Connoisseurism

[Quaznoid]

Occasionally I meander into other forums on B&B. Coffee, cigars, pipesmoking, booze, guns, and, of course, shaving.

They’re all the same. Same types of folks posting about the same themes; only the context changes. Connoisseurs extolling the “finer” points of whatever it is. Whatever the thing was at its origin has with the passage of time and infliction of innumerable opinions and critiques been distorted into an unrecognizable something else. What started as a mere useful thing is inevitably converted into a complicated heirarchy of quality and virtue that is opaque to the uninitiated.

I suppose it’s a human trait. Perhaps 50 centuries ago a second variety of wine became available, it was compared to the old wine, an opinion was rendered and off we went. And it seems that the critique flows in one direction, toward a preference for the exotic, esoteric and expensive. The rarer it is, the more expensive, the more complex the process becomes the preferred variety. It is rare that something enjoyed by a majority of people is the connoisseur’s choice. Newcomers to a thing, an activity or whatever are inevitably influenced by the connoisseurs to follow their supposed expertise and the bias in favor of the more exotic, esoteric and expensive is reinforced.

And thus simple tastes, a preference for the ordinary, the readily obtainable, the inexpensive, the simple is derided, and the devotees of such belittled as unsophisticated rubes. And it always will be so.

To those who eschew connoisseurism, I take my hat off. Your courage keeps us grounded. Hold fast against the storm!

 

[EclipseRedRing]

I agree whilst conscious that I could be accused of the same thing myself. I enjoy all B&B forums, including the non shaving ones, and am in turns 1. Amazed at how deeply into the subjects many members immerse themselves, and 2. Amused at how complex once simple processes have become without any tangible benefit. I once tried to rank the forums in order of the absurdity of their most extreme members' geeky connoisseurship - shaving, coffee, pens, knives, watches, firearms, pipes, shoe shining... it soon became clear they are all just as bonkers as each other with some members being notable by their madness in multiple forums. I am engaged in a daily struggle not to become one of them

 

[Quaznoid]

I agree whilst conscious that I could be accused of the same thing myself. I enjoy all B&B forums, including the non shaving ones, and am in turns 1. Amazed at how deeply into the subjects many members immerse themselves, and 2. Amused at how complex once simple processes have become without any tangible benefit. I once tried to rank the forums in order of the absurdity of their most extreme members' geeky connoisseurship - shaving, coffee, pens, knives, watches, firearms, pipes, shoe shining... it soon became clear they are all just as bonkers as each other with some members being notable by their madness in multiple forums. I am engaged in a daily struggle not to become one of them

Same here

 

[BigJ]

Great thread!

Like many on this forum (I expect), I struggle to remain a ‘user’ of ‘fine tools’ rather than a connoisseur!!

But the line between these distinctions is likely in the eye of the beholder.

 

[luvmysuper]

Human nature. Some dig deep into a particular interest, and others flit from topic to topic like butterflies.
Whether people are on a forum or not, the behavior is similar.
It's just that a forum provides the self serving justification that you aren't the only weirdo so drilled down into any given activity.

 

[DesertIguana]

My Retire Firefighter/Paramedic is that guy. The one who is on quest for knowledge about anything he does, or enjoys. He recently went to Nicaragua to learn all about Cigar Production, Blending & Aging Tobacco. U-tube has all the info, but he wanted to see first hand.

 

[brucered]

The bread and butter of B&B knowledge is Shaving. If you really want to dive deep into the sub forum topics, external forums will go so deep you'll never get out and may drive you crazy.

I consider the Sub Forums a "one stop option" for other interests and people who don't want to be members of multiple forums on a variety of interests and still hang out with the same group of members. The external forums on those topics are where they really start to dive deep into the material, most times too deep for me.

When forums were first popping up, I was on a BBQ forum as well as an Audio forum. The discussions got so complex and over my head, I stopped visiting when I found B&B. I still use them for research purposes sometimes.

The same concept applies to other forums. I am an active member on a Toyota Tundra forum. They have subforum and I've even seen "shaving" discussions but the discussions are usually pretty tame. No one is discussing using a spray bottle mister to hydrate the lather, whether to use RO or Distilled water and should they wipe the blade with baby oil between uses.

