So if I understand correctly , I should use a 24 mm ST-1 in a 26 mm handle ?
New Oumo Synthetic: Competition for the Wald?
- Thread starter rsp1202
- Start date
My ST-1 fan arrived from Rudy today. That Tulip T4 handle size (55mm - Rudy's photo is above) fits my hand perfectly.
It's the slightest bit taller than my Mühle Classic handle which I find to be near perfect for my hand size and grip. With about 3mm of the Tulip's height being taken up by the lip near the knot, the section you hold is almost identical to the STF Classic.
Sometimes your guess is a good one
This ST-1 fiber lathers up a bit differently than the STF, and I'm trying to understand it. I tried a test lather with some Haslingers Schafmilch this afternoon when it arrived. I washed the brush and then rinsed it and gave it 3 or 4 hard shakes.
The brush seems to hold water differently than the STF, and my attempt to load some Haslingers resulted in a runny mess.
About 8 hours later, the brush was mostly dry (Colorado lack of humidity), and I tried my first shave with it.
I used my "STF" technique, which involves dipping a dry brush into a small lathering bowl filled with about 7mm of water. With the Mühle's hybrid bulb, about 50% of the brush ends are wet. With the fan shaped ST-1, it's perhaps 90%
I then loaded the brush directly from the Haslingers puck and painted a dry lather on my face.
With the Haslingers, I'll typically dip the STF twice more to form a yogurt consistency lather - not the sort you see on all of the glamour shots. When I make lather like this, it's pretty, but lacks in lubricity.
The ST-1 required two more dips as well - so a bit more water than the STF given the fan shape and contact surface arey with the water in the bowl.
The knot was set at 54mm (fan), and I'm finding that for this first use, it splays nearly identically to the 25mm Mühle. Somehow, I doubt more loft would have equaled more splay. I need to think more about how fibers bend, and it's effect on backbone and splay, so don't hold me to this half-baked theory which flies in the face of common wisdom. I guess what I'm saying however, is that I like the 54mm.
I'm sure I'll observe some more differences as I play with it. This is my first fan knot, and it's proving to me that there are different ways to achieve the same result.
Knowing what I know now, I don't think I'd prefer either knot over the other, but results are preliminary, and don't expect me to tell you about its performance with dozens of different soaps, 'coz soap collecting isn't my jam.
Once I finish off my Cella Red (nice, but not as nice as the Schafmilch), it's Haslingers Schafmilch for me all the way. While soap experimentation is less painful than blade experimentation, I'm perfectly happy to be in blissful ignorance with my Haslingers
One thing is clear - Rudy's handles are da bomb!
... Thom
It's the slightest bit taller than my Mühle Classic handle which I find to be near perfect for my hand size and grip. With about 3mm of the Tulip's height being taken up by the lip near the knot, the section you hold is almost identical to the STF Classic.
Sometimes your guess is a good one
This ST-1 fiber lathers up a bit differently than the STF, and I'm trying to understand it. I tried a test lather with some Haslingers Schafmilch this afternoon when it arrived. I washed the brush and then rinsed it and gave it 3 or 4 hard shakes.
The brush seems to hold water differently than the STF, and my attempt to load some Haslingers resulted in a runny mess.
About 8 hours later, the brush was mostly dry (Colorado lack of humidity), and I tried my first shave with it.
I used my "STF" technique, which involves dipping a dry brush into a small lathering bowl filled with about 7mm of water. With the Mühle's hybrid bulb, about 50% of the brush ends are wet. With the fan shaped ST-1, it's perhaps 90%
I then loaded the brush directly from the Haslingers puck and painted a dry lather on my face.
With the Haslingers, I'll typically dip the STF twice more to form a yogurt consistency lather - not the sort you see on all of the glamour shots. When I make lather like this, it's pretty, but lacks in lubricity.
The ST-1 required two more dips as well - so a bit more water than the STF given the fan shape and contact surface arey with the water in the bowl.
The knot was set at 54mm (fan), and I'm finding that for this first use, it splays nearly identically to the 25mm Mühle. Somehow, I doubt more loft would have equaled more splay. I need to think more about how fibers bend, and it's effect on backbone and splay, so don't hold me to this half-baked theory which flies in the face of common wisdom. I guess what I'm saying however, is that I like the 54mm.
I'm sure I'll observe some more differences as I play with it. This is my first fan knot, and it's proving to me that there are different ways to achieve the same result.
