What Is Going To Happen To Cuba ?

[moses]

On a more serious note, I thought I would mention this, although I am not sure what the implications are. Cuba is indeed a fairly popular tourist destination. The way that this is run, there are entirely separate stores for Cubans vs. tourists. The one takes the local currency, is poorly stocked and often out of basic necessities. The other takes dollars and probably euros, and has pretty much everything you could need or want. Even if a Cuban national gets their hands on some foreign currency, however, they are not permitted to spend it in the tourist stores, and are still stuck with their crappy ones....



Also, just to note a little disconnect in the conversation:

1) Thinking that the embargo is a really bad idea is NOT the same as supporting Castro or thinking that he is or was good for Cuba.

 

[Andre]

For Cuba the U.S. embargo is not about buying Nike trainers - they need 'machine parts & chemicals' - it is these things that allow you to have transport, farm machinary, electrical generators, agricultural fertilizers, paints etc.

Agreed (as I've said), but get real, and a country's interest in world products ALWAYS include the cool stuff that is basically of U.S. origin, is popularized here, invented here, marketed heavily here, and comes from our way of life. I know that Europeans, in particular like to pretend that's not true, but it is.

If the U.S. doesn't want its businesses to supply these things then fine, but the embargo won't allow other countries businesses to trade with Cuba, otherwise they can't trade in the U.S. - so it is using the size of its market to bully other countries to tow its line.

Maybe, but then this only matters if getting American products or using the American market are important to you. As I said, Everyone likes to pretend that America doesn't matter, but we do. And virtually everything useful in the world right now was either invented here, is made here (or by American comtrolled or owned companies), or is just "important" because American consumers see it's value (as well as all who then copy us). There's not much beyond the very basic which is not American (or Americanized) these days. Like it or not, it's just how it is. Every country maintains its core civilization/culture, but every country now has a huge American cultural influence. I don't think this would happen if everyone hated us as much as they pretend. McDonald's in Paris still does better business than any McDonald's in the U.S. And in ain't just American tourists eating there (as I can attest).

The consequence of the U.S. embargo is a much harder life for the Cuban people - who I suggest are concerned about more everyday matters than Nike branded running shoes.

Obviously, that's not ALL that's important to them. But that's only because they are a pipe dream now. Give them what they need to make a better life and they will then be buying the same American products as the rest of the world.

Should you want to learn more here are some good links:

Here is a link about the Cuban health system:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/5232628.stm

This is the summary from the World Bank on Cuba's educational system:
http://www.eldis.org/static/DOC8496.htm
and this is a link to the full report:
http://wbln0018.worldbank.org/LAC/LACInfoClient.nsf/0/cd7d7d73295cfeb8852567bd0055f404/$FILE/48.pdf

Finally this is the man who run things in the good ol days (according to the U.S. Government):
http://library.advanced.org/18355/fulgencio_batista.html

You really should read these links with a bit more critical thinking. First off the one on healthcare was HARDLY positive. Just because something is considered as an alternative to Britain's, it doesn't mean that it is a positive. That was an example of a screwed up healthcare system that was better (in their opinion) than Britain's, not of one that was great. That article just demonstrated than even a really messed up healthcare system that is just making do, is better than Britain's. Read the article, if that's not clear to you, I can't help you.

As far as education, that "report" was little more than a list of vague bullet points that could be applied to just about any modern nation. The IMPORTANT thing in an education system (not really mentioned) is whether it prepares/allows its people to pursue their dreams in life; whether at 18 a kid can decide he wants to become a doctor, work hard, and do it. MOST educational systems, including in Europe, are not really set up that way. In fact, in most parts of the world, what you do in your earlier school years has an overriding interest in what you are allowed to become. You think the average Cuban (or German for that matter), gets to say, "yeah, well forget about my bad grades in science, I'm going to work had, prove I can do it in college, then get into medical school!" Not generally. More likely the vocational tests he takes as a teenager have locked him into a basic career path, kept him out of all but a vocational college, then the heavy union influence incentivizes him to be happy with his life-long job at the meat packing plant. People who completely change careers every so often, often involving more schooling, are uncommon in most countries, especially ones that are heavily socialized and unionized. Socialized countries do not allow their citizens to purpue their whims all willy-nilly, they can't afford the investment. But this happens all the time in the U.S. (I speak for myself here). Sure it's hard work and requires effort, saving money, etc. But our system is set up for such things. Try going back to school at 42 to take on a completely different career in most countries. If they let you at all, you better have a better reason than "I feel like it."

