Marty which one are you using to look at the cutting edge to ensure set bevel, is it the carson?
Arkansas Finish - Wanting a sharper edge
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Is your black from best their "Surgical Black"?
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- #43
I'm not sure. I got their Soft/Black Combi stone and it didn't mention anything Surgical. All the other black stones on the site mentions surgical but the combination doesn't. I asked them over email and over the phone but no response. Their stones have been good but the customer service seems off.
Yes, I like the Carson Micro Brite 60/100x just lay the scope on the spine and centered on the bevel and focus. Or straight on the edge.
I also like a cheap 60x lighted Led scope that sells for $2-3. Those are good for a quick look. They are cheaper than the batteries, so I buy them by the bunch.
These are great for looking straight down on the edge. You don’t even need a scope just look straight down on the edge with a strong light behind you. Any reflection is where the bevels are not meeting.
You will need magnification (more is more better) to see the bevels and find out why the bevels are not meeting, more honing, chip, crack, any blade defect or deep stria.
You want a Hard Black, not the soft. Two different animals.
I also like a cheap 60x lighted Led scope that sells for $2-3. Those are good for a quick look. They are cheaper than the batteries, so I buy them by the bunch.
These are great for looking straight down on the edge. You don’t even need a scope just look straight down on the edge with a strong light behind you. Any reflection is where the bevels are not meeting.
You will need magnification (more is more better) to see the bevels and find out why the bevels are not meeting, more honing, chip, crack, any blade defect or deep stria.
You want a Hard Black, not the soft. Two different animals.
Sounds like it's not from their description. I would question that black being a finisher.
Arkansas Sharpening Stone
The Arkansas sharpening stone is popular with knife owners, chefs, craftsmen, sportsmen and butchers. Arkansas sharpening stones will sharpen all knives and tools and are the most popular sharpening stone worldwide. Choose from our wide selection of Arka
Combo-"the Black Arkansas is typically dark gray to black"
Surgical-"They are pure black in color and smooth as glass right out of the box."
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- #46
It may not be surgical but it still seems very fine to the touch. When I honed on it after my hard Ark, there was a noticeable difference in the sound and feel.Sounds like it's not from their description. I would question that black being a finisher.
Arkansas Sharpening Stone
The Arkansas sharpening stone is popular with knife owners, chefs, craftsmen, sportsmen and butchers. Arkansas sharpening stones will sharpen all knives and tools and are the most popular sharpening stone worldwide. Choose from our wide selection of Arkawww.bestsharpeningstones.com
Combo-"the Black Arkansas is typically dark gray to black"
Surgical-"They are pure black in color and smooth as glass right out of the box."
If you put it under 1k grit and burnish it you'll be able to shave off it with the right touch. I've had decent(not good) shaves off washitas with a very careful and light touch and lots of spine leading strokes. I don't usually burnish true hard Arks but if you got one that's softer than you want you can make it a razor stone with the right finish and touch. You don't really use any pressure with Arks and a razor so you shouldn't ever really change the surface unless it clogs. Even then it'll just get finer. If you can yeah yourself to get a shaving edge out of a newer "hard ark" you'll be able to hone on most anything.
Is the Best black ark a Dunston?
I don't know but it kind of sounds like it.
I don't know but it kind of sounds like it.
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- #49
At the Best's site, their mounted Black Ark doesn't say surgical but on the description it says, 'The Black Arkansas stone mounted on the wood block is the same quality stone as the one offered in the wood boxes.'
Probably more of a terminology issue. I don't think their Black Ark is a Dunston..
The Combi stone says Black Ark. The mounted stone is a Black Ark. The mounted one is same quality as one offered in wood box (Surgical)... Maybe they're all surgical? I just think they offer one type of Black whether it's surgical or not.
Probably more of a terminology issue. I don't think their Black Ark is a Dunston..
The Combi stone says Black Ark. The mounted stone is a Black Ark. The mounted one is same quality as one offered in wood box (Surgical)... Maybe they're all surgical? I just think they offer one type of Black whether it's surgical or not.
- Thread starter
- #50
Anywho, I'm just excited to try the Ark finishes again. So far, my best results has been the Shapton synthetic route to 12K and finish on the finer Arks about 150-200 laps. That's been giving me smooth and sharp feel.
I got several more straights coming in that I need to clean up so I'll be waiting patiently for those. I already honed up 4 of my straights so my hands are a bit antsy at the moment to hone more haha.
I got several more straights coming in that I need to clean up so I'll be waiting patiently for those. I already honed up 4 of my straights so my hands are a bit antsy at the moment to hone more haha.
Most sharpness is developed prior to the finishing stage.
If an edge from a high quality translucent Ark is not 'sharp enough' - I'd venture to say that the blade's ground work wasn't done sufficiently. No one ever wants to hear that their bevel work isn't 100% but after doing this for a long-enough while, on many many stones, Arks included - I'll say that a properly honed razor finished correctly on an Ark is a force to be reckoned with. If that edge falls short, I'll say it's not the stones fault. Many of the smoothest and keenest edges I've experienced came off a super dense Ark. Ground work has to be impeccable though.
