Need Gun Advice!

[Axeman]

Hello Gents,

Trying to sort this out, I have narrowed down my first rifle purchase (build) to two guns. Whichever I buy I will be stuck with for the next few years until I can build the other. I have never shot either of these guns but have decided I would enjoy both for their various merits.

Between these two specific builds, which would you recommend I build first and why?

Primary Uses: SHTF/Home Defense/Plinking/Target practice/Carbine Classes.

Option 1:
Converted Saiga .223 (also can fire 556 per Izhmash Website)
Including Aimpoint Micro sight (co-whitnessed)
G2 Trigger Upgrade
Ultimak Handguard
AR Mag conversion with Pmags
Ace Skeleton Stock
Ergo Grip
1/10 barrel twist, chrome lined
Likely to perform around 2 - 3 MOA
Eats any ammo
Loses accuracy past roughly 200 - 300 yards
Requires extensive modification with dremel to fully convert
Arguably the most reliable platform ever built (just as reliable in .223 from my research)

Cost to build: Roughly $1600 dollars.

Option 2:
Spikes AR 15, specifically with:
Spikes Complete Upper and Stripped Lower (1/7 twist chrome lined)
RRA 2 stage lower parts kit
Ace Socom Stock
Magpul MOE Handguard
Ergo Grip
Aimpoint Comp M3 (co-whitnessed)
Troy BUIS
Pmags
Likely to run 1-2 MOA
Good accuracy to 400-500 yards
Needs to run wet and be cleaned more often
More complexity in the action (chance for problems)

Cost to Build: Roughly $1600 as well.

I went with 223/556 because of the low cost to practice, low recoil, light weight, flat trajectory, effective range, and ammo availability. Also, with the Saiga, I didn't want to worry about any kind of import ban in the future affecting availability of ammo for such a large investment.

I think the Saiga looks slightly cooler for my tastes and certainly performs well at any justifiable self defense range. I also like its durability and that it can fire 223/556 and use AR mags. I also really like the piston system as far as reliability is concerned. It also eats up cheap steel ammo which I will most likely be using. I worry I won't have as much fun at the range if it is less accurate than I am.

I think the AR is awesome. I worry about maintenance and the sheer complexity of the action. I like that its tighter tolerances allow such a high degree of accuracy, especially at such long distances. The direct impingement system is somewhat of a concern though I do think the gun itself is very reliable compared to earlier versions. With the Aimpoint Comp M3 (2moa) dot I can fully expect to use the rifle to its effective range. However, for self defense, this really has no bearing.

In short, I want both, have fired neither, and have to start with one. I have attached some similar pictures for reference of these builds.

Any wisdom would be appreciated!

 

[7mary3]

If you take care of your AR platform it will not let you down. Further, the time you spend cleaning and caring for the weapon will help to make you more intimately familiar with it. This platform was BUILT for the 5.56. The Saiga platform was not. Reliability on this weapon should not be an issue for you. Unless you are in a combat zone, I cannot foresee a weapon failure on the AR platform that would be caused by anything other than crap ammo or neglect. Take care of the weapon as you should (just like any other weapon) and you won't have to worry about it.

Build the AR. Learn it and love it. It won't let you down if you do your part.

 

[cb91710]

SHTF/Home Defense/Plinking/Target practice/Carbine Classes?

The AR build will be better for target practice and carbine classes.
For pure plinking, you can't beat the price on 7.62... but you could also get a dedicated .22lr upper for the AR and shoot 500 rounds for $20.

For SHTF and home defense, you want a 12ga.

Everyone has visions of SHTF being "Red Dawn" and needing to shoot out 300 yards, but in reality, you're going to be in a home/personal defense situation.
You'll be defending your possessions, resources, and family at your camp. You won't be shooting anyone at 300 yards... that vehicle coming up the road might be a friend or family member, or someone with supplies to barter.

So of those two builds, I'd go with the AR platform (and I have three), but seriously evaluate your needs and consider dropping another few hundred on a Remington 870 or Moosberg 500.
BTW: 00 Buck for defense. Birdshot is for birds and is not guaranteed to be lethal against a larger target, particularly wearing leather and denim.

 

[MASSDRIVER]

Do yourself a favor. Go to lightfighter.com. Read up in the Primary weapons forums about the realities of finding a quality carbine, and what rounds will do and not do.
The notions of shotguns vs. a combat rifle are very outdated. A LOT, LOT, LOT has been learned in the past 10 tears about effective rifles and rounds. Including what rifles you can stake your life on.
Lightfighter is comprised of people that are either in combat now, or have been and are industry professionals, and can give you clear advice on where to start.
Brent.