And any time you see birth stats, you MUST look at how each country counts a "birth." Many countries (even in Europe) don't count a birth at all until it has lived a certain amount of time, so naturally these types of countries will have a better infant mortality rate, because most who die, are never counted. I don't know how Cuba counts hers, but it is the critical piece of information (usually omitted, for some reason). This has been noted over and over again in studies countering the often claim that the U.S. has a lousy infant mortality rate. It's because we count even still births in that number, most countries do not.

In a way, I feel bad even argueing the point with you, because I have rarely met a non-American that sees the world the way we do. Even the poorest American has the ability to change his or her life completely with the application of a little hard work. Even Americans that get a job at 20 and do it their whole lives (like a European) has had more opportunity within that company than the average European ever gets, probably has advanced more, and certainly doesn't see it as all they CAN ever do. To say nothing of the fact that if a person is willing to sacrifice, they can always change their circumstances. Despite what the media likes to tell everyone, only 4% of the American population will STAY in the bottom 20% of income for more than a decade. Most African-Americans make more than $50,000/year (the group most often portrayed as being victimized by society - still earn more on average than the vast majority of people in this world - including the Europeans). Most poor people do not stay that way long. (In fact, the majority (64% last I looked) of people earning minimum wage in this country are the kids of middle class whites earning extra money - think about THAT when someone wants to raise it again!). Can the average Brit wake up one day and decide that, at age 50, they want to become a Doctor, or a Barrister, or a jet pilot, or... Even if we as Americans don't do it, we all know we can - it might be REALLY hard work, but we can.

I'm sure you're a great guy, John, and I'd sit over a pint with you any day, but it is clear that you have a different way of thinking about government and society that I think leads to poverty, more often than not. I think that is absolutey clear from looking at the world now and historically. Unfortunately, I think some people allow particular political points to get in the way of what they should clearly be seeing. The Cuban people have been screwed over by their government, as has been the inevitable practice of all Socialist governments worldwide. I don't discount the U.S.'s effect on this, but you can't pretend than Cuba would be a Socialist paradise, were it not for the U.S. No country in HISTORY has ever had prosperity like that found in the best capatalistic countries, because Socialism lacks fundamental human needs: Change & Opportunity.

I hope the Cuban people will be given Change & Opportunity soon. If they are as hard working, long-suffering, and perseverant as you suggest, they will do fine.

I'm done on this.
Andre

 

[AJS]

France and Scotland for Cuba. HELL YES!!!! I don't smoke, and we have that pesky embargo anyway. What good possibly be wrong with bringing the source of the world's best whiskey, as well as a lot of very good expensive wine, and very good cheap wine a little closer.....

I see you don't want Wales. Oh well, it was worth a shot

 

[Andre]

No, it's just that we want hawaii more!

 

[yasuo200365]

Andre,

I’ll accept that drink anytime, but I hope you don’t assume that I'm communist or even a socialist. In my time I have created a couple of businesses in the City (of London) dealing with private investments, I'm very much the capitalist. Never ever voted Labour, so my conscience is clear with regard to that current twat Blair.

I’m a right of centre, generally pro-American Tory, believe it or not. I’ve been to the States many times and I don’t make the mistake of thinking that the actions of the U.S. government accurately reflect the views of everyone who lives there.

My Mother was American, I had a U.S. born brother (who died in service for his country) and there is my U.K. born brother, married to an American & living in the States.

Enough of my pro-American credentials because I have to tell you your assumption that everyone in the World wants to be like the United States is wrong.

Lots of people strongly believe that the lifestyle in the U.S. is based around over consumption, and relies upon the exploitation of the 3rd World poor and the taking of their natural resources. I'm sure many a Cuban believes that the U.S. is more than capable of becoming a corrupting influence it it helps to achieve their aim.

I do recognise that we in the first World outside of the United States are hypocrites, since our lifestyle also relies upon third world exploitation. Even so many don’t want to be like the U.S. because they think your Work/Life balance is out of kilter. Their argument would be that it is all very fine having lots of consumerist goods and replacing them regularly, but you work too many hours in the day & you take too few holidays throughout the year. Many a European thinks that the U.S. has forgotten what is the best of life.

Others don’t want to be like the U.S. because they don’t like the social structure. Some see racism (especially against blacks) and are put off by the lack of mixing between different races. Then there is the perceived influence that religion is having on education, politics & life in general....,.., Europeans are an ungodly lot. Here in the U.K. I would suggest most do not like your health system as we dislike inequality when it comes to health.

On a personal front I find U.S. political coverage shallow; I don’t like your crime levels, your gun laws and the fact you can’t walk around parts of town especially at night, and of course your TV has too many adverts. As to the American dream – I see no prospect in my lifetime of a woman President, let alone a black one.

