do with anything). To say nothing of the fact that in such a rich nation, so many people end up dying as a result of poverty.

Yes we have our faults, but I am tired of hearing them compared to those of China or Cuba, or for that matter the Saddam Hussein regime. All sins may be sins, and may be equal in the eyes of God (I don't really believe that), but they are NOT equal in the harm they do.

I recently had the opportunity to help a Tibetan Llama seeking asylum in the US. He was born to a heriditary position in his community. (Unlike the high level religious leaders, also called Llamas, the Llama as village leader/elder is a role passed directly from father to son). He never received the training that went with his position, however, because his parents both died in a "truck accident." Actually, they went to a protest in 1989 and never came back, and their bodies likewise strangely dissappeared. We he was still in his teens, his cousin who had escaped sent him a box of photographs of the Dalai Llama, which, feeling it was his duty to do so, he distributed to the people of his village. He was picked up by the police and held for two months as a result. Most of that time, he was held in a cell so small that he could not straighten his body in any direction. He was regularly questioned, and beaten severely during questioning. He was also tortured with an electric cattle prod on regular occasions. At one point a guard attacked him with a broken bottle. He still has scars from the treatment he received, as well as suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome. During this period he was never charged with any crime. After his release he participated in three small protests. After the third, he received word that he was being hunted by the police. He hid in a cave in the mountains for several months, where villagers provided him with food. His wife's uncle was the "mayor", and sent him word repeatedly that he would be killed if he was found. As a result, he fled, and escaped with a lot of luck with his wife to Nepal. There he was unable to get a real job, because of lack of legal residence. The militia started to extort money from him, threatening to return him to China. As a result, he sold everything he had of value, and bought fake passport and a plane ticket to LA, where he turned himself in to immigration.

This man's story is not at all atypical, except perhaps in that he was lucky enough to escape, and did not suffer truly crippling injury. The Chinese regime routinely kills and mains people without trial. On the order of possibly thousands a year. It is truly physically extremely dangerous there to express political dissent, especially certain viewpoints. And that is just the beginning. And this barely scratches the surface, of the horrible things the PRC continues to do to its people. (For support, see the US State Department Human Rights Report, or the Tibet Centre for Human Rights and Democracy Report).

So by all means continue to point out the failures of the United States in human rights. Lord knows there are plenty, and there is no excuse for ignoring them. But please do not make a mockery of both the need for improvement here, and the seriousness of the human rights violations that happen in autocratic societies, by suggesting that they are equal.


PS - Like NMMB, I would like to emphasize that while my statements are strongly worded and strongly felt, they are NOT a personal attack on anyone.

PPS - Also apologies for talking about China in a thread about Cuba; unfortunately I know less about Cuba.

 

[yasuo200365]

Personally I would not take the Miami Herald as a good independent source when quoting figures, but lets just suppose they are correct.....,

When did these killings happen? In the last 5, 10, 15 years or 45 years ago?

When the United States had its "Revolution" what proportion of people died then? How about the American "Civil War"? Turbulant times.

The U.S. demonises Castro & Cuba way out of all proportion ..., while I agree it is no paradise, if the U.S. government actually allowed its citizens to visit & walk around Cuba they would find out first hand that Castro is no Stalin or Hitler as has been claimed by some, and that U.S. embargo policy has caused real hardship to the people ..., who are BTW christians in the most part, if that makes it easier to relate to their plight.

That other "handful" (big hands!) that has been mentioned are not christians, they're muslims and as such to some they're automatically "terrorists", sub-human even & the U.S. government has the right to do whatever it wants without justifying itself to anyone ...., just like Hitler & Stalin did.


Regards
John

 

[english_barber]

Good morning,

Gave up the will to live, let alone finish reading these posts....

In Europe Cuba is seen as an inexpensive vacation destination and an investment oppurtunity free from US involvement. Little is known or understood of the conflict between the US and Cuba this side of the atlantic, most people over here are not even interested in finding out.

I believe Cuba to be very warm this time of the year, prehaps we could loan Cuba John Prescott, http://www.deadbrain.co.uk/news/article_2006_07_19_0446.php.