 

[Medscript]

If distance is a concern get a m1, good out to 1000 yards. Home defense...either a pistol or shotgun... No point in shooting through multiple walls which is what would happen with 556 or 7.62

 

[MASSDRIVER]

If distance is a concern get a m1, good out to 1000 yards. Home defense...either a pistol or shotgun... No point in shooting through multiple walls which is what would happen with 556 or 7.62

5.56 Has LESS penetration through wall barriers than pistol calibers.

 

[Hammertime1]

I have personally built two rifles from Spikes parts. They are an amazing company, who
turns out a product that is better then most. They are a true tier1 or better company for Ar's and parts. They demand the best from their manufactures and go to great lengths to make sure thats what they receive. Their customer service is second to none. They stand behind their rifles and parts. I have emailed several alleged best of the best companies several times about their Ar or parts when I was doing my research and never got a single response, voice mails went left unsaswered too! When I bought some very expensive parts from another company and found an issue with one of the parts they wouldn't retune emails or voice emails either! Had a a lifetime warranty doesn't do me any good of you came get an RMA to retire it.
On the first build,
I was doing I emailed spikes a question about the Billet set I wanted to get on the waiting list for if they would do a slight modification and I mentioned about my recent issues I was having with a certain company. They offered and sent me the part for free. Every time I ever emailed or called I got a same day response and my questions were always answered. The FFL who Ordered the lowers for me also builds and does custom machine shop work on parts. He was amazed for what I paid for the first lower the quality of it. Said it was one best lowers he saw even compared to ones at triple the price. As long as your happy that what matters. Thier entry level models are hard to beat for the price too.

 

[Axeman]

performs well at any justifiable self defense range

Please enlighten me on what you think that is?

Obviously that's a pretty circumstantial statement, but I would say under 20 feet or so. Sometimes less. Often not more.

 

[beginish]

Just a friendly reminder that self defense discussions belong in the Barber Shop, and NOT here in the Great Outdoors, so let's keep the comments in this thread directed at the sporting aspects of this equipment.

 

[Budgeteer]

Do yourself a favor. Go to lightfighter.com. Read up in the Primary weapons forums about the realities of finding a quality carbine, and what rounds will do and not do.
The notions of shotguns vs. a combat rifle are very outdated. A LOT, LOT, LOT has been learned in the past 10 tears about effective rifles and rounds. Including what rifles you can stake your life on.
Lightfighter is comprised of people that are either in combat now, or have been and are industry professionals, and can give you clear advice on where to start.
Brent.

Amen.....Lightfighter will not let you down. M4Carbine.net is also good, but ***hats get through sometimes. Please stay away from "the other site."

Also, take a look at BCM. I've been very happy with my 16" mid-length from them. If you're set on an RDS from the get-go (and no real reason not to be), look at the Aimpoint PRO. It's an excellent value and does exactly what it needs to do.

 

[noelekal]

This is only one person's personal opinion so take it with a grain of salt.

I have no clue about all the equipment modifications, upgrades, the various vendors supplying them, or why they are necessary additions. Those lists begin to more look like playing dress-up Barbie rather than shooting sports participation. That's fine too if one finds mixing and matching customization an entertaining hobby. You mention "looks cooler" and looks is as valid a reason as effectiveness for building up a rifle here in the "land of the free." But when Dremel Tool work for conversions is considered necessary along with all the other extensive reworking that is mentioned it would seem expedient to take the basic rifle on a "test drive" first in order to determine what improvements are truly needed. Those lists are so extensive and the rifle design hasn't been chosen or even test fired yet.

More personal thoughts and opinion following.

I love rifles and rifle shooting best of all!

Purchasing equipment and accessory add-ons will not an expert rifleman make. One can't buy skills that way.

Two to three MOA will not be gratifying accuracy.

That AR 15 with that Aimpoint really ought to do better than 2 MOA.

How dependable is that Siaga really? It may be fine but just because one reads of it's reliability doesn't mean it will prove to be best. I've never seen one on a firing line at a high-power match but I don't get out as often as I used to.

"Good accuracy to 400-500 yards." 400-500 yards is a long way out there. They have successfully turned a "sow's ear into a silk purse" and heavy .223 bullets fired through quick-twist barrels are capable of excellent, match-winning accuracy these days at such distances. Such accuracy is not available with low-cost .223 ammunition though but rather is an expensive proposition, whether match grade ammunition is purchased or hand loaded. Do you have a place to shoot the rifle at such distances? Are you willing to expend the funds and labor to produce effective ammunition for use at such distances? Firing cheap practice ammunition off at such distances amounts to firing for effect.

You mention "effective range" and the .223 would serve as an intermediate range cartridge for many purposes. It isn't especially adept as a long range round. The .223 is best considered as a middling .22 center fire varmint cartridge, offering more performance than the .22 Hornet and .222 Remington but falling short of the capabilities of the .22-250 or the .220 Swift. The .223 isn't an outstanding big game round even if it is employed frequently down here in Texas for deer hunting. It'll do with picked shots.