 

[AshleyC]

My Dad's philosophy on buying things was simple. Buy the best you can afford. My Mom's philosophy is more shaped by the lingering effects of The Great Depression on her parents, my grandparents. Buy cheap. Buy "good enough".

I can almost hear the disapproval in her mind when I buy new shoes at Redwing, rather than at Walmart. I can see Dad, wherever he is now, nodding in approval. And Dad didn't mind so much if other people noticed his gear was above average.

I met up with him once after a long period of not seeing him. I wore a new B-2 bomber jacket from US Wings. As I approached him on the sidewalk, after a long absence, his first words to me were, "About $500?"

I immediately knew he meant that magnificent jacket. "Yeah, about $500."

I take after my Dad, obviously.

But I don't think I put on airs about anything here.

 

[DesertIguana]

I tend to buy stuff that works, s not the HIGH PRICED DESIGNER Brands, that spend significant money on advertising. Honestly if I need a tool for a job that will bet used infrequently I try and barrow. Or but from Knockoff Heaven, Harbor Freight.

 

[Multum in parvo]

Interest in a topic doesn’t necessarily has to lead to elitist or snobist opinions and if you can control the urge to preach the gospel the conversations should be lighthearted and appreciative. Caveat I’m not sure if this holds true for the Hi-Fi guys

I love mechanical watches, doesn’t matter if it is a 150 bucks Asian piece or five digits Swiss marvel, all tick along amicably.

I used to collect pocket knives, again a 5 dollar flea market antique or a fancy Microtech all get a ride in my pocket and get equally well used.

Razors, Yuma to Aristocrat - both give excellent shaves

Soap, Arko to Artisanal - if it works it works

If you are passionate and look for quality results, price and status should play second fiddle.

 

[gpjoe]

Audio is the worst.

Guys (some) will swear that changing the power cord from a two dollar computer-style cord to a $1500 (real cost for 3ft) custom cord made from puppy tears and unicorn poop will noticeably improve the sonic quality of the output from their amplifier...forget about the MILES of cheap aluminum cable supplying their main.

One outfit even sold tiny bottles of a solution (like green nail polish) that you could brush onto the solid state components to improve the output.

Of course if you disagreed you were shunned as a mere mortal, and lacking their "golden ears".

For me, the trick is identifying where to draw the line. I admit to often being taken up by the madness, but I firmly believe in diminishing returns...and like to believe I'm smarter than Barnum.

 

[Slapo]

Interest in a topic doesn’t necessarily has to lead to elitist or snobist opinions and if you can control the urge to preach the gospel the conversations should be lighthearted and appreciative. Caveat I’m not sure if this holds true for the Hi-Fi guys
...
If you are passionate and look for quality results, price and status should play second fiddle.

I was going to post something similar, but your wording is more eloquent.
Having said that, I don't think pricier razors yield better results necessarily. Then again, "better results" or "quality results" will vary by one's criteria to some extent.
I have had decent shaves with razors as cheap as £0.99 (one of the plastic razors with a hinge), although I didn't have much confidence in them lasting very long.

In my case, I like having a variety of razors because I just appreciate the variety and the differences between the razors I have. If I don't, I sell them on or give them away.
I've seen others do similar things.

I have set price boundaries for my purchases (and I'm not terribly into soaps or brushes), but I've also tried razors as expensive as the Tedalus Velocity One in passarounds.
The opportunity to have been able to try expensive ones was one of the things that helped me stay in the below ~£100 bracket, with one exception.

I also like frankenrazors, and having a variety of razors to combine parts of is a perk of having bought a good few razors of different designs.

 

[mcee_sharp]

Audio is the worst.

Guys (some) will swear that changing the power cord from a two dollar computer-style cord to a $1500 (real cost for 3ft) custom cord made from puppy tears and unicorn poop will noticeably improve the sonic quality of the output from their amplifier...forget about the MILES of cheap aluminum cable supplying their main.

One outfit even sold tiny bottles of a solution (like green nail polish) that you could brush onto the solid state components to improve the output.

Of course if you disagreed you were shunned as a mere mortal, and lacking their "golden ears".

For me, the trick is identifying where to draw the line. I admit to often being taken up by the madness, but I firmly believe in diminishing returns...and like to believe I'm smarter than Barnum.

