I have read many posts on natural stones but?

[papi]

I have been researching reading, and watching videos. I hope no one will mind the same old subjects from a new person. I have tried to find answers by searching the site and online is never straightforward.

I read comments that it would be good to go to a natural stone instead of going forward with synthetic stones. I have the Shapton Pro 5k, 8k and 12k.

Jnats are out because they are way too much for my budget.
Escher Thuraigan stones are too expensive
The ILR slate stones are too controversial, even though it is tempting, but I will pass.

A surgical Arkansas stone is not too expensive.
A translucent Arkansas stone is getting up there, I have no idea which stone is best the surgical or the translucent.

the Belgian blue stones are an option and then of course a Conticlue is within reason but getting up there too.

Any sound advice on this age-old question of what would be a good way to go for a beginner?

I personally am concerned about the process of lapping, flattening, and or polishing the stones mentioned.

I am not in a hurry at all with this, because I am experimenting with compounds and still have a long way to go on my honing learning curve.
Thank you all as usual.

 

[Christian1212]

Surgical black arkansas is an awesome stone but you will want to use it with oil. I recommend sending a few razors out to a friend that will let you try out different edges.

Jnats can be had for cheap ish range but can be tricky.
Belgian blue would not finish a razor so I would skip that one
Coticule maybe but hard to find a good one (definitely try someone's coticule before getting one).
Look at Griffith shave goods, the Vermont slate or other naturals they Have might be tempting.

 

[papi]

Surgical black arkansas is an awesome stone but you will want to use it with oil. I recommend sending a few razors out to a friend that will let you try out different edges.

Jnats can be had for cheap ish range but can be tricky.
Belgian blue would not finish a razor so I would skip that one
Coticule maybe but hard to find a good one (definitely try someone's coticule before getting one).
Look at Griffith shave goods, the Vermont slate or other naturals they Have might be tempting

I am learning that getting a good finish stone is difficult to find, a hit-and-miss type of scenario.

 

[lightfoot]

How long have you been honing?


Are you currently at the point that you know for sure that the bevel is 100% set?

I only ask this to make a general estimate as to your experience level because this matters a lot in regards to your question.

 

[JPO]

In my opinion a good quality slate is a good gateway drug to get you hoocked, without spending too much
A small jnat can also be an affordable option.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

What makes the process and advice difficult is, a lot is about personal preference and what your skin and beard can handle. Some folks shave fine off synthetic and pasted edge, hell, folks shave off of Barber Hone edges for many years, at best a 6k edge.

Most find synthetic edges harsh, and a natural finisher can calm an aggressive synthetic edge nicely without giving up keenness. Slates can calm an edge, but most are much lower grit than 12k, so you give up some keenness. Going down the cheap slate road is a waste of time and money, yes you can get them to shave, but no where near a Jnat or Ark final finish.

Coticules are fussy, and even proponents admit finding a finisher is not easy. So, you likely will be buying a few until you find a “finisher”.

Most that go down this finishing road, end with hard Arks, Translucent or Blacks, (about the same finish once properly lapped and finished) especially if you buy vintage, or a Jnat.

You can buy a very good Jnat finisher, (Kopa, small stone) for under $100 that will deliver a lifetime of great shaves and dirt simple to learn. You do not need a 8 inch stone to finish a razor, especially off a 12k edge.

You can also buy a vintage Translucent slip for $20-60, much less at flea markets or antique shows, if you look. But you will need to lap the stone flat and smooth with loose Silicone Carbide and finish on wet and dry, a bit of work.

Many folks for hundreds of years shave off of a 6 or 8k edge finished with Chromium Oxide, (about 20-30K). You just need to ensure you are buying 100% pure Chrome Oxide, not a “Green Polishing Compound”.

Again, a lot depends on what your face can handle and the quality of your ability to produce a finished edge with synthetic stones.

 

[Seelector]

I'd stick with your current synth setup for a while before purchasing a natural stone. I've been SR shaving and honing for a little over a year now, and as my honing skills have improved, my desire to purchase a natural stone has gone down. My current setup is Shapton Glass 3k, SG8k, Naniwa 12k. For heavy bevel setting work I use lapping film leftover from when I first started, but I don't need to go that low very often any more.