Moving on – while I agree you Yanks are an inventive lot, to say that modern life is in the main due to the U.S. is over stating it massively: Here are some things that the world doesn’t owe to the U.S. ,….,
The jet engine, the motor car, the train, the rocket, radio, the web, cloning, Viagra, fuel cells, football (soccer), tennis, golf, radar, desalination, the lavatory, the mobile phone, the walkman, the smart card, the cyclone vacuum cleaner, the Workmate bench, the baby buggy, lava lamps, medical scanners, the rotary piston engine, Velcro, the seat belt, Float (Plate) glass, photography, cinema, the hologram, the ballpoint pen, Polythene, the anglepoise lamp, synthetic insulin, self-winding wrist watch, the tank, the machine gun, stainless steel, the rawlplug, neon lighting, tarmac road surface, disc brakes, catalytic converter, synthesis of ammonia (fertilizers), superconductivity, chaos theory, nuclear fission, the (digital programmable electronic) computer, genetic fingerprinting, monoclonal antibodies (target cancer drugs), the structure of haemoglobin, the structure of DNA etc….,

You did however invent the DE razor and the rhino fat-arse lookalike

Regards
John

 

[moses]

Well, frankly, I think the role of the US in the modern world is a little more complicated than either John or Andre is letting on. Examples. Watson and Crick would probably never have accomplished what they did except for previous work by American scientists. A european may have invented the Car, but I would argue that the US was the driving force behind its development for decades. The point is that US investment or involvement or potential market probably contributed to an awful lot of the developments that make modern life what it is, even if they did not happen here. That said, I am quite sure that if this continent never existed, the rest of the world would have gotten along just about as nicely as it has with us, so I think it is a bit arrogant to suggest that the US has really made the modern world what it is.

 

[Gatorade]

Moving on – while I agree you Yanks are an inventive lot, to say that modern life is in the main due to the U.S. is over stating it massively: Here are some things that the world doesn’t owe to the U.S. ,….,
The jet engine, the motor car, the train, the rocket, radio, the web, cloning, Viagra, fuel cells, football (soccer), tennis, golf, radar, desalination, the lavatory, the mobile phone, the walkman, the smart card, the cyclone vacuum cleaner, the Workmate bench, the baby buggy, lava lamps, medical scanners, the rotary piston engine, Velcro, the seat belt, Float (Plate) glass, photography, cinema, the hologram, the ballpoint pen, Polythene, the anglepoise lamp, synthetic insulin, self-winding wrist watch, the tank, the machine gun, stainless steel, the rawlplug, neon lighting, tarmac road surface, disc brakes, catalytic converter, synthesis of ammonia (fertilizers), superconductivity, chaos theory, nuclear fission, the (digital programmable electronic) computer, genetic fingerprinting, monoclonal antibodies (target cancer drugs), the structure of haemoglobin, the structure of DNA etc….,

You did however invent the DE razor and the rhino fat-arse lookalike

Regards
John

How many of these would never have gotten off the ground or not been as big if there wasn't a US market to bring these to?

 

[ouch]

Imagine how much more America could bring to the world if we had someone else to defend us, and didn't have to spend so much on the military.

 

[Gatorade]

Imagine how much more America could bring to the world if we had someone else to defend us, and didn't have to spend so much on the military.

Imagine what we could do if we didn't have to subsidize the rest of the world!

 

[yasuo200365]

The U.S. doesn't maintain a large military to defend the rest of the World - it has it to wield influence on the World.

Here in Europe we don't see the label "Made In The U.S.A" too much, in fact I don't see it that much when I'm in the U.S.

I think it would be a good idea if you reduced your military, concentrated on your industry and gave the World a rest from your good deeds...., at least until you get some leaders of calibre.

Regards
John

 

[inkling]

I think it would be a good idea if you reduced your military, concentrated on your industry and gave the World a rest from your good deeds...., at least until you get some leaders of calibre.

We would gladly turn over some of our "good deeds" but no one else seems willing or able to accomplish them. Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Tsunami relief and now Iran... we'd love it if Europe would manage a crisis or two instead of just discussing them ad nauseum.

 

[ouch]

The U.S. doesn't maintain a large military to defend the rest of the World - it has it to wield influence on the World.

Here in Europe we don't see the label "Made In The U.S.A" too much, in fact I don't see it that much when I'm in the U.S.

I think it would be a good idea if you reduced your military, concentrated on your industry and gave the World a rest from your good deeds...., at least until you get some leaders of calibre.

Regards
John

This is the very last thing I will say in this thread. It's a joke that not everyone will get, but I've been told that it's not only perfectly constructed, but quite funny, as well.

