Edwin Jagger DE89 Head Friction

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

I recently started using the Edwin Jagger Kelvin. It is a beautiful razor, but I was immediately disappointed by friction. My DE safety razor experience has been pretty much limited to months of use with the PAA DOC Satin, which is a "double open comb" design, open combs on the guard and the top cap. The friction difference is very significant. I searched B&B and found a couple of references to friction with the EJ DE89 head:

• "The extra friction just means the razor doesn't glide like it should. Other razors I have glide just fine." ([thread]321018[/thread])
• "However, the cap (not the blade) on the DE89 tends to get caught up on the skin it just shaved as the cap is now in contact with dry skin that was just shaved, requiring me to use a little more force to get the razor to move along." ([thread]295770[/thread])

The friction that I feel with the EJ head is noticeable throughout the entire shave, sometimes more and sometimes less, but it is there and definitely more than anything that I've experienced with the PAA DOC Satin.

I'm sure that it isn't a lather problem since I'm using great soaps with enough water to make great lather. I don't think that it's a blade problem since I'm using an Astra Superior Platinum. I don't think that it's an angle problem or pressure problem, but I admit that I knew that I was developing poor technique with the DOC because I had to apply a lot of pressure with it to compensate for its large negative blade exposure. I've been using light pressure with the EJ Kelvin from the start, and I'm getting closer shaves than with the PAA DOC Satin, but I still feel what I consider to be a lot of friction with the EJ Kelvin.

Is this normal? Am I now experiencing "normal" friction?

 

[TobyC]

I have experienced drag from smooth chrome caps, just use better soap.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

I have experienced drag from smooth chrome caps, just use better soap.

So far, I've used Barrister & Mann's Cheshire, their Latha unscented, and L&L Grooming's Marshlands with an Astra SP. Tomorrow, it's a fresh Derby Extra---to give that a try---with Stirling's Naked & Smooth. As far as I know based on my months of DE experience, I'm doing a good job with the lather. They are good soaps.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

I have experienced drag from smooth chrome caps, just use better soap.

Maybe the friction is because of the smooth chrome. It is a beautifully shiny razor. Is it time for an experiment? Has anyone tried reducing friction from a very smooth top cap by temporarily roughing the surface with the addition of blue painter's tape or masking tape? It's an interesting idea. I don't know how long the tape would hold under the wet conditions of shaving. I'll give it a try and report back. If this works, it could be a breakthrough!

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Maybe the friction is because of the smooth chrome. It is a beautifully shiny razor. Is it time for an experiment? Has anyone tried reducing friction from a very smooth top cap by temporarily roughing the surface with the addition of blue painter's tape or masking tape? It's an interesting idea. I don't know how long the tape would hold under the wet conditions of shaving. I'll give it a try and report back. If this works, it could be a breakthrough!

To follow up... I was looking online to see if anyone did or proposed this idea of adding tape to reduce friction, and I didn't find anything at B&B or in general. However, I found slippery (low-friction) tape that sounds like a great candidate. I don't know the water-resistance of it, but it otherwise sounds really good. I'm sure that there are other tapes out there, but the one that I quickly stumbled on is 5 mils (0.005 in. or 0.127 mm) thick. This got me thinking that if tape---either painter's, masking, low-friction, or something else---works to reduce friction, it would also reduce the blade exposure and the handle angle and increase the blade angle. That could be either good or bad, depending on the razor, the blade, and the desired performance.

 

[TobyC]

Petroleum jelly.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Petroleum jelly.

Wait. You're kidding, right?

 

[TobyC]

Wait. You're kidding, right?

It meets the requirements, slippery and thin.

 

[olpski]

This happened with my EJ when I would shave with hard water. If you rinse the blade in the sink, you get lots of cruddy, hard soap scum quickly build up on the cap. You don't get that with soft water.

Now recognizing you may not have soft water, just try rinsing the razor with fresh tap water every time versus dunking in the sink. It helps tremendously when I travel and stay in a hotel with hard water.

 

[TobyC]

I mean on the cap, not your face. However, I have been told that Crisco on your face will give you the best shave you can possibly have!

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

This happened with my EJ when I would shave with hard water. If you rinse the blade in the sink, you get lots of cruddy, hard soap scum quickly build up on the cap. You don't get that with soft water.

Now recognizing you may not have soft water, just try rinsing the razor with fresh tap water every time versus dunking in the sink. It helps tremendously when I travel and stay in a hotel with hard water.

Thanks for the thoughts. My water hardness is medium and I rinse the razor with fresh tap water every time. (I never dunk in the sink.) Also, the friction was noticeable from it's very first use, and after several shaves, the chrome was still looking good. I just cleaned the razor today before changing the blade and, frankly, the razor didn't even look like it needed to be cleaned.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

I mean on the cap, not your face. However, I have been told that Crisco on your face will give you the best shave you can possibly have!

Petroleum jelly and Crisco are interesting ideas, but wouldn't they wash off? The idea with some sort of low-friction tape is that it would withstand shaves and the cleaning up and drying of the razor after the shaves.

 

[TobyC]

Petroleum jelly and Crisco are interesting ideas, but wouldn't they wash off? The idea with some sort of low-friction tape is that it would withstand shaves and the cleaning up and drying of the razor after the shaves.

It was just a thought, I've never tried it.

