I have read many posts on natural stones but?

[papi]

Please consider at least a 6” ultra fine Ark unless your razors are all 5/8 and smaller.

Will do! thanks for the extra advice.
I feel like I should put a dunce hat on and sit on a tall stool.
Today the IT paste was in my mailbox. I used my old canvas pant leg with just a couple x daps.
I just finished a first-time proper shave with a straight razor. The edge did not feel different from my Gem blades. I like to shave in the late night to enjoy it
I never knew a little dab of magic crayon would change the entire situation. I guess we are not too old to live and learn. LOL. it was a lot of work to get to this spot. long way to go with smile blades and natural stones. Little at a time hopefully.
All of you guys are something else. Good bunch of people.

 

[life2short1971]

Will do! thanks for the extra advice.
I feel like I should put a dunce hat on and sit on a tall stool.
Today the IT paste was in my mailbox. I used my old canvas pant leg with just a couple x daps.
I just finished a first-time proper shave with a straight razor. The edge did not feel different from my Gem blades. I like to shave in the late night to enjoy it
I never knew a little dab of magic crayon would change the entire situation. I guess we are not too old to live and learn. LOL. it was a lot of work to get to this spot. long way to go with smile blades and natural stones. Little at a time hopefully.
All of you guys are something else. Good bunch of people.

We all started like you and learned from others as we went along so no need for the dunce cap unless you have enough for everyone.

 

[life2short1971]

One last post I would like to share which I accidentally wrote in another thread first.I just picked up what was called an ultra fine Arkansas and the edges it provides are quite comfortable as a finisher on its own after an 8k synthetic and I’m quite happy without needing a pasted strop afterwords. Just contact me if and when your ready to try an edge.

 

[frbock]

I have been researching reading, and watching videos. I hope no one will mind the same old subjects from a new person. I have tried to find answers by searching the site and online is never straightforward.

I read comments that it would be good to go to a natural stone instead of going forward with synthetic stones. I have the Shapton Pro 5k, 8k and 12k.

Jnats are out because they are way too much for my budget.
Escher Thuraigan stones are too expensive
The ILR slate stones are too controversial, even though it is tempting, but I will pass.

A surgical Arkansas stone is not too expensive.
A translucent Arkansas stone is getting up there, I have no idea which stone is best the surgical or the translucent.

the Belgian blue stones are an option and then of course a Conticlue is within reason but getting up there too.

Any sound advice on this age-old question of what would be a good way to go for a beginner?

I personally am concerned about the process of lapping, flattening, and or polishing the stones mentioned.

I am not in a hurry at all with this, because I am experimenting with compounds and still have a long way to go on my honing learning curve.
Thank you all as usual.

Somebody did a study on the Arkansas stones. They decided to compare the scratches on the steel from each stone to various grit powders.
Arkanas stones are graded on specific gravity. Black and translucent have the same density. But it turns out that a surgical black leaves scratch marks like a 3000 grit powder, but the translucent is about 3800.
If you want a higher polish, the local auto stores carry sanding discs in 5 and 10 thousand grit(headlight cover restoration). A little spray adhesive on the back of the paper and attach it to a piece of float glass and voila.

 

[bmiller3230]

Not sure I agree with this. I’ve had a few coticules in my day and have yet to find one that can’t be used to make a razor shave ready. A bit of a learning curve, yes.

I really only recently realized that. You do have to adjust your honing technique based on the qualities of the coticule. I recently figured that out about a few that I thought weren't going to work for me for razors. But now they are my favorites

 

[Gamma]

"Somebody did a study..."
sigh....

A translucent, or equivalent, Arkansas stone could possibly leave coarse scratches, if used incorrectly, or almost non-existent scratches when prepped and used the right way.
How the stone is prepared and used determines the outcome. Can't make a sensible comparison of Arks to loose grit, it's not even apples and oranges, more like Rhinos and Slinkys.

A well handled finished Ark edge can easily outshine 12000 JIS grit finished edges.

Coticules, any one I've owned has been capable of finishing an edge capable of shaving.
Skills are required though.

 

[life2short1971]

"Somebody did a study..."
sigh....

A translucent, or equivalent, Arkansas stone could possibly leave coarse scratches, if used incorrectly, or almost non-existent scratches when prepped and used the right way.
How the stone is prepared and used determines the outcome. Can't make a sensible comparison of Arks to loose grit, it's not even apples and oranges, more like Rhinos and Slinkys.

A well handled finished Ark edge can easily outshine 12000 JIS grit finished edges.

Coticules, any one I've owned has been capable of finishing an edge capable of shaving.
Skills are required though.

Well said
Happy Thansgivin

 

[Gamma]

@life2short1971 & @everyoneelsetoo

Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[SliceOfLife]

"How the stone is prepared and used determines the outcome. Can't make a sensible comparison of Arks to loose grit, it's not even apples and oranges, more like Rhinos and Slinkys."

That is crazy... Now HIPPOS and Slinkys... There's a comparison.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Yea, it does not work that way, it is not just about the grit size. And a hard Ark will produce a stria pattern and edge much higher than 3k sand paper AND much more comfortable that a much higher grit synthetic stones or film.