Honestly, never found soft arks to be the bees-knees for midrange work on razors. Too easy to blunt the apex, and/or leave deep rogue striations. I won't say they won't work, 'cause I have used them successfully, but quality synthetics are a better choice for me in this arena. I usually use a 1.5k followed by a 5k. Sometimes 1.5k, 4k, 6k.
As noted above, accurately so, a Trans Ark, or equivalent, needs to see a very well developed edge. The surface of that stone needs to be near perfect too; dead flat on every axis, I check 8 angles. And with uniform texture all across. Someone wrote "Garbage in Garbage out" - this also means "Meh in and Meh out. But it does not guaranteed
Normally, I won't hone on synths to 12k before going to a natural stone, but with Arks I will do that, and possibly visit an Escher after the 12k, before the Ark. I might jump from Snow White or Fuji to the Escher.
My bevel work is always pushed to the limit, to the point where I can shave off the 1.5k. It all starts there.
Most of the time, sharpness complaints go hand in hand with needing to enhance the early work, not so much the finishing work.
If an edge from a high quality translucent Ark is not 'sharp enough' - I'd venture to say that the blade's ground work wasn't done sufficiently. No one ever wants to hear that their bevel work isn't 100% but after doing this for a long-enough while, on many many stones, Arks included - I'll say that a properly honed razor finished correctly on an Ark is a force to be reckoned with. If that edge falls short, I'll say it's not the stones fault. Many of the smoothest and keenest edges I've experienced came off a super dense Ark. Ground work has to be impeccable though.
Honestly, never found soft arks to be the bees-knees for midrange work on razors. Too easy to blunt the apex, and/or leave deep rogue striations. I won't say they won't work, 'cause I have used them successfully, but quality synthetics are a better choice for me in this arena. I usually use a 1.5k followed by a 5k. Sometimes 1.5k, 4k, 6k.
As noted above, accurately so, a Trans Ark, or equivalent, needs to see a very well developed edge. The surface of that stone needs to be near perfect too; dead flat on every axis, I check 8 angles. And with uniform texture all across. Someone wrote "Garbage in Garbage out" - this also means "Meh in and Meh out. But it does not guaranteed
Normally, I won't hone on synths to 12k before going to a natural stone, but with Arks I will do that, and possibly visit an Escher after the 12k, before the Ark. I might jump from Snow White or Fuji to the Escher.
My bevel work is always pushed to the limit, to the point where I can shave off the 1.5k. It all starts there.
Most of the time, sharpness complaints go hand in hand with needing to enhance the early work, not so much the finishing work.
- Thread starter
- #52
Thanks. I definitely have a lot to work to set the bevel correctly. I've been using the Shapton 1.5K to work on the bevel but hard to tell if it's set at 100%. Also, I don't want to remove too much metal at the earlier stage.
I will say, removing the Soft Ark from the progression helped reduce down a lot of the bigger scratches and seemed to improve the edge. I got couple decent edges so far so I'm planning focus more on the bevel set before worrying about the finish.
A few things. You have been given excellent advice from a few here. Garbage (or meh) in... garbage (or meh) out. You can't skimp out on bevel set it has to be done right. I also agree that an edge has to basically be uniformly shave ready before it ever goes to a black or trans ark. You can't leave a a little edge refinement left thinking that it's so close that the finisher will sort it out. A finishing ark will not sort out any needed edge refinement.
As others have said and you seem to have found, Arks are known as oil stones for a reason. Some report good results with water and dish detergent... but the general consensus is arks need oil. It's what I have always used, and it has always worked. I do have a soft Ark bench hone that I sharpen chisels and knives with that I use saliva on in a hurry... but that's for broad wood chisels and pocket knives. Any serious work like a razor, plane blade, or detail chisels and gouges and I bring out the nice bench stones and use oil.
Lastly. You mentioned 150 laps and you felt an improvement. You can probably triple that and keep noticing improvement. I've found 300-400 to be suitable on my black ark. Unless it's harder steel then I need more. Even then, I notice my edge still improves the first 5 shave/strop cycles. Arks have a reputation of being slow. That reputation is well deserved. One gentleman's bit of advice is go until you think it's good, then triple that for an ark. That's probably about right in my experience.
I just started using hard Arks in the last few months, and it was easy. Now I realize it was easy because I was taking edges that I'd already been shaving with, and re-finishing them on a hard Ark.
That’s what I do. I’ll get the razor to where it’s shaving nicely with a Coti or Thuri and then rev it up which Arkansas touch ups. To me the Ark is something like a post finisher. I’ll keep going until I max it out on the matt side and then move over to the burnished side.
I do the same. The coticule edge just needs a little help some times. Coticules should be backed with a surgical black
A water cooled tile saw would probably remove the slate backing quite easy.
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Or you could just glue the Ark onto the slate.
You would have to come to grips with losing one useful side of the Ark though.