Knowing what I know now, I don't think I'd prefer either knot over the other, but results are preliminary, and don't expect me to tell you about its performance with dozens of different soaps, 'coz soap collecting isn't my jam.
Once I finish off my Cella Red (nice, but not as nice as the Schafmilch), it's Haslingers Schafmilch for me all the way. While soap experimentation is less painful than blade experimentation, I'm perfectly happy to be in blissful ignorance with my Haslingers
One thing is clear - Rudy's handles are da bomb!
... Thom
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I forget if you hand hold the puck or have a dish, but you might try the drizzle method and a dry brush; sprinkle some warm water on the puck, as much as will stay on the surface, and let it sit a minute. Start trying to pick up your lather and as it gets too dry to keep picking it up, drizzle more water right on the puck. You can pretty much dial in exactly how much you want to load and be left with a dry puck if you do it right.
Currently, I'm a puck holder (in its container). I've tried the bloom water method, but not the drizzle technique. I'll play with it tonight.
BTW, playing with the two dry brushes this morning, the STF has a slightly softer feel than the ST-1 knot (preferable) - just a bit, but noticable at the tips (last 15-20mm). Of course, the STF broke in slightly over time. We'll see how the two compare in a couple months' time.
... Thom
Well, I have 7 or 8 shaves with it, primarily using my Haslingers.
I think this knot absorbs more water than the STF. It seems to wick up into the knot more than the STF. Using the same dip and load technique as with my STF, I can barely pick up any soap. The brush tips are dry.
I increased the water depth in what I'm now calling my dipping bowl from about 7mm to double that - perhaps slightly more. This produces a runny proto lather.
Shaking before loading seems to work. Another few shaves, and I think I'll be get it.
It's balanced on a knife edge however, whereas loading the STF is a mindless activity. It may be due to familiarity. At least I'm making good lather.
The STF at present, splays more easily. I was giving the ST-1 too much credit. It splays about there same, but it wants to spring back. We'll see if it breaks in. If nothing changes, I'd cast my vote in favor of an STF with a handle from Rudy.
Part of the reason I'm pursuing it is because I love Rudy's handle. Also, I don't want to be premature in my assessment (break-in).
... Thom
I think this knot absorbs more water than the STF. It seems to wick up into the knot more than the STF. Using the same dip and load technique as with my STF, I can barely pick up any soap. The brush tips are dry.
I increased the water depth in what I'm now calling my dipping bowl from about 7mm to double that - perhaps slightly more. This produces a runny proto lather.
Shaking before loading seems to work. Another few shaves, and I think I'll be get it.
It's balanced on a knife edge however, whereas loading the STF is a mindless activity. It may be due to familiarity. At least I'm making good lather.
The STF at present, splays more easily. I was giving the ST-1 too much credit. It splays about there same, but it wants to spring back. We'll see if it breaks in. If nothing changes, I'd cast my vote in favor of an STF with a handle from Rudy.
Part of the reason I'm pursuing it is because I love Rudy's handle. Also, I don't want to be premature in my assessment (break-in).
... Thom
Thanks for the review, @Galibier_Numero_Un! I was thinking that fans pick up more water than bulbs because more tips hit the water when one dips them. Could that be it?
I initially thought I compensated by dipping slightly less deeply into my water bowl, since I was covering more surface area. When I could barely load any soap, I dipped a bit more deeply.
I can't say for certain what's transpiring, but it appears as if the water wicks up toward the base of the knot.
Tonight, I tried wetting the brush thoroughly, and then shaking it out vigorously. No dice - I couldn't load any soap.
I then dipped and loaded and got that slightly runny proto lather which resolved into a nice lather.
I'm thinking this brush may be the definition of a lather hog - that there's a minimum amount of water you can predictably get into the brush, which in turn mandates more soap.
That experiment is for tomorrow, and I'll follow up. I'll use the same soak, shake and dip technique, but will swirl 50% more soap.
... Thom
After reading a particular journal mostly dealing with smaller Simpsons brushes, something I hadn't thought about in while struck me: he was theorising that his stubborn brush was sucking up all his lather because he hadn't fulled wet and shook the brush. I have had some experience with this in the past, but kind of forgot about it. Anyway, even though this is a synthetic brush, it occurred to me that I need to try this with the ST-1. If I only squeeze it, the water in the base may prevent it from sucking up my lather by capillary action. I say squeeze on purpose as I find shaking a synthetic brush highly variable and not repeatable. The fibres do seem to retain water, probably on their surface though, so squeezing shouldn't fully wring it out. I will verify with a scale. If nothing else, this knot needs more water to pick up lather as @Galibier_Numero_Un mentions above.