My edges off the 12k are still getting better and better, so I figure I might as well get to the point where I'm continually producing great edges before jumping to nats. Right now I always get good edges and occasionally an amazing otherworldly edge. Clearly it's not the stones that are holding me back. I've also found that I could easily get by with a smaller stone. If I had purchased an ark 8 months ago like I almost did, I would have bought bigger than I needed. Figure out what works for you before spending the money.

 

[Empire straights]

I am learning that getting a good finish stone is difficult to find, a hit-and-miss type of scenario.

Watch bst threads. Guys from here usually always sell stones that are dressed and will give you an honest rundown on them in my experience.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

The other elephant in the room is stropping, learning to strop. Spend your money on a good quality strop with a good linen, preferably a flax linen.

No matter the edge, it will need to be maintained, stropping daily, a single errant stroke can roll an edge.

Stropping is often way under rated, especially stropping on flax linen. A quality 8 or 12k edge properly stropped can be a very comfortable shaving edge. The problem is most new honers lack proper stropping skills and or are stropping on cheap or contaminated strops.

Stropping is the last chance to perfect your shaving edge, before it touches your face it can make or break, literally the edge.

As said, learn to perfect the 12k edge. If occasionally you are getting noticeably stellar 12k edges, you know there is room for improvement and the FULL potential from that stone.

Try Jointing the edge once you feel you have a finished edge, strop on linen, re-lap the stone clean and reset the edge on a clean freshly lapped stone. It should only take 5-10 lite laps to bring the bevels back to meeting to a pristine edge.

Look straight down on the edge, there should be absolutely no shiny sparkles or reflections on the edge and your bevels should be near mirror.

Then don’t muck it up stropping.

 

[Wid]

Coticules are fussy, and even proponents admit finding a finisher is not easy.

Not sure I agree with this. I’ve had a few coticules in my day and have yet to find one that can’t be used to make a razor shave ready. A bit of a learning curve, yes.

 

[silverlifter]

In my opinion a good quality slate is a good gateway drug to get you hoocked, without spending too much

This. I started with a Black Shadow and it was an ideal first natural: easy to keep flat, forgiving to hone on, and still delivers wonderfully comfortable edges. Oh, and inexpensive and consistent compared to most other options.

You can experiment with the slurry stone, water, oil or (my favourite) lather. Great medium to ease into natural stones. Good luck!

 

[Acmemfg]

Some of my best ever edges are from a BBW and coticule. An epic finish can be had via a Vermont Green slate (Griffith Shaving) Ertan Suer of Rasoir Sabre uses this hone and achieves phenomenal results.

 

[life2short1971]

Look at the Pennsylvania blue in current honing threads and talk to @Matt O you find anything any better for the same money right now.

 

[papi]

How long have you been honing?


Are you currently at the point that you know for sure that the bevel is 100% set?

I only ask this to make a general estimate as to your experience level because this matters a lot in regards to your question.

I have honed a couple of razors now from chipped edge and rusted blades to a capable shave, not a great shave though but complete. I have not used compound yet but have some coming in. .1 and .3 micron powder and some IT paste. I think that I will improve an edge with some trial and error with that.

I worked a lot on the two razors over and over until I was able to shave with them. I will be the first to say that I have a lot to learn still.
I understand that prepping a natural stone can be challenging.

 

[life2short1971]

Look at the Pennsylvania blue in current honing threads and talk to @Matt O you won’t find anything any better for the same money right now.

Fixed that….

 

[lightfoot]

I have honed a couple of razors now from chipped edge and rusted blades to a capable shave, not a great shave though but complete. I have not used compound yet but have some coming in. .1 and .3 micron powder and some IT paste. I think that I will improve an edge with some trial and error with that.

I worked a lot on the two razors over and over until I was able to shave with them. I will be the first to say that I have a lot to learn still.
I understand that prepping a natural stone can be challenging.

The TI paste is pretty good.

Try to work on how to verify bevel setting integrity with 100% certainty sooner rather than later because those 97% bevels will skew one’s perception of the finishing stone of choice (whatever it may be).

The need for fundamentals is something that no one graduates beyond. 10 years later I’m still working on all the rudiments constantly.