I think that in between "game changing" technology that the law of diminishing returns applies. I think for a lot of the audio stuff, as one example, the science may check out, but the difference is likely imperceptible - a placebo effect that happens to have solid, but tiny roots (?).

I wonder how many of these imperceptible modifications, working in concert (sorry couldn't help myself), it takes to add up to something marginally perceptible?

 

[Slapo]

Audio is the worst.

Guys (some) will swear that changing the power cord from a two dollar computer-style cord to a $1500 (real cost for 3ft) custom cord made from puppy tears and unicorn poop will noticeably improve the sonic quality of the output from their amplifier...forget about the MILES of cheap aluminum cable supplying their main.

One outfit even sold tiny bottles of a solution (like green nail polish) that you could brush onto the solid state components to improve the output.

Of course if you disagreed you were shunned as a mere mortal, and lacking their "golden ears".

For me, the trick is identifying where to draw the line. I admit to often being taken up by the madness, but I firmly believe in diminishing returns...and like to believe I'm smarter than Barnum.

I think there's probably more snake oil in audio than there is in most other rabbitholes/addictions.
There's a few reasons for it that I'm sure play a role, and surely a bunch I'm unaware of, but I think you've hit the nail on the head.

I agree that drawing the line is the sensible thing to do... in any hobby/obsession.

 

[musicman1951]

And thus simple tastes, a preference for the ordinary, the readily obtainable, the inexpensive, the simple is derided, and the devotees of such belittled as unsophisticated rubes. And it always will be so.

con·nois·seur:
an expert judge in matters of taste.
"a connoisseur of music"

First - and most important to me - I have not read posts that say or imply that anyone was belittled as an unsophisticated rube. I don't insist that no such implication exists anywhere on the forum - I have not read every single post here - but I have not read one. Is it possible that a choice to be less sophisticated on a particular topic might lead one to "lend" such an attitude to other posters?

Secondly, I do hope we have not reached a point in our society where being an expert in any subject is something to be ridiculed (you see how I "lent" you that attitude?). There are many reasons I'm not an expert on many subjects, including: a lack of interest, a lack of talent (I'm not mechanical, so I do no motor repairs - big or small), a lack of time (it takes a considerable investment of time - and usually money - to become an expert in any field), a lack of money (I'd like to learn how to fly and buy myself a plane, but it's not in the budget), and that's just the tip of the iceberg off the top of my head.

I suggest we all have levels of expertise/sophistication/interests in many different subjects. I am not a wine expert. I've gone to quite a few wine tastings and have a pretty good idea of what I like, but I've never had a $75 bottle of wine, let alone a $4,000 bottle. I simply don't have the inclination to become an expert. I don't feel threatened or belittled by people who do have that inclination - I buy what I like and enjoy it. It's not a contest. I usually spend around $25 for my average bottle. You spend $100, or $8 - what do I care? I don't want to spend $100 and I don't generally enjoy $8 wine, I am uninfluenced physically or psychologically by either choice that works for you. Am I a little jealous I'm not a wine expert? Sure, I want to know everything - but I don't have that kind of time left.

So let's sing the praises of the man who likes to get the job done with the cheapest tools, and the man that gets the job done with more expensive tools. It's about finding joy in the task. But let's not celebrate mediocrity like it belongs on a pedestal, a doctrine to be worshiped. Expertise should never be denigrated. When I call the plumber I want him/her to be an expert, a connoisseur of all things plumbing - tools, techniques, etc. I celebrate expertise. I'm an educator and my fondest wish is that learning becomes everyone's goal.

 

[Quaznoid]

con·nois·seur:
an expert judge in matters of taste.
"a connoisseur of music"

First - and most important to me - I have not read posts that say or imply that anyone was belittled as an unsophisticated rube. I don't insist that no such implication exists anywhere on the forum - I have not read every single post here - but I have not read one. Is it possible that a choice to be less sophisticated on a particular topic might lead one to "lend" such an attitude to other posters?

Secondly, I do hope we have not reached a point in our society where being an expert in any subject is something to be ridiculed (you see how I "lent" you that attitude?). There are many reasons I'm not an expert on many subjects, including: a lack of interest, a lack of talent (I'm not mechanical, so I do no motor repairs - big or small), a lack of time (it takes a considerable investment of time - and usually money - to become an expert in any field), a lack of money (I'd like to learn how to fly and buy myself a plane, but it's not in the budget), and that's just the tip of the iceberg off the top of my head.

