Thanks for the update. I know what you're going through as it happened to me, but keep trying and you will discover the issue.
Edwin Jagger DE89 Head Friction
- Thread starter ShavingByTheNumbers
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #22
It's frustrating, but I'll get through it. It's nice to have support from you guys. This is a great community. Thanks, olpski. 
+1 One day, you will have an a-ha!
Keep us posted if you uncover some variable or variation that solves the problem.
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- #25
Sorry to hear about your bad shave.
A bad shave usually means you're just one step closer to a great shave
There is such a thing as making your lather too thin, which can also cause friction (now that must sound very contradictory to my previous post where I recommended lots of water). If your lather is too thin where you didn't use enough soap/cream, it can mean a lack of lubricating ingredients in your final lather. Don't be afraid to use more soap or cream, therefore try loading for a little longer and its always better to have more lather left-over during your final pass. You really want to aim for a nice shiny looking lather and avoid making it very thin where it appears too airy or foamy (although looks can be deceiving with certain products). What I usually do is, once I think the lather looks good to go, I usually add a little bit more water just to make sure it will be slippery enough.
I've never shaved with a PAA OC, but I'm guessing the angle required on this razor might be a little different in comparison to your EJ. It is possible that you've become accustomed to using an angle and using a certain amount of pressure which worked great with your PAA OC - Maybe a slightly steeper angle worked fine with your PAA OC. If you are using the same angle with your EJ, which might be too steep and maybe you're using a little more pressure than needed, it is possible that you are unknowingly sweeping away any residual slickness left in your lather with your safety bar. I've always used a fairly shallow angle with my R89. Try decreasing your angle a little (lift your handle upwards) & ensure you're using only very light pressure. If your gut tells you that your blade might had contributed to your bad shave, then its best to listen to your gut.
I'm sure you'll get there. Keep us posted.
A bad shave usually means you're just one step closer to a great shave
There is such a thing as making your lather too thin, which can also cause friction (now that must sound very contradictory to my previous post where I recommended lots of water). If your lather is too thin where you didn't use enough soap/cream, it can mean a lack of lubricating ingredients in your final lather. Don't be afraid to use more soap or cream, therefore try loading for a little longer and its always better to have more lather left-over during your final pass. You really want to aim for a nice shiny looking lather and avoid making it very thin where it appears too airy or foamy (although looks can be deceiving with certain products). What I usually do is, once I think the lather looks good to go, I usually add a little bit more water just to make sure it will be slippery enough.
I've never shaved with a PAA OC, but I'm guessing the angle required on this razor might be a little different in comparison to your EJ. It is possible that you've become accustomed to using an angle and using a certain amount of pressure which worked great with your PAA OC - Maybe a slightly steeper angle worked fine with your PAA OC. If you are using the same angle with your EJ, which might be too steep and maybe you're using a little more pressure than needed, it is possible that you are unknowingly sweeping away any residual slickness left in your lather with your safety bar. I've always used a fairly shallow angle with my R89. Try decreasing your angle a little (lift your handle upwards) & ensure you're using only very light pressure. If your gut tells you that your blade might had contributed to your bad shave, then its best to listen to your gut.
I'm sure you'll get there. Keep us posted.
A few times I've been out of shave soap and used olive oil in stead and it worked just fine.
- Thread starter
- #28
I shaved with oil for years. Shave Secret. I also used cartridges. Before transitioning to DE shaving, I was experimenting with different oils (argan, fractionated coconut oil, etc.), not including olive oil. Like you, I'd use oil if I'd run out of shaving soap, but only in a pinch.
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- #29
Thanks, Volare. I've gained good experience over months with different soaps, but I'm open to the idea that I might not make lather as well as others. It's hard to judge. I load a lot of soap with small additions of water and stop based on the amount, not time. Yesterday's lather was too airy because I purposefully added much more water than I usually would, and I knew it, but I was pushing it based on the skepticism and feedback here. I ditched the Derby Extra and went with the Astra SP today. The lather today was L&L Grooming's Marshlands. I added more water than I normally would, but moderately so to stay away from thinnning out the soap like I did yesterday. (I know what you are talking about with adding a little extra water beyond the point when you think that lather looks good. I tend to do that, too, because lather loses water over time due to water evaporation.) Regarding angle and pressure, I continued to experiment with angle today. Experimentation with pressure is not really there because I'm already applying light pressure. With the Edwin Jagger, if I were to really apply pressure, I'd cut myself badly, especially above the lip. I'm trying to be gentle with it. Anyway, the result of the shave was not great, but at least it was better than yesterday. Friction was still there compared to what I'm used to with the PAA DOC Satin, sometimes badly, but overall, the friction was better than when I started with the EJ Kelvin. I'm getting irritation, too. The lather makes a difference, and so does angle. The flatter the razor is to the face, the less contact there is with the top cap and the less friction there is, probably related to leaving more residual slickness, as you talked about, but there is also a greater, more aggressive blade angle to the face, which I don't like.