I’ve been using the thumb pad test recently to check my bevels at 1k or 2k. I should have tripled down on this a long time ago…

 

[Gamma]

Pick a stone, lap it and hone on it.
You can ask 100 guys which way to go, and you'll get 400 answers.
Some like synths, some like pastes, some like films, some like naturals. Some mix it up.
There are a million opinions about all of this.
Its fine to ask the questions, but asking the same questions that have been asked a million times isn't going to bring new answers.
IF Jnats are too expensive, then don't bother; just look at what the wallet allows and roll with it.
No matter what you choose, there will be people who agree, and there will be people who think you should choose something else.
It's honing. Not rocket science or a popularity contest.
Buy within budget, lap, hone shave, be happy. Trust me, it works.

 

[papi]

Buy within budget, lap, hone shave, be happy. Trust me, it works.

I was trying to ask about what to buy when the time comes.
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Papi said:

Any sound advice on this age-old question of what would be a good way to go for a beginner?
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I was reading for hours and could not find the information that is on this thread. It was one big headache. Along with watching guys on videos who love to talk and shoot the bull and make motion pictures of themselves talking about their stones. That drives me crazy because of the opinions.

I think I received some good suggestions on this thread

Anyway, I get your points, thanks.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Budget concerns

N: Get a top dollar Jnat, a Dans True Hard/Translucent/Black Hard Ark, or a labeled Fuchs/Hohollenzern/Escher Thuringian

Y: go to next question

Are you set up to lap a stone/willing to go get a pane of glass and sandpaper/a cheap Diamond plate?

N:

Watch eBay/etc for a vintage translucent Hard Ark that isn't damaged.
or
Buy a cheaper "razor finisher" Jnat (Such as a Koppa from ChefknivestoGo or similar established vendors)

Y:

Watch eBay/etc for a good deal on a vintage coticule or if you're really lucky an underpriced BIN on a Thuri from a seller who doesn't know what they've got.

 

[papi]

What makes the process and advice difficult is, a lot is about personal preference and what your skin and beard can handle. Some folks shave fine off synthetic and pasted edge, hell, folks shave off of Barber Hone edges for many years, at best a 6k edge.

Most find synthetic edges harsh, and a natural finisher can calm an aggressive synthetic edge nicely without giving up keenness. Slates can calm an edge, but most are much lower grit than 12k, so you give up some keenness. Going down the cheap slate road is a waste of time and money, yes you can get them to shave, but no where near a Jnat or Ark final finish.

Coticules are fussy, and even proponents admit finding a finisher is not easy. So, you likely will be buying a few until you find a “finisher”.

Most that go down this finishing road, end with hard Arks, Translucent or Blacks, (about the same finish once properly lapped and finished) especially if you buy vintage, or a Jnat.

You can buy a very good Jnat finisher, (Kopa, small stone) for under $100 that will deliver a lifetime of great shaves and dirt simple to learn. You do not need a 8 inch stone to finish a razor, especially off a 12k edge.

You can also buy a vintage Translucent slip for $20-60, much less at flea markets or antique shows, if you look. But you will need to lap the stone flat and smooth with loose Silicone Carbide and finish on wet and dry, a bit of work.

Many folks for hundreds of years shave off of a 6 or 8k edge finished with Chromium Oxide, (about 20-30K). You just need to ensure you are buying 100% pure Chrome Oxide, not a “Green Polishing Compound”.

Again, a lot depends on what your face can handle and the quality of your ability to produce a finished edge with synthetic stones.

I had no idea about preference when it comes down to a honed edge. I thought it was either sharp or not. Shaving with a gem blade for many years, it gets dull and you get a new single-edge blade. I appreciate
Actually, I am glad to hear that I should be able to perfect an edge with what I have along with the paste that I will begin to learn with.
I have come a long way with stopping. I can strop without looking now but I go slow and easy with no accidents on nicking the leather.
I know firsthand that I am honing very much better. I accidentally touched the leather strop with my honed razor and it sliced a section of leather off that was so thin I was able to see through the leather. I said wow that is sharp. The only problem was as my one thread explained. I had to go back to a stone after one shave.
I was hesitant to ask what I asked on this thread, but it seems like I did get some good replies, without too much trouble. I will eventually talk to Matt and I am sure he can help also.
Like I said I am in a rush to spend money, but when I do the answers here give me a lot to fall back on.

I have many skills, in the trades for over 40 years. I can turn a pig's ear into a silk purse. I will eventually say that I have an excellent shaving edge on a straight razor, Lord willing.
Thanks again.

Thanks a million and I will keep trying all the suggestions and advice.