For hard stones it is about the binder and the grit, and how the stone face is finished. It is also why an 400 grit, India stone face, precision machined on a Diamond wheel surface grinder can mirror polish, (Precision Ground Flat Stones).

 

[Gamma]

That is crazy... Now HIPPOS and Slinkys... There's a comparison

Meh - the only one that made any sense was the caterpillar. Maybe the train. The hippo was dumb.

 

[frbock]

For all the poo-poos out there. A hard translucent and a surgical black have the exact same specific gravity(SG). So, why are they different? They shouldn't be.
The test used standardized pressure on the stones, and the grit, and only compared the average scratch pattern.
Would the scratch patterns change if the pressure is changed? Maybe.
My takeaway is the SG doesn't help because the test showed a clear difference between a black and translucent.
What's actually needed is another study where the pressure is adjusted. I could see higher grit readings under light pressure.
That would open the next question, is it only noviculite, or does it apply to waterstones too.

 

[Steve56]

Yea, it does not work that way, it is not just about the grit size. And a hard Ark will produce a stria pattern and edge much higher than 3k sand paper AND much more comfortable that a much higher grit synthetic stones or film.

For hard stones it is about the binder and the grit, and how the stone face is finished. It is also why an 400 grit, India stone face, precision machined on a Diamond wheel surface grinder can mirror polish, (Precision Ground Flat Stones).

This post reminds me of the old barber hones. Lap one and you can’t bear to shave from an edge from it, but use it until the ‘grit’ flattens off with use and acts much finer, and it’s - well, an 8k edge

I believe it’s kind of the same thing with Arks, but conditioned Arks can produce a much finer edge than a barber hone.

How the stone face is finished is also relevant to hard JNats, and other stones, and I like to call it the ‘Arkansas effect’. The effect of face finish isn’t limited to any class of stones except maybe soft, self-slurrying stones.

I’m sort of in between on the India stones, I followed the lead from my friend @Southbound1 and de-oiled, then flattened my India stone with SiC and then removed the crown with a diamond plate under running water. The India acts like a 500-800 grit synth and produces a nice finish with not a lot of deep scratches. Why do it? Because we can, and if you need to do mass metal removal on a knife or SR, it’s an alternative option for coarse work that’s cheap and doesn’t wear out.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

If this is the "test" I'm thinking of,
1. They only used one stone of each type
2. They made no mention of how the surface of the stone was lapped and dressed (beyond being "broken in" with a knife)
3. The black and translucent were only in the mid-2.5 range for SG

I'll let the reader decide which of those factors would impact the "results" of the "test" the most.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

As an addendum to my last post: the issue of honing pressure seems like the hardest variable to control on a test like that. As I recall they used a sharpening jig to try to mitigate that factor. Which, I think that could work, or at least work well enough for a test like this, but you really would want to repeat the process several times on the same stone to ensure that your results were consistent, before comparing different stones. Once you have that dialed in, I can see a test like that being useful for comparing different levels of surface prep (though, that seems to not have even been on their radar).

I can't imagine doing the "test" as they described it and drawing broad conclusions about the entire range of stones, without a lot of repetition, and without trying several examples of of each class of stone.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“For all the poo-poos out there. A hard translucent and a surgical black have the exact same specific gravity(SG). So, why are they different? They shouldn't be.”

Because they are Natural stones. A natural stone can vary from one side to the other.

Take a walk through a Stone Slab yard and see stone slabs cut in 1inch flitches and note the dramatic difference in appearance from one side to the other.



“Would the scratch patterns change if the pressure is changed? Maybe.”

Absolutely. Here is an old photo from Seraphim, same chalk, same sidewalk different pressure.

 

[kayvee]

The India acts like a 500-800 grit synth and produces a nice finish with not a lot of deep scratches

Do you use it with water or oil? Does it load up? I have a Harborfreight India stone that doesn’t have oil yet. I could try that out I suppose.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Yup, water. Nortons also are not soaked they finish Arks nicely from the fine India finish you can go to wet and dry 400-600 with a cork. Roll the cork to get new grit. I lap over a pond, plastic shoe box in sink, dunk frequently.

The India finish is aggressive and works well for a dual grit Ark

I often use a fine India on kitchen knives to remove small chips, smooth with a 500 Shapton and refine on a 1k.

For knife honing use a squirt bottle in place of spray bottle and hone in a plastic tray to catch runoff and swarf.

 

[Steve56]

I’m currently using soapy water - works fine.

 

[cotedupy]

I often use a fine India on kitchen knives to remove small chips, smooth with a 500 Shapton

That's interesting, cos I would have the SG500 as being a little coarser than a Fine India. Like Steve I'd put it around 600-800.

I did some quite extensive tests on it a while back, for a comparative review that I'm yet to write up, and for me the SG500 sits around the level of a Medium India.

(Or is it more that you're using the India for chip removal cos it's so hard it's basically never going to wear out or dish?)