Q: Why do the English drink warm beer?
A: Lucas refridgerators!


One more thing. Before you continue to comment on American politics, need I remind you that you guys still have a Queen. Or is that just one more thing we're not enlightened enough to understand?

 

[yasuo200365]

One more thing. Before you continue to comment on American politics, need I remind you that you guys still have a Queen. Or is that just one more thing we're not enlightened enough to understand?

Ouch,

Let this link enlighten you as to how another political system works:
http://bhc.britaus.net/About_the_UK/aboutukdefault.asp?id=71

For those who can’t get past the historic & cultural stuff I’ll boil it down to the important phrases:

• The United Kingdom is a parliamentary democracy.
• Parliament is supreme.
• The UK Parliament makes primary legislature.
• The Government derives its authority and membership from Parliament and can only stay in office if it is able to command a majority.
• The judiciary determines common law and interprets legislation.
• The Monarch acts on the advice of her ministers.

Outside the UK

• The Queen is Head of State of 15 other realms.
• In each country where she is Head of State, Her Majesty is represented by a Governor-General, appointed by her on the advice of the ministers of the country concerned and independent of the UK Government.

So Ouch in the U.K. and countries such as Canada & Australia the Queen as Head of State is a symbolic role to represent the nation (and possibly its values?) it is not the Presidential role that countries such as the U.S. and France have.

Personally I have republican sympathies but I would not wish (and Australia recently voted similarly) to have a Presidential system where a single person has so much political influence. I would prefer to keep to a model of a politically benign Head of State and a supreme Parliament, that way we avoid much of the politics of personality, celebrity and cult.

The system in the U.S. can for example allow your President to inflict their prejudices upon the country, i.e. you kept the equivalence of political Royal Assent; something we subsequently removed from our system. A recent example of this is George W’s veto of the Stem Cell bill, and of course there was his posturing over the constitutional amendment with regard to same sex marriage. These are all things an individual couldn’t attempt under our system ….., which I think that is a good thing.

So there you have it, I hope you have found it enlightening and as you can see we have moved on from 1776.

Regards
John

 

[moses]

Ouch,

That may be the funniest thing I've read in a couple of days....
(I used to have an ancient land rover).

Shane

 

[ouch]

Ouch,

That may be the funniest thing I've read in a couple of days....
(I used to have an ancient land rover).

Shane

Anyone who has ever had a Triumph, MG, Austin, or Jaguar knows exactly what I'm talking about.

And John, I promise to download and print all of your references. Apparently, I have enough space to store them, ever since I organized my bookshelves. For some reason, the space I allocated for great English cookbooks remains unused.


Regards from the "American Empire". No, wait- that was your moniker.

 

[Andre]

Well John, the pint is waiting for you next time you're in Florida.

Most, if not all, of those products you named ARE American in the sense that they were either fully developed in America, rather than in their country of origin, or would have gone nowhere without an American market, or essentially reached their current levels of perfection because of American development. Very modern products in the modern world would be anything like how they are without America's direct involvement, regardless of where it might have been invented or manufactured (like the computer you are using right now).

I'm too weary of typing to address all of the issues you raise, so I just won't. Maybe one day we can talk for real.

Andre

 

[maximus]

Andre, you raised a very interesting point about America's involvement in the commercial success of many modern products and it seems to me like you give the fatherland a bit too much credit. You see, America's economy supports those who create a reoccuring need for a certain product or service and that has given birth to many modern yet terrible products. For example, most people here speak against using cartridge shaving systems versus the older DE razor system. But you don't see commercially advertised and marketed DE razor systems in common conglomerates here in the U.S. because they produce a smaller need for repurchase after time has elapsed thus providing the manufactuerer with a better chance at profit. I'm no communist/socialist, but I'm also not exactly in favor of capitalist economy and government proceedings hence why I feel I must place a reasonable rebuttal to your comment on America's "absolutely magnificent contributions to our modern world."

 

[yasuo200365]

For some reason, the space I allocated for great English cookbooks remains unused.

You can use it for your comics ...,

"This will never be a civilised country until we spend more money for books than we do for chewing gum" -Elbert Hubbard on America ( http://www.birdsnest.com/garcia.htm )

Regards
John

 

[AJS]

Anyone who has ever had a Triumph, MG, Austin, or Jaguar knows exactly what I'm talking about.

:

Ascari, Aston Martin, Bentley, Bristol, Invicta, Rolls Royce I wonder if America has any marques to match those?

 

[Gatorade]

Ascari, Aston Martin, Bentley, Bristol, Invicta, Rolls Royce I wonder if America has any marques to match those?

Corvette. Nuff said!