Arkansas Finish - Wanting a sharper edge

[Slash McCoy]

I'm pretty new to honing and I've taken an interest in bunch of Arkansas stones. I started off with Soft and Hard Arks but quickly realized that they weren't going to be any finishers. So I bought a Translucent and Black Ark from bestsharpeningstones and I'm currently working with them.

I've tried two edges with the Translucent and Black. One going from Shapton 1.5K, Soft/Hard Ark, Shapton 8K, and then Trans. Another the same but add Shapton 12K and the Black.

The one edge after 8K felt like a more comfortable 8K feel but still tuggy. One after the 12K, felt like the 12K edge but more tuggy. I'm still looking for that sharp keen edge that is comfortable on the skin with the Arks.

My honing time with the Arks are around 30min - 1hr. I don't count laps because I heard there's no point doing it with the Arks. Also, I hone with water or water + lather. I thought about oil but didn't want to make the fingers more slippery during honing.

I'd be happy to hear any tips or advices from those getting good keen edges from Arks. Or your experience with these finishing stones.

Oil is the most commonly used honing fluid with arks. It provides a much needed buffer to keep scratch size down and leave a more consistent and polished surface on the bevel. Soap or glycerine solutions work, sort of, but oil is clearly the better choice. It doesn't break down and change viscosity on you, and you can select your oil to give the results that you want. Thicker oil, more buffering and so shallower scratches but slower action. Thinner oil, vicey versey.

It must be remembered that very hard arks essentially do not slurry and they do not work by the slurry effect. They are more like an extremely fine file. When freshly lapped, they cut more coarsely, as determined by the abrasive used to lap the stone. After considerable use, the surface of the stone gets worn or burnished and so the cut is finer and slower. This is where you want your super hard Arkansas finishers. Luckily they are so hard that lapping is not frequently needed. You can speed up the burnishing of a freshly lapped Arkie by honing a large SS chef knife or similar, with significant pressure and a thin oil. A progression of lapping film might also give you a head start on that.

I nearly always hone in hand rather than on a bench. If you hone in hand, you will most likely want to glue a wood block to the bottom of the stone, to keep your fingers out of the path of the razor. Many come with a wooden box that can double as a block or holder but you may want to add some more material to elevate the stone a bit more.

 

[Timeclo]

So the razor that's been having issue is my Geneva Cutlery one. I might've made some deep scratches with the Soft Ark and that might be the reason why the shaves have been rough. It's cutting easily through my arm hair but it still gives a slight tugging feel and doesn't glide through the hair.

My plan is to reset the bevel on the synthetic route and finish off with the Translucent Ark. I think skipping the Soft Ark will help with a finer edge without the scratches and finish it with the Trans to tame the edge a bit. Thanks for all the feedback yall.

 

[Slash McCoy]

So the razor that's been having issue is my Geneva Cutlery one. I might've made some deep scratches with the Soft Ark and that might be the reason why the shaves have been rough. It's cutting easily through my arm hair but it still gives a slight tugging feel and doesn't glide through the hair.

My plan is to reset the bevel on the synthetic route and finish off with the Translucent Ark. I think skipping the Soft Ark will help with a finer edge without the scratches and finish it with the Trans to tame the edge a bit. Thanks for all the feedback yall.

A soft to hard Ark can be good for bevel setting, especially if you raise a slurry (those softer stones will grudgingly give up a slurry if you are insistent) and if you want to stay with naturals you can use a coti or bbw with dilucot method to clean up. Then clear water only on the coticule or else lather or dish soap and you can either shave off that, or use that edge as a base for your trans or black Arkie adventures. You should be able to shave off your edge before hitting the fine Ark or else you will probably give up before you max out the stone and get a high quality edge.

I strongly suggest that you get yourself a 10x Belomo Triplet loupe. Accept no other. It has good depth of field and focal length so you can stand off a bit from the edge and not risk touching it. It has about the right magnification factor and width of field so you can quickly scan the whole edge, or stop and concentrate on an area. You should also have a very bright single light source, to give those harsh reflections that tell you so much about a bevel. A single point of light and proper magnification are easy to read as you turn the blade in the light. Higher magnification is not really needed for the honing process though it is useful for comparing bevels, and a USB microscope at 60x to 100x gives you some nice pics to post.