I suggest we all have levels of expertise/sophistication/interests in many different subjects. I am not a wine expert. I've gone to quite a few wine tastings and have a pretty good idea of what I like, but I've never had a $75 bottle of wine, let alone a $4,000 bottle. I simply don't have the inclination to become an expert. I don't feel threatened or belittled by people who do have that inclination - I buy what I like and enjoy it. It's not a contest. I usually spend around $25 for my average bottle. You spend $100, or $8 - what do I care? I don't want to spend $100 and I don't generally enjoy $8 wine, I am uninfluenced physically or psychologically by either choice that works for you. Am I a little jealous I'm not a wine expert? Sure, I want to know everything - but I don't have that kind of time left.

So let's sing the praises of the man who likes to get the job done with the cheapest tools, and the man that gets the job done with more expensive tools. It's about finding joy in the task. But let's not celebrate mediocrity like it belongs on a pedestal, a doctrine to be worshiped. Expertise should never be denigrated. When I call the plumber I want him/her to be an expert, a connoisseur of all things plumbing - tools, techniques, etc. I celebrate expertise. I'm an educator and my fondest wish is that learning becomes everyone's goal.

I don’t disagree. Your take depends upon a specific definition of “connoisseur” that is somewhat different than my usage. Of course I value expertise. There is expertise in plumbing, but is there expertise in wine or cigars or music? There are preferences, yes, there is “taste”, whatever that is, but there is no expertise. And yet there are connoisseurs.

 

[Slapo]

I think that in between "game changing" technology that the law of diminishing returns applies. I think for a lot of the audio stuff, as one example, the science may check out, but the difference is likely imperceptible - a placebo effect that happens to have solid, but tiny roots (?).

I wonder how many of these imperceptible modifications, working in concert (sorry couldn't help myself), it takes to add up to something marginally perceptible?

I think one of the issues with audio is that people will often put marketing and technology over implementation, and, IMO, implementation is really what matters.

 

[Mojo88]

I don’t trust commercial advertising or news for that matter. I try to research items or information by people that have actually used a product or experienced something. As a for instance I have a friend that lives in wine country, I ask him where to go and where to stay in his area. Another friend travels extensively and I can ask the condition of a specific state or city with his unbiased view.

On this forum you can find different options that are based upon the actual use of what is being discussed. Of course there are varied opinions, however the reviews are based in fact and not a monetary gain of a corporation.

I have purchased shaving gear, tools, guns, clothes and shoes based on reviews that I have read on this forum. It’s in part why I have been here as a contributor and stayed on the forum this long.

Are we connoisseurs on this forum or are we a group of people that don’t accept what is being peddled by the majority? I would say a little of both.

 

[brucered]

I think one of the issues with audio is that people will often put marketing and technology over implementation, and, IMO, implementation is really what matters.

I found the audio forum was becoming too statistical for me. Ohms, impedances, wattage, frequencies and I never took the time to learn any of it. All numbers run through a PC program to show and prove something sounded better.

All the while, no human ear, let alone a 50y olds ears can tell the difference played on a turntable in the living room, with house noises, external noises from outside the house etc.

I never got deep into it and I'm glad I didn't. I slap a record on my turntable and just enjoy it for what it is. I've been a member of AudioKarma since 2006. 95% of my 700 posts were in the first couple years when setting up the tables I still use.

 

[Quaznoid]

I don’t trust commercial advertising or news for that matter. I try to research items or information by people that have actually used a product or experienced something. As a for instance I have a friend that lives in wine country, I ask him where to go and where to stay in his area. Another friend travels extensively and I can ask the condition of a specific state or city with his unbiased view.

On this forum you can find different options that are based upon the actual use of what is being discussed. Of course there are varied opinions, however the reviews are based in fact and not a monetary gain of a corporation.

I have purchased shaving gear, tools, guns, clothes and shoes based on reviews that I have read on this forum. It’s in part why I have been here as a contributor and stayed on the forum this long.

Don’t misunderstand what I’m saying. There’s nothing wrong with following recommendations. It’s not necessarily what you buy, it’s why you buy it that interests me.