Have a nice day, leave politics to the fools we elect!

Regards, Robert

 

[Andre]

Some of this has truely become surreal! Now there are Good Communists and Bad Communists!? The American Revolution where most died IN BATTLE for an idea that truely revolutionized the world, is now being compared to a Revolution where people were lined up against a wall and shot by the THOUSANDS just because they opposed the idea, or simply because they refused to renounce their Christian faith (back when Castro officially Athiestized [sp?] the country!?

It's obvious that many are still willing to put their fruits in the basket of ANYONE who is in opposition to the American administation, even to the point of making logical and moral contortions that are truely inexplicable. I'm just sorry to see it happening in a case so obvious as Cuba. I don't agree 100% with everything the U.S. does in the world, but I think some of the comparisons made by some to the actions of Terrorists and Communists are shameful. There's no point in carrying this any further.

Andre

 

[Gatorade]

A Cuban trial for crimes consists of protesters asked if they back the Communitst government and sign a statement saying so. No oath or signature and you get put to death.

Neighbors selling out neighbors to get an extra ration of rice.

If Cuba is so free and open to outsiders why is it that a US embargo cripples the Cuban economy? There are no restrictions on Cuba dealing with other countries. Let someone else prop up Cuba.

Mark, I know it was a joke but you do know that when you see those cars they are not really kept for nostaliga. When you lift the hood you find pieces from 30 different make cars on one engine. Bicycle parts used to fix cars and the like. They don't have Pep Boys on the corner. If something in the car brakes they have to make something to fix it with. Nothing like having to decide to cut more off your only garden hose because your radiator hoses have burst.

Dying because you don't believe in the government should not happen. Newspaper reporters are killed on a regular basis for writing something against Castro.

Castro initally had support of people who bought into his ideas of a better life. Little did they know that he only meant a better life for the people he wanted to give it to. Shortly after he took power they regreted it. Cuba now is a shell of what it was in the past.

I suppose the increase in the average life expectancy is not counting the thousands who were executed?

I am stunned that anyone would actually have a posative word to way about Castro. That is like saying Charles Manson isn't so bad. Time and manipulation of the facts have clouded Castros public view. However the countless dead know different.

 

[yasuo200365]

Why is it that the U.S. Government won't allow its citizens to travel to Cuba?

They don't normally restrict them from travelling to other countries, even those with poor human rights records!

Maybe they don't trust an informed US citizen to come to the conclusion that Cuba is 'hell on earth' & Castro is all to blame.

God forbid, these informed citizens may even start thinking (when sitting next to those foreign holiday makers) that they have been exaggerated to, and possibly even lied to. It could result in these people questioning the very foundation of what they have been told about the world.

Ah, now I see why they're not allowed to go.
-----------------------------------
Cuba is no paradise...., in no small part this is due to the U.S. embargo, which was tightened up in the early 1990's.

The embargo is effective because those who trade with Cuba are not welcome in the U.S. - the choice for the business man is between a small Cuban market and the big U.S. market. It is not surprising that this policy has made the lives of the Cuban people very hard indeed.

Instead of doing the sensible thing of taking the opportunity of building bridges after the Cold-War and bringing in reform via the backdoor, the U.S. thought it would be a good idea to tighten the screw and bring more hardship.

It is no wonder that this hard-line U.S. approach resulted in unrest and a tougher Cuban government response.

IMV the fact that Castro is still around today is in some part due to a significant proportion of the Cuban people not wanting the negative influence of the US on their country.

The following link gives the history of Cuba. I suggest those who actually believe that Cuba was a democratic functioning country before 1959 should read up about Batista and his regime and also the negative influence of the U.S. upon Cuba at this time.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/country_profiles/1203355.stm

Regards
John

 

[ouch]

I have a solution. Let's get one of our medium sized naval vessels to tow Cuba across the pond and leave it a few miles off the coast of England. This way, the Brits can extend to them the same reverance, respect, and hospitality that they normally reserve for the French.