If you really want to the application of your bullets to cause things to happen down range at longer distances, consider a .30 caliber.

If you ever intend to get into high-power competition then the rifle will have conform to certain rules and specifications. Will all the items on the list be allowed? Will the Siaga based rifle be allowed at all? Attend a high-power match in your area and see what's on the firing line. Regular participation in such a match is the best and most enjoyable way to use a rifle in my view. Effective all-around shooting skills may be gained faster and practiced regularly in high-power competition. It gives owning such a rifle a real purpose. The targets at 200, 300, and 600 yards will indicate what the shooter and his equipment are capable of accomplishing and will chart progress. It's all very gratifying!

You mentioned" "I think the AR is awesome. I worry about maintenance and the sheer complexity of the action." Though it is wildly popular right now it isn't my favorite design. It also isn't necessarily conducive to tinkering at the owner level despite the fact that a cottage industry has sprung up promoting such. An owner monkeyed-with rifle is a rifle full of gremlins that may never become satisfactory. $1600 is a lot to spend to come up with a rifle that won't run properly. Many times the owner flounders around with an unsatisfactory rifle, continuing to purchase after-market parts in an effort to get the rifle to shoot. You really need to study the rifle after you have it in hand before planning modifications. $1600 is a substantial investment. One needs to be certain what the expenditure of funds is really buying him.

I'm an old high-power competitor who shot mostly in the heyday of the .30 caliber. I've used the .223 a dab in local competition but confess to being biased against it as a "real" high-power cartridge for long range use. It's a bit of a performance weenie at really long distances but fine for the person desiring less recoil and it has been made to group well on paper targets at long range. Personal experience and observations with it at 300 yards and beyond seems to find that it is that it is more affected by wind than the .30 calibers but my own AR 15 is an older one with the 1-12" twist barrel, useful for M193 ball equivalent loadings and their 55 grain bullets.

The AR 15 and the .223 cartridge is great fun for general shooting, plinking, and for use in competition on short courses using reduction targets. We have an informal 200-yard range set up on the side of a hill and shoot regularly on the old home place. Gallon milk jugs full of lake water are fun for standing, off-hand shooting at such distances. A .223 semi-auto rifle could stand in for duty in the other areas that have been mentioned.

Really, simple is better and the money expended on ammunition and shooting will be a better initial investment than a bunch of gadgets.

Along with a friendly ranch owner, my brother-in-law and I indulge ourselves in informal long distance shooting at targets from 100 yards to infinity, shooting from a ledge down into a long canyon in far southwest Texas. Here I'm shooting my M1A at 330 yards (according to my B-I-L's range finder). On another occasion I brought out an 1903-A3 for a session and am shooting it at 604 yards (not 603 yards and not 605 yards according to that range finder). This '03A3 was the rifle I initially used for the first few years of my high-power competition efforts. I'm a little skeptical of the range finder.

It's informal and a bit imprecise but is great fun. We set up targets or pick selected rocks to chip away at. The .223 is not as gratifying for the really long distances as it is difficult to spot bullet strikes.

We're going in the next couple of weeks and on this upcoming trip we're planning to use our Spanish American War vintage Krag Jorgensens and a couple of cheap Mosin Nagants for most of the shooting fun.

 

[The Nid Hog]

Just a friendly reminder that self defense discussions belong in the Barber Shop, and NOT here in the Great Outdoors, so let's keep the comments in this thread directed at the sporting aspects of this equipment.

I thought we were going to move them to The Panic Room?

 

[beginish]

I thought we were going to move them to The Panic Room?

That's next.

 

[The Nid Hog]

This is only one person's personal opinion so take it with a grain of salt.

...

We're going in the next couple of weeks and on this upcoming trip we're planning to use our Spanish American War vintage Krag Jorgensens and a couple of cheap Mosin Nagants for most of the shooting fun.

Great photos and excellent advice. I haven't shot in a long time and you make me want to get out again.

 

[Mick]

We're going in the next couple of weeks and on this upcoming trip we're planning to use our Spanish American War vintage Krag Jorgensens and a couple of cheap Mosin Nagants for most of the shooting fun.

Those 30 cal Krags have the nicest actions. Little odd on the loading gate but smooth as butter to cycle.

Where are you getting 30-40 ammo cheap enough to go "plinking"? You rolling your own?

 

[noelekal]

Hi turtle;

I roll my own but recently have been given 80 rounds of 50+ year old Winchester Western factory 180 grain loads that looks clean and bright that I'm sharing with my brother-in-law who just added a Krag to his collection. I'll also be shooting some handloads as well.