Credit: @AimlessWanderer
Credit: @AimlessWanderer
Which in turn (I believe) means that you need to load more soap to keep your mix in balance.
I may be all wet about this (pun intended), but I find that with vigorous shaking, I can achieve a constant appearance (amount of moisture?), where the bristles clump together, but in very small groups.
Drat ... I'll have to move my digital scale closer to the bathroom
My Synbad knots however, require a lot of rinsing in order to behave this way (clump into small groupings). I suspect this is proof that we don't get all of the soap out of our brushes without heavy rinsing, and furthermore that the STF and the ST-1 knots are less sensitive to small amounts of soap, as far as this clumping is concerned.
... Thom
'nuther try ...
I used my soak, shake and dip method, with the dip being slightly deeper than my STF dip - filling my dipping bowl to about 10mm and bottoming the brush out in it.
I stopped picking up the Haslingers after 20-30 swirls, and went to @APBinNCA's drizzle method. Swirling for about 30 turns, drizzle ... rinse repeat for a total of about 150 swirls.
This was pretty close to perfect. I painted on a rather dry lather with no drips. This followed with three dip / paint / swirl cycles and I got it just about right.
I can see trying the same technique tomorrow, with a bit less vigorous shaking after the initial soak.
Moving the digital scale closer to the bathroom is imminent
... Thom
I used my soak, shake and dip method, with the dip being slightly deeper than my STF dip - filling my dipping bowl to about 10mm and bottoming the brush out in it.
I stopped picking up the Haslingers after 20-30 swirls, and went to @APBinNCA's drizzle method. Swirling for about 30 turns, drizzle ... rinse repeat for a total of about 150 swirls.
This was pretty close to perfect. I painted on a rather dry lather with no drips. This followed with three dip / paint / swirl cycles and I got it just about right.
I can see trying the same technique tomorrow, with a bit less vigorous shaking after the initial soak.
Moving the digital scale closer to the bathroom is imminent
... Thom
Finally got home to test this out, knot is behaving completely different than all previous uses. This is much closer to STF and I suspect this is why RV got a similar result(his technique being more badger based). The downside is it now runs water down the handle.
I ran the brush under water to completely flood it and gave it a firm squeeze, I could see that there was still water in there. In fact, I gave it a few shakes and it came out so I repeated without shaking. I would say this knot is still hungry for soap, but used this way it is no longer a lather hog. I think what's happening is when I go back for more water while face lathering, the fibres are so saturated that they aren't holding onto the lather as suspected. However, this is probably also why it runs down the handle, no where left for any excess water to go. I would recommend being very careful with water additions so they get mixed into the lather and not pushed out of the knot. I was able to shake out excess water a couple times without losing any lather and I suspect that I added too much water too early because I am used to starting with a dry brush. I am honestly surprised by my result and won't be able to repeat my test for several days.
When a man plays with his lather, thats how you know he's serious. Gauging absorption rates, dispersion rates, plush factor, scrub factor, splay factor, and retention rates. Lather hog, lather hog, so much fun, for me and the dog. 
I was about to post the results of last night's variation, but read your experiences first. We seem to be producing identical results - a bit of lather running down the handle, using a similar approach.
Note that the knot is starting to break in - less "spring-back" after splaying. This, after about 10 shaves. It still has a bit to go, in order to "match" the STF.
I continued (as you did) by removing water after a pre-soak; slightly modifying my previous attempt. I'm slowly and steadily closing in on this, but last night's attempt overshot the mark (too much initial water in the knot).
I used my vigorous shaking technique (as opposed to squeezing), but this time I stopped shaking before getting to the "nearly dry" point.
As I mentioned previously, this "nearly dry" point is somewhat repeatable (and "observable") as it is with the STF knot. When "nearly dry", the bristles are almost completely separated, as opposed to clumping into small groups. Repeated shaking after reaching this point yields no discernable differences, at least without measuring with a scale.
Stopping short of this point however, isn't as predictable for me.
With this "wetter than nearly dry" knot, I dipped into my wetting bowl (10 to 12 mm deep), before beginning to load the brush.