My impression so far of the EJ Kelvin is not so good. It's such a beautiful razor, but I think that the head geometry is a problem for me---which I will eventually get into with a photo analysis---and the friction is noticeably greater than anything I experienced with the PAA DOC Satin, except earlier on when I made some bad lathers. I have to say, I have my issues with the PAA DOC Satin, but I'm now glad that I started with it rather than an Edwin Jagger. If I started with an Edwin Jagger, especially when I wasn't making lather like I am now, I might have given up on DE shaving before I really started. That would have been a shame.
My impression so far of the EJ Kelvin is not so good. It's such a beautiful razor, but I think that the head geometry is a problem for me---which I will eventually get into with a photo analysis---and the friction is noticeably greater than anything I experienced with the PAA DOC Satin, except earlier on when I made some bad lathers. I have to say, I have my issues with the PAA DOC Satin, but I'm now glad that I started with it rather than an Edwin Jagger. If I started with an Edwin Jagger, especially when I wasn't making lather like I am now, I might have given up on DE shaving before I really started. That would have been a shame.
I must admit, I'm in the same boat as Numbers with my DE89. It even had me wondering if there is a razor with a grooved or dimpled top cap. As long as there is lather on my face it's not a problem. However, if a subsequent stroke overlaps a previous stroke the top cap sticks to my skin. I've only had 2 shaves with the DE89 so we'll see. I don't have this issue with my other DEs. Also, it's crazy dry around here in the winter.
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- #31
Thanks for helping me think that I'm not crazy. I believe that the friction that I feel is there for fresh strokes, but I believe that what you wrote about going over the same spot is very important. I do that all the time. Friction is greater after the first stroke.
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- #33
No, not that I'm aware of. I hydrate my face before shaving as I load the brush and build the lather. I'd say that conditions are pretty normal at that point or my skin is on the drier side.You just inspired me to conduct a quick experiment to verify the difference between the dry top cap against dry skin versus the wet top cap against wet skin for both the Edwin Jagger Kelvin (with the EJ DE89 head) and the PAA DOC Satin. The skin I used was on the inside of my wrist, for convenience. Wetted surfaces involve different surface tension and energy. The dry top caps against dry skin had little friction. However, the wet top caps against wet skin had more friction. The PAA DOC Satin had a little more friction in wet conditions compared to dry conditions, but the EJ DE89 had A LOT MORE FRICTION, A LOT OF STICKING compared to dry conditions.
Test this out for yourself with whatever razors you have. I have confirmed to myself that, yes, indeed, the EJ DE89's smooth chrome surface is causing much more friction than the satin finish of the PAA DOC Satin.
You could try some teflon tape....
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- #35
Yes! I talked about tape like that earlier in the thread. Teflon or UHMW (Ultra High Molecular Weight) tape, tapes with low coefficients of friction, might work wonders. I already looked into buying some from the major online marketplace. I held off on buying some, though, because I wanted to give the DE89 a real chance. I wouldn't want to use tape on a regular basis, but I'm not completely against such a thing if the cost is reasonable. Actually, using a little UHMW of Teflon tape could make shaving less expensive and better if it allowed for less expensive, lower performing soaps to be used, offsetting the cost of the tape, while producing better shaves with more slickness, lower friction due to the tape. It's a fascinating idea!
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- #37
I've already had friction and sticking problems during shaving. The friction level varies, but sticking is really awful. I haven't run an experiment with good lather on my face and using the EJ without a blade. It wouldn't seem necessary. Fundamentally, the super smooth EJ top cap can produce much more friction than a rougher satin finish top cap. However, I believe that the differences in friction between a super smooth top cap and a rougher finished top cap depend on the skin. My guess is that guys with smoother skin will experience more friction differences, while guys with rougher skin might not notice any friction differences or might experience friction differences that are considered insignificant.
I have had the same problem with my R89. But I have solved it for the most part by:
1) using less pressure
2) using a shallower angle
3) making quicker strokes
4) using only the slickest soaps
I have also bought an ATT M1 which produces noticeably less friction due to the stainless steel milling. Keep trying and you will master the DE89. It is smoother than my ATT when I dual in on the right stuff.
1) using less pressure
2) using a shallower angle
3) making quicker strokes
4) using only the slickest soaps
I have also bought an ATT M1 which produces noticeably less friction due to the stainless steel milling. Keep trying and you will master the DE89. It is smoother than my ATT when I dual in on the right stuff.
- Thread starter
- #39
Thanks for the good advice. I'm trying to use as little pressure as possible. Shaving with the handle closer to the face also cuts down on friction, but it also results in a higher blade angle to the face, which increases aggression and decreases efficiency. I try to make quicker strokes. Also, I've been using high-quality soaps and I've been trying to find the slickest ones out there. All in all, the friction has been reduced since I started working with the EJ Kelvin, but it is still there, sometimes frustratingly so. It seems ridiculous to me to do so much adjusting and messing around for a razor that still gives me friction. The EJ's smooth chrome finish is a problem, and I'm willing to keep working with it, but if the friction sticks around, I'll either use it with low-friction tape or stop using it altogether.
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