It's more a story for another thread but I've enjoyed playing with this old Krag since I was a teenager and that was in the mid-1970s. I wrote up a piece for a now defunct internet firearms forum some years ago. I've stuck it up on several forums since. I'll put it up here here just for fun and to see how much interest there is in firearms from bygone times. I love old guns.

To steer this post back in a tortured direction toward the original, even the Krag Jorgensen produced in 1894 is a sub-2 MOA shooter from the bench rest so a .223 rifle set up with the right sighting equipment has to be better than that.

 

[Axeman]

Noelekal, you make some excellent points and there are some good things you brought up to consider.

Naturally I assumed to answer this question people would look at the various merits/downsides of each rifle and their intended uses to come to conclusion which they would choose and why. I guess I am looking for a little reassurance I'm making the right choice between the two. Or at least I would like to see some other perspectives.

A generalization of Saiga Vs AR in .223 would naturally lead to questions of specifics. I should have anticipated talking specifics would lead to generalizations.

1-2 MOA with the AR was where I thought I would be with the spikes upper in its standard configuration, mostly based on the reputation of that particular upper mated with that particular lower. This is never a guarantee but a reasonable expectation. The dual stage trigger would help my accuracy but would not really affect the ability of the gun. The same goes for the rest of the parts listed. Keep in mind, as you stated, I haven't built either of these yet and you can't compare two weapons that haven't been built or fired with anything but expectations. I have heard of AR's getting 3 MOA and Saigas that shoot 1. Most likely, whichever I chose, on average would fall in the limits of my expectations, so anyone reading the comparison would have the information they need to answer the question.

"Those lists are so extensive and the rifle design hasn't been chosen or even test fired yet" - I think we missed each other here. I have actually decided on both these specific designs for too many reasons to list but primarily because of their intended use. Also each particular part was selected because it was the best I could afford to end up within my price point all focused on its intended use. I was also looking for the reason behind peoples choice and some different perspectives/thoughts.

Distance shooting was not really something I expect to do with the rifle, but it is nice that it has the ability. Obviously, that strength would go to the AR. Most ranges where I live (right next to DC) are shorter, 100 or less. That being said, my primary use was (SHTF/Home Defense/Carbine Classes/Plinking/Target shooting). If I wanted a high powered long distance tack driver, then neither of the two rifles would be best suited for that. Personally I would be looking for a bolt gun in 308. In all likelihood, I will progress to that after I have maxed out my close range skills with one of the two builds I proposed.

I doubt I would ever shoot beyond 300 yards with either weapon because neither are best for that unless built for that purpose. If that was the case, I would have proposed an AR 10 or bolt gun Also, keep in mind my choice of sights. The dot alone on the Aimpoint Micro for the Saiga is 4MOA.

"Really, simple is better and the money expended on ammunition and shooting will be a better initial investment than a bunch of gadgets" - I agree with you on this too. Remember both of these are considered builds. I like high capacity semi automatics. The only part I have on either build that is not absolutely necessary for the function of the gun is the handguards. The only reason they are there is so that I can add a Vertical foregrip, making both guns better suited for my first two primary uses (SHTF/HD). Everything else is standard issue.

The particular parts I chose and listed were picked because I thought they were the best for their purpose for each specific gun within the constraints of each platform, as well as my wallet.

"Two to three MOA will not be gratifying accuracy" This is the biggest concern for me that moves me a little towards choosing the AR. I hope you are right about getting less than 2 MOA with the AR but keep in mind that Aimpoint has a 2MOA red dot. decisions decisions.

Thanks for the input.

 

[Axeman]

I'll check that out, thanks for the advice. It was really hard to find something that would co-whitness on the saiga, hence the 4moa aimpoint. The AR probably has a million companies making the picatinny spacer so I could change optics like a madman.

Amen.....Lightfighter will not let you down. M4Carbine.net is also good, but ***hats get through sometimes. Please stay away from "the other site."

Also, take a look at BCM. I've been very happy with my 16" mid-length from them. If you're set on an RDS from the get-go (and no real reason not to be), look at the Aimpoint PRO. It's an excellent value and does exactly what it needs to do.

 

[Mick]

Primary Uses: SHTF

You might want to get yourself a couple of class 3.. There's nothing like a belt fed 50 or even a light belt fed 30 when you are in a tight spot. Don't ask me how I know as I don't want to get this thread locked for you.

 

[Axeman]

You might want to get yourself a couple of class 3.. There's nothing like a belt fed 50 or even a light belt fed 30 when you are in a tight spot. Don't ask me how I know as I don't want to get this thread locked for you.

Haha. If they weren't so far above my price point I'd be making dust with the 50. I like where your heads at.