This ultimately produced good lather, but it initially ran down the handle - the correct total amount of water, but with it all being introduced too early.
Tonight, I'll revert to a "nearly dry" shake, while performing my first "dip" a bit deeper - this before beginning to load the brush.
I think the solution lies in tuning this in combination with possibly using your incremental drizzle technique.
Stay tuned ...
... Thom
I really want to finish this mini-project and move on, so today I performed 5 or 6 test lathers (lost count).
Today's variations all began as noted above, by wetting the brush and vigorously shaking to achieve a "nearly dry" state.
From there, I varied my brush dip depth into my dipping bowl (say that 5 times quickly).
The best balance reverted to the same dip that I use for my STF brush - filling the bowl 7-8mm deep. I used my fingernail as a depth gauge and measured later.
As mentioned above, this results in a bit more water exposure (depth), since the ST-1 is a fan shape. When dipping the STF to this depth, only about 50% of the brush's hybrid knot is submerged in the 7mm of water.
The touchy part involved whether to begin loading immediately after that dip or to very gently dribble a bit of water out of the brush first - something less than a gentle shaking motion (difficult to describe). Dribble too much out and you can't load much soap. Dribble too little, and it's somewhat of a runny mess.
With this gentle dribbling, combined with increasing the number of swirls in my Haslingers Schafmilch from 100 with the STF to 130, and I got close to the mark.
I panted on a lather that was at the threshold of being runny at the onset, but which ultimately generated a nice consistency without further hydration. This is too tight of a window.
I think the next experiment will involve shaking a bit after loading the brush. It didn't occur to me to see if I can expunge some water immediately before painting.
There's a high probability that I'll revert to the sequential "drizzle" method that @APBinNCA mentioned earlier (and I'm really curious about how you're progressing).
This is a touchy brush to load, at least with the Haslingers. I'll stay away from my Cella until I get a handle on the Schafmilch.
Oh yes ... the brush continues to soften up (splay more easily). I'll confirm this the next time I use my STF knot, but as you can tell, I'm quite driven to dial this knot in first.
... Thom
The saga continues.
Firstly, the brush is breaking in with each shave. I'm fairly confident that it will splay as well as my STF. It's getting closer. We'll see ...
Today's attempt followed the same protocol: soaking/wetting the brush, then vigorously shaking until "almost dry". I followed as before, but with an even more shallow dip (perhaps 5mm). I was still getting a few drops of water running out of the handle.
I don't know much about flow inside the brush (brush hydraulics?), but it's almost as if there was a two-way "pump" - lather out one end and water out the other. I don't have the experience most have on this forum (I'm looking at you, @APBinNCA
), but this is the best way I can characterize it.
My thoughts are that this saturate and shake process results in the brush holding more water at the base of the knot than I expected. Do I try the squeeze method? It's on the table.
For my next try, I'll return to my STF technique: starting with a dry brush and then dipping the ends and loading - adding water with either subsequent dips or drizzling onto the soap as required.
The solution is near ...
... Thom
Firstly, the brush is breaking in with each shave. I'm fairly confident that it will splay as well as my STF. It's getting closer. We'll see ...
Today's attempt followed the same protocol: soaking/wetting the brush, then vigorously shaking until "almost dry". I followed as before, but with an even more shallow dip (perhaps 5mm). I was still getting a few drops of water running out of the handle.
I don't know much about flow inside the brush (brush hydraulics?), but it's almost as if there was a two-way "pump" - lather out one end and water out the other. I don't have the experience most have on this forum (I'm looking at you, @APBinNCA
), but this is the best way I can characterize it.My thoughts are that this saturate and shake process results in the brush holding more water at the base of the knot than I expected. Do I try the squeeze method? It's on the table.
For my next try, I'll return to my STF technique: starting with a dry brush and then dipping the ends and loading - adding water with either subsequent dips or drizzling onto the soap as required.
The solution is near ...
... Thom
It is hard to keep the water mixing in with the paste tips when you're agitating on your face horizontally and even harder when under your chin upside-down. With my Wald, I had been adding a tiny bit of bowl hydration with the intent of keeping the water mixing in with the pasty tips and not running back towards the handle. I load the brush then do a few dips of the tips and swirls in a small bowl with the brush vertical/knot-down. That is just to hydrate the paste a bit more, not to build lather. Then I face lather and I don't do as may tip-dips. This method has helped me get the hydration better for the first pass.
