Edwin Jagger DE89 Head Friction

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

My friction issue with the EJ Kelvin (having the standard DE89 head) reminded me of the friction issue that I wrote about with the Dorco PL602. On September 7, 2016, I wrote about how I "experienced some noticeable friction and stick-slip issues" that I could not resolve with lather, angle, or pressure. I speculated about drying lather in the guard/bar, which was "unconfirmed", and I also theorized that "maybe" the light weight of the plastic razor had "more to do with it", but I just couldn't figure out what was going on.

I think that the friction and stick-slip issues that I previously experienced with the Dorco PL602 are similar to what I'm currently experiencing with the EJ Kelvin, both cases of friction and stick-slip being primarily due to the smooth surface of each top cap. The Dorco PL602 has a super smooth top cap, too, but it is plastic, as opposed to the super smooth chrome surface of Edwin Jagger's DE89 head.

I conducted the same quick friction experiment for the Dorco PL602 with dry and wet conditions that I wrote about earlier for the EJ Kelvin and the PAA DOC Satin. Bingo. The friction drastically increased with the Dorco PL602 under wet conditions on the skin, similar to the significant increase with the EJ head and very different from the slight increase with the textured surface of the PAA DOC Satin. This isn't coincidence. It's because of surface tension and energy.

It certainly seems to me that razors, or at least their top caps, should have textured, not perfectly smooth surfaces to reduce friction. I will probably study this issue further, but it would involve ordering Teflon or UHMW (Ultra High Molecular Weight) tape for sticking onto top caps. This could really be a breakthrough, offering a cost-effective, or cost-saving, means to reduce friction for friction-prone razors and soaps. Soaps and razors that might otherwise be avoided might become acceptable in this case.

 

[steffenapelz]

Thanks for the good advice. I'm trying to use as little pressure as possible. Shaving with the handle closer to the face also cuts down on friction, but it also results in a higher blade angle to the face, which increases aggression and decreases efficiency. I try to make quicker strokes. Also, I've been using high-quality soaps and I've been trying to find the slickest ones out there. All in all, the friction has been reduced since I started working with the EJ Kelvin, but it is still there, sometimes frustratingly so. It seems ridiculous to me to do so much adjusting and messing around for a razor that still gives me friction. The EJ's smooth chrome finish is a problem, and I'm willing to keep working with it, but if the friction sticks around, I'll either use it with low-friction tape or stop using it altogether.

Have you tried Mike's soaps? I find those to be the slickest for me. It is my go-to soap for the day of two after a rough shape. But I agree in that I have also not been able to completely remedy the sticking of the razor top cap.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Have you tried Mike's soaps? I find those to be the slickest for me. It is my go-to soap for the day of two after a rough shape. But I agree in that I have also not been able to completely remedy the sticking of the razor top cap.

No, I haven't tried Mike's yet, but it's in my list of soaps to try. Thanks for the recommendation. I'll get to Mike's eventually.

As for friction, it's not you, it's your razor. It's a materials issue! The good news is that maybe we can overcome the issue with a different material. I'm going to do some more research on Teflon or UHMW tape, and if it sounds like it might work, then I'll buy some and give it a try. If it works, it will be exciting!

 

[TobyC]

Rhinestone Stickers

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Rhinestone Stickers

Bedazzle it! Yes!

 

[mars]

I'm not trying to argue with you, because your experience is, well, your experience. It just strikes me as odd that you're having this issue. There is nothing odd about the design of the DE 89. The smooth chrome cap is nearly universal. What is it about this razor that is causing the issue? Do you have the same issue with Merkurs or other modern razors? What about vintage ones? I'm not exactly an expert on shaving or DE razors but it seems to me that if you have this issue with this razor that you'd have it with the vast majority of DE razors. Your other razor is the exception not the rule ( I think). If this was such a design flaw how have millions of men shaved with this design for the last 100 plus years? I'm not trying to be critical, I find this very interesting and would like to understand it better.

 

[TobyC]

I think the OP noticed it more than usual because he had been using a razor that glides more easily than most. Chrome caps do seem to cling to the skin more than other platings, and bare brass even when smooth and shiny doesn't seem to cling at all. Most 100 year old razors were nickel, gold, or silver, not chrome.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

[MENTION=5821]mars[/MENTION]: Thanks for your thoughts. I hear you. I thought it was weird, too. When I started using the EJ Kelvin, I was really surprised and disappointed in the friction and stick-slip that I was experiencing. I've been used to the PAA DOC Satin, which has an open comb top cap with a textured, satin surface. Later in this thread, I did some quick experiments and confirmed that the EJ top cap can produce much more friction on wet skin than the PAA DOC Satin. Also, I confirmed that the smooth plastic top cap of the Dorco PL602 similarly produces a lot of friction on wet skin compared to the PAA DOC Satin. In the past, I couldn't figure out why I was experiencing such friction and stick-slip issues with the Dorco PL602, so I quickly gave up on that inexpensive razor. I've theorized here that while there is POTENTIAL for much more friction from a smooth chrome top cap, what friction a guy experiences ACTUALLY DEPENDS ON HIS SKIN. Smooth skin with smooth chrome under wet conditions should produce much more friction than rougher skin with smooth chrome, which has some roughness there to prevent the friction from manifesting so badly. One guy might notice friction, while another guy might not notice a friction problem using the same setup.