Good soap and lather was the solution for me.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

It was just a thought, I've never tried it.

Good soap and lather was the solution for me.

I've never tried it, either. It's an interesting thought. I've tried other things, but they were natural, which I've been trying to stick with for the soaps.

I'm glad that good soap and lather worked for you. I could try adding more water to the lather, I guess, but my lather is good. I'm going to try the tape idea and report back on what happens.

 

[olpski]

If water is not the issue then agree with [MENTION=89729]TobyC[/MENTION] that a good soap/lather should work. If the lather is very dry this will happen. Also, try leaving a little water on the razor after a rinse which should help the lather with slickness.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

If water is not the issue then agree with @TobyC that a good soap/lather should work. If the lather is very dry this will happen. Also, try leaving a little water on the razor after a rinse which should help the lather with slickness.

I am using good soaps and I am making good lathers. The lather is not dry. It's not runny wet, either. It's good. Also, I often leave a little water on the razor after rinsing to help with slickness. I've been especially doing that now in trying to remedy the friction problem, but it hasn't helped much.

 

[Volare]

With many soaps and/or creams, you need to hit the nail right on the head with the correct amount water/product ratio. I just had a wonderful shave with the Muhle R89 (same head dimensions as the EJ89). No friction or skipping.

However, I did experience friction just last week like I haven't experienced since I had began wet shaving. This did not have anything to with the razor. I bowl lathered Euro Palmolive and I had probably only bowl lathered 3-4 times in the past 12 months, therefore I had almost forgotten how to bowl lather effectively and as a result, I just didn't have the correct product/water ratio. My lather simply needed much more water. Today, I had face lathered Proraso Green, where you need to load quite a bit of product and add lots of water to get that slippery lather (Using a different brush for different products can also make a difference).

Previous to using the Muhle R89, I was using the Merkur 41C (Open Comb). Lather can cling-on between the teeth of an OC, which does appear to provide the benefit of extra lubrication during your shave. Therefore, an OC can definitely feel more slippery as per your description, but I would not think the friction you are experiencing has anything to do with the chrome finish of your EJ Razor.

Also, once you pick-up a new tool, it will require a change in technique - therefore, I recommend you persevere with your EJ for at least a couple of months before using another razor. Once it has been dialed-in, I'm sure it will provide you with many wonderful shaves.

 

[olpski]

Darn, running out of thoughts. This happened to me but I only noticed it with Arko soap and the Omega Eucalyptus shaving cream (which I love but stopped using the Omega cream because nothing I did prevented the crud build-up and added friction).

Some have said that creams are more susceptible to the residue build up, but I am certain many here will advocate for many creams.

One more thought. Do you wash your face or shower before shaving? If you don't, maybe there's excessive oil on your face that the soap binds with and reduces friction.

Just for kicks, buy a bottle of distilled water and lather and rinse with it. It will set you back $1 and some added time, but it would eliminate the water as an issue.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Thanks, guys, for all of your thoughts and help.

[MENTION=101734]Volare[/MENTION]: I hear what you're saying about the right amount of water. I understand the skepticism here about my lather. Given the slickness that I got with the open comb of the PAA DOC Satin, and the friction with the EJ head using the same lathers, I'm sure that the PAA DOC Satin naturally produces less friction due to the OC and/or the satin, not perfectly smooth finish. Now that I'm using the EJ Kelvin with my usual lathers, I'm having friction problems, which makes people naturally suspect that my lather is deficient. Maybe it is. I didn't think so, but it sure sounds like I need to try adding even more water.

[MENTION=106540]olpski[/MENTION]: I like your idea of trying distilled water. My water is of medium hardness, but it's good to try different options to make shaves better. I haven't tried any shaving creams, just soaps so far. Maybe someday. As for washing my face or showering before shaving and oil on my skin, my skin is on the drier side and I sometimes shower before I shave. I fully hydrate my face before shaving with several rinses of water. If anything, I could use more oil on my face. I've found that shaving after I shower seems to help a little, but not much at all, probably because I don't get around to shaving until after well after I've moisturized.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

UPDATE...



I tried the experiment this morning with the EJ (Kelvin) top cap half covered with blue painter's tape. The tape held onto the top cap without any problem throughout the shave. When stroked against dry skin, the blue painter's tape on the top cap increased friction, but when stroked against wet skin during a shave, the tape seemed to decrease friction by just a little. The slippery (low-friction) tape that I mentioned earlier might work really well, but blue painter's tape didn't help enough to make me want to continue with it anymore.

Regarding lather quality, I used Stirling's Naked & Smooth and built the lather with much more water than I usually would. The lather was more voluminous with less thickness. It had more water than I prefer and it didn't provide the cushion that I wanted, but it did seem to cut down on friction. The friction was reduced, but it wasn't gone. Even with less friction, I had one of the worst shaves that I've had since starting DE shaving. The Derby Extra blade had something to do with that. The irritation was bad and I got a cut on the front of my chin that just wouldn't seal naturally and nicely. I haven't had a bad cut like that since I started wet shaving. It reminded me of cartridge shaving, which isn't good.

Tomorrow, I'll use the razor like normal with no tape, I'll use a fresh Astra SP, and I'll give more water in the lather another shot, but I'll use Barrister & Mann's Cheshire or L&L Grooming's Marshlands.