 

[Andre]

The U.S. Government restricts travel and trade with Cuba PRIMARILY because the U.S. Cuban lobby doesn't want ANY possibility of Castro benefitting from American travel and commerce. Hell, they wouldn't even allow the Buena Vista Social Club to perform in Miami (at least the first time around, if not always), for this very reason. Same with the Latin Grammy's: Miami seems an obvious choice, but was initially excluded because local Cubans didn't want and would not allow any Cuban musicians or bands to participate. For whatever reason, they are feared enough by politicians, certainly in Florida, to get their way.

As I've said, I disagree with this approach and I think Castro would be gone within a week if American citizens were able to travel freely to Cuba and they caught wind of the fact that we live like Kings compared to 95% of the rest of the world, and the wealth could be shared with them. That's what happened in Eastern Europe, and will happen again in Cuba, eventually.

Has the current U.S. embargo harmed the Cuban people? Sure, to some extent, but they've got bigger issues than not being able to buy Nike's. Opening the portals to a Communist country will only go so far before it leads to either restrictions (on the part of the Communists - to prevent their good thing from coming to an end by default [as the Soviets learned the hard way]), or a democratic revolution by the oppressed citizens of Communist states who start wanting all the stuff that allows people from free nations to be so prosperous, and not have to wait in line for six hours to buy the same Nikes [East Germany].

There are not many Americans gullable enough to think that living in a crappy old apartment building with peeling paint, no A/C, barely working appliances, a '57 Chevy up on blocks out front lacking a simple part - no longer obtainable in Cuba, the need to queue up at various markets on a regular basis (often for hours), frequent electrical brownouts, a healthcare system that, while universal, is hardly world class, and an educational system that teaches you to be a good Communist, rather than critical thinking [more important than literacy], and a system of patrolling guards that are necessary to prevent the masses who would float away in a tire if possible - just to get away, is something to ASPIRE to. Is it "Hell on Earth?" Mostly no - and I never said it was. It's just yet another poor Caribbean country with little prospect of ever giving its people a better life without shunning the intellectual fantasy of the glories of Socialism. An idea long dead among all but the intelligentsia.

IMV the fact that Castro is still around today is in some part due to a significant proportion of the Cuban people not wanting the negative influence of the US on their country.

An astounding statement if I've ever seen one! I shake my head and bow down to you...

Andre

 

[yasuo200365]

For Cuba the U.S. embargo is not about buying Nike trainers - they need 'machine parts & chemicals' - it is these things that allow you to have transport, farm machinary, electrical generators, agricultural fertilizers, paints etc.

If the U.S. doesn't want its businesses to supply these things then fine, but the embargo won't allow other countries businesses to trade with Cuba, otherwise they can't trade in the U.S. - so it is using the size of its market to bully other countries to tow its line.

The consequence of the U.S. embargo is a much harder life for the Cuban people - who I suggest are concerned about more everyday matters than Nike branded running shoes.

Regards
John

Should you want to learn more here are some good links:

Here is a link about the Cuban health system:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/5232628.stm

This is the summary from the World Bank on Cuba's educational system:
http://www.eldis.org/static/DOC8496.htm
and this is a link to the full report:
http://wbln0018.worldbank.org/LAC/LACInfoClient.nsf/0/cd7d7d73295cfeb8852567bd0055f404/$FILE/48.pdf

Finally this is the man who run things in the good ol days (according to the U.S. Government):
http://library.advanced.org/18355/fulgencio_batista.html

 

[AJS]

I have a solution. Let's get one of our medium sized naval vessels to tow Cuba across the pond and leave it a few miles off the coast of England. This way, the Brits can extend to them the same reverance, respect, and hospitality that they normally reserve for the French.

We'll swap France AND Scotland for Cuba Throw in Hawaii and you can have Wales as well

 

[moses]

France and Scotland for Cuba. HELL YES!!!! I don't smoke, and we have that pesky embargo anyway. What good possibly be wrong with bringing the source of the world's best whiskey, as well as a lot of very good expensive wine, and very good cheap wine a little closer.....