[MENTION=89729]TobyC[/MENTION]: Thanks for the great info and support. It's nice to know that others experience some cling with chrome caps. I didn't know that smooth brass doesn't seem to cling at all! Cool! It's also interesting to know that most 100 year old razors were nickel, gold, or silver plated. Are any of those materials known to cling like chrome?

UPDATE: I ordered a roll of UHMW tape for experimentation with the material issue causing friction and stick-slip. Eventually, I'll do some experimenting and report back here and/or in a new thread.

 

[TobyC]

[MENTION=5821]mars[/MENTION]: Thanks for your thoughts. I hear you. I thought it was weird, too. When I started using the EJ Kelvin, I was really surprised and disappointed in the friction and stick-slip that I was experiencing. I've been used to the PAA DOC Satin, which has an open comb top cap with a textured, satin surface. Later in this thread, I did some quick experiments and confirmed that the EJ top cap can produce much more friction on wet skin than the PAA DOC Satin. Also, I confirmed that the smooth plastic top cap of the Dorco PL602 similarly produces a lot of friction on wet skin compared to the PAA DOC Satin. In the past, I couldn't figure out why I was experiencing such friction and stick-slip issues with the Dorco PL602, so I quickly gave up on that inexpensive razor. I've theorized here that while there is POTENTIAL for much more friction from a smooth chrome top cap, what friction a guy experiences ACTUALLY DEPENDS ON HIS SKIN. Smooth skin with smooth chrome under wet conditions should produce much more friction than rougher skin with smooth chrome, which has some roughness there to prevent the friction from manifesting so badly. One guy might notice friction, while another guy might not notice a friction problem using the same setup.

[MENTION=89729]TobyC[/MENTION]: Thanks for the great info and support. It's nice to know that others experience some cling with chrome caps. I didn't know that smooth brass doesn't seem to cling at all! Cool! It's also interesting to know that most 100 year old razors were nickel, gold, or silver plated. Are any of those materials known to cling like chrome?

UPDATE: I ordered a roll of UHMW tape for experimentation with the material issue causing friction and stick-slip. Eventually, I'll do some experimenting and report back here and/or in a new thread.

Chrome is the only one that I remember having a problem with, just use good soap/lather, and don't ride the cap.

 

[drwevil]

The dark chrome or whatever it is the Maggards website says chrome. But my V3 glides over my skin better than the shiny chrome Comoy ... tho that not exactly scientific as the are completely different designed razors. It's also slicker than the WCS razor I have too.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

So, it really is a YMMV matter based partly on your skin.

Interesting.

I don't have an basis for this and it's only a bias but I prefer nickel on razors to chrome. I think it looks better, and it is more traditional. Not that I wouldn't acquire a chromed razor (I have several), but I'd pick a nickel version over a chromed version.

My skin is smooth enough, but probably far from the smoothest, so I doubt it is a friction issue for me.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

So, it really is a YMMV matter based partly on your skin.

Interesting.

I don't have an basis for this and it's only a bias but I prefer nickel on razors to chrome. I think it looks better, and it is more traditional. Not that I wouldn't acquire a chromed razor (I have several), but I'd pick a nickel version over a chromed version.

My skin is smooth enough, but probably far from the smoothest, so I doubt it is a friction issue for me.

Happy shaves,

Jim

Maybe nickel works better, but I experienced a similar friction issue with smooth plastic as with smooth chrome, so I think that the material doesn't really matter. My feeling is that the smoother the skin and the smoother the razor surface (of the cap and even the guard), the more friction one can potentially experience.

 

[sw_]

My feeling is that the smoother the skin and the smoother the razor surface (of the cap and even the guard), the more friction one can potentially experience.

I second that. My polished stainless steel Mamba is about as tacky to the skin as the DE89. In terms of gliding, the matte Ikon X3 is still the best razor I've experienced. But since I'm not a fan of water-only-shaves, it's not such a big issue.

 

[iwan073]

This is a very interesting thread. I've shaved with a DE89 for 8 years and have never experienced this Friction you're talking about. It won't even stick if I take the blade out and pretend to shave with no lather. Is your face sticky for some reason?

I know right?!
Been using my Edwin Jagger DE89 “Barley” for years now and never experienced friction.