@T Bone mentioned I could probably get the same effect by dipping the tips a couple times while loading. E.g. 15 swirls with a mostly shaken out brush, tip dip, 15 swirls, tip dip, ...
We're all still experimenting and learning.
@T Bone mentioned I could probably get the same effect by dipping the tips a couple times while loading. E.g. 15 swirls with a mostly shaken out brush, tip dip, 15 swirls, tip dip, ...
We're all still experimenting and learning.
Thanks for confirming. This variation is very likely where this is headed. This was on the threshold of my awareness, but not yet fully formed ;-)
All is not lost (the simplicity/directness of face lathering). I'm already using a bowl to dip 'n go. It's only a matter of using a few drops of water and swirling a short while (only to load - not build lather) instead of dip 'n go.
One thing I believe @APBinNCA , mentioned upstream, is the knot density.
While the ST-1 doesn't "feel" more dense than my STF, the central section dries more slowly than the STF does.
... Thom
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It won't feel the as dense because it's a fan knot and they have less backbone due to the shape. The fact that it's taking longer to dry the inside tells you that it must be denser. Further, the STF has a very long base section that the ST-1 doesn't have so you would think that it would take forever to dry, but it doesn't.
Closing in on this - at least with Haslingers Schafmilch.
The Process:
I could call it "done" - at least with the Haslingers, but of course, I'll play with this a bit more.
I'd love to eliminate the bowl step (after loading the brush), but I suspect this will be part of the process. It's no big deal, and only would be if I used the brush for travel, as I prefer to take just a brush and soap with me (no bowl - not even a collapsible "slow feed" bowl like the one from Stirling).
The brush gets softer with each shave. In a week or so, I'll pause the experiment and compare with my STF.
The next step will involve playing with Cella Red to see what variations are required.
... Thom
The Process:
- Start with a dry brush
- Dip into 20-22mm of water (first knuckle on my index finger)
- Load soap directly from the puck: 110-120 swirls
- Empty lather bowl and swirl 10 or 15 times
- Face lather
I could call it "done" - at least with the Haslingers, but of course, I'll play with this a bit more.
I'd love to eliminate the bowl step (after loading the brush), but I suspect this will be part of the process. It's no big deal, and only would be if I used the brush for travel, as I prefer to take just a brush and soap with me (no bowl - not even a collapsible "slow feed" bowl like the one from Stirling).
The brush gets softer with each shave. In a week or so, I'll pause the experiment and compare with my STF.
The next step will involve playing with Cella Red to see what variations are required.
... Thom
Well this is crazy and coming around full circle. I eliminated the swirl-in-the-bowl step (immediately before face lathering - see post immediately above), and everything is hunky-dory.
The crazy part is that this is where I started back on 28-Oct - using my Mühle STF technique. The only difference was that with the Mühle, my dip was 7mm deep (exposing only the center half of the quasi-bulb) and with the ST-1, the water is about 1 knuckle deep (20-22mm) - big difference, I suppose.
One thing to note is with this 20-22mm dip, the ends of the brush are dripping. I gave the brush something less than a gentle shake (a gentle wiggle?) to drain some water, after which, I loaded from the puck (same as it ever was: 110-120 swirls).
I'm OK with this, even if I can't explain it
I'll repeat this process one more time and then do a comparo with my STF which has been sitting patiently and waiting for attention for some 18 days ;-) With nearly three weeks' passage, I'm interested in comparing the splay. Am I getting used to slightly less splay, or is the ST-1 breaking in the way the STF did?
After that, I'll tackle the Cella Red.
... Thom
The crazy part is that this is where I started back on 28-Oct - using my Mühle STF technique. The only difference was that with the Mühle, my dip was 7mm deep (exposing only the center half of the quasi-bulb) and with the ST-1, the water is about 1 knuckle deep (20-22mm) - big difference, I suppose.
One thing to note is with this 20-22mm dip, the ends of the brush are dripping. I gave the brush something less than a gentle shake (a gentle wiggle?) to drain some water, after which, I loaded from the puck (same as it ever was: 110-120 swirls).
I'm OK with this, even if I can't explain it
I'll repeat this process one more time and then do a comparo with my STF which has been sitting patiently and waiting for attention for some 18 days ;-) With nearly three weeks' passage, I'm interested in comparing the splay. Am I getting used to slightly less splay, or is the ST-1 breaking in the way the STF did?
After that, I'll tackle the Cella Red.
... Thom
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