I really wonder if @ShavingByTheNumbers is using the right angle here.
Have you tried a different angle?

 

[MntnMan62]

I am using good soaps and I am making good lathers. The lather is not dry. It's not runny wet, either. It's good. Also, I often leave a little water on the razor after rinsing to help with slickness. I've been especially doing that now in trying to remedy the friction problem, but it hasn't helped much.

How would you describe the consistency of the lather? I always strive for a yogurt like consistency that has a sheen to it. I’ve noticed the type of friction you described when my lather has too much water in it. I’m not saying that your lather has too much water. But since you have only been at this a few months, I can say that It took me a pretty long time to perfect my lather making. It could be that you might be better off with an open comb razor. Maybe give some vintage razors a try such as the Gillette Old Type, New Improved and NEW. My preference is the Old Type because the head is nice and small and maneuverable and it gives me the best shave once I learned how to tame its aggressiveness. Good luck.

 

[sw_]

As for me, I only experience friction when there is (almost) no lather present. For instance, I'm sitting in the bathtub, I'm done with my head and face and think hey, let's just quickly remove these annoying black hairs on the inside of my upper arm. Just a splash of water on the skin, bam, friction.
Switching to OC won't do any good in this regard (I've been there) because most auf the friction is caused by the top cap. In fact, I'd consider friction from the safety bar as 'good' friction because it stretches the skin before the blade hits the stubble.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

I second that. My polished stainless steel Mamba is about as tacky to the skin as the DE89. In terms of gliding, the matte Ikon X3 is still the best razor I've experienced. But since I'm not a fan of water-only-shaves, it's not such a big issue.

That makes sense.

I know right?!
Been using my Edwin Jagger DE89 “Barley” for years now and never experienced friction.

I really wonder if @ShavingByTheNumbers is using the right angle here.
Have you tried a different angle?

How would you describe the consistency of the lather? I always strive for a yogurt like consistency that has a sheen to it. I’ve noticed the type of friction you described when my lather has too much water in it. I’m not saying that your lather has too much water. But since you have only been at this a few months, I can say that It took me a pretty long time to perfect my lather making. It could be that you might be better off with an open comb razor. Maybe give some vintage razors a try such as the Gillette Old Type, New Improved and NEW. My preference is the Old Type because the head is nice and small and maneuverable and it gives me the best shave once I learned how to tame its aggressiveness. Good luck.

As for me, I only experience friction when there is (almost) no lather present. For instance, I'm sitting in the bathtub, I'm done with my head and face and think hey, let's just quickly remove these annoying black hairs on the inside of my upper arm. Just a splash of water on the skin, bam, friction.
Switching to OC won't do any good in this regard (I've been there) because most auf the friction is caused by the top cap. In fact, I'd consider friction from the safety bar as 'good' friction because it stretches the skin before the blade hits the stubble.

Different angles didn't help. The fundamental friction was always there, but it was mitigated with better lather. As I talked about in my review and analysis of the EJ Kelvin (B&B URL), I learned that I got away with thicker, drier lather with the PAA DOC Satin. I didn't learn this until switching to the EJ Kelvin and asking for help here about what was going on. After DE shaving for about 1.5 years, I'm at the point of optimizing lather, which I've never seen anyone else do with measured masses and water-to-soap ratios. (I'll be publishing results in the near future for MWF.) These comments about friction remind me that, now, I'm used to experiencing how lather changes with water. It's normal for me now to experience how little water can make a lather have a lot of gliding friction and how a lot of water can make a lather have much less gliding friction but possibly some stick-slip friction. There's this transition in the mode of friction that happens. Since we all experience friction differently with different hardware and software, I've learned when evaluating lather to not just say that the best lather has the most slickness, but to focus on the quality of the shave. If the shave is better even with more friction, and I can't escape that determination, then that lather wins.

 

[BigJ]

With many soaps and/or creams, you need to hit the nail right on the head with the correct amount water/product ratio.

Also, once you pick-up a new tool, it will require a change in technique - therefore, I recommend you persevere with your EJ for at least a couple of months before using another razor. Once it has been dialed-in, I'm sure it will provide you with many wonderful shaves.

+1. My first thought. I would revisit all aspects of your lather, starting with a slick 'tallow' based soap and lots of water.

 

[steffenapelz]

I never was able to solve the puzzle of head friction with the DE89...I went to Fatip Gentile (and now OC) and ATT, and I have not looked back. They are FAR more aggressive and efficient, but provide much better shaving comfort for me.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

I never was able to solve the puzzle of head friction with the DE89...I went to Fatip Gentile (and now OC) and ATT, and I have not looked back. They are FAR more aggressive and efficient, but provide much better shaving comfort for me.

Thanks for the advice. I wasn't able to solve the problem, either, but I was able to mitigate it with much better lather. My review, which came after this thread, talks about that (B&B URL).