 

[JPO]

So the razor that's been having issue is my Geneva Cutlery one. I might've made some deep scratches with the Soft Ark and that might be the reason why the shaves have been rough. It's cutting easily through my arm hair but it still gives a slight tugging feel and doesn't glide through the hair.

My plan is to reset the bevel on the synthetic route and finish off with the Translucent Ark. I think skipping the Soft Ark will help with a finer edge without the scratches and finish it with the Trans to tame the edge a bit. Thanks for all the feedback yall.

These hard stones can be really unforgiving. If you hear or feel anything scratcy under your blade, clean the stone a reapply honing fluid.

If anything brakes off from your edge when you work on your translucent Ark, you risk chipping the edge. I am not sure if it is needed, but I always strop the razor on linen before I move to my Arkansas to get rid of as much weak parts of the edge as possible.

 

[SilverGeezer]

I trashed a lot of 8k edges on the black ark before I figured out What I was doing wrong.
While trying to be very soft on the stone, I was occasionally rolling over the side of the stone, and raking the edge of the blade on the edge of the stone. It sounds different, that's how I figured it out.
One stroke like that and it's start over time.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

The big thing with hard arks, black and translucent is the finish on the stone. A lapping stone likely will do nothing to the stone face.

It must be lapped with Silicone Carbide to first flatten or find out if it is flat.

You can start with a sheet of 220 wet and dry, make a grid with a sharpie on the stone and do 10 laps on a flat hard surface, (pencil will just wash off and tell you nothing). If the grid is not completely removed, the stone is not flat and smooth. It is the smoothness you want and the only way to get it smooth is to lap it flat.

If it is flat, go to 400 and finish on 600. If not flat, you will need to flatten with 60 grit loose Silicone Carbide and a steel cookie sheet on a flat cement floor. Once flat you can run up the grits to polish and switch to paper at 600 grit. Got Grit.com will sell you 60-600 grit for about $15.

You only need to lap it once.

Once you polish an Ark, they polish steel slowly, so as said the razor must be finished to a high level 8 or 12k shaving edge, or you will spend lots of time polishing on an Ark.

Sounds like you 8k edge could use some improvement.

Post photos of the razor that is giving you problems. An ark finished razor should be crisp, keen and smooth.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Pics?

 

[Timeclo]

I trashed a lot of 8k edges on the black ark before I figured out What I was doing wrong.
While trying to be very soft on the stone, I was occasionally rolling over the side of the stone, and raking the edge of the blade on the edge of the stone. It sounds different, that's how I figured it out.
One stroke like that and it's start over time.

I think I've done that plenty of times... Maybe that's the issue. I hear the raking sound here and there.

 

[Timeclo]

Work with this Geneva Cutlery at the moment.

I think it's a 4/8? Not the prettiest looking razor but I sanitized/scrubbed it down and sanded with some 2000 sandpaper.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Yup, bevel is not fully set.

First clean the razor with 000 steel wool and WD40, remove all that rust on the blade, or you will transfer that rust onto your strop. Then polish with any good metal polish.

If you are going to sand start at 600 for a razor in that condition.

Rust is abrasive, way more abrasive than any low grit stone you are using.

A single bit of rust grit will scratch the bevel and end in a chip at the edge.

Once clean fully set the bevel on the 1.5 stone. Get some lighted magnification, under $10 for a lighted 60x or a Carson Microbrite, $15.

Google My Second Try at Honing and make your bevel match the bevels in that thread.

 

[Empire straights]

imho hard hard arks are fitting for the old computing rule garbage in garbage out. I have to present my vintage trans ark with a perfect edge or else it will be a disaster: some sections wickedly keen others junk.

Unforgiving in my hands but when you nail it they are wonderful wonderful edges . Best ever? Well I like to say "six of one..."

This is good advice. Id recommend a newer smith's hard ark to bridge the gap(lower grit than a real hard ark) or a decent coticule that's been tried by a knowledgeable person to use as pre-finishers for the translucent/ black. I don't know about your vendor but I've seen some black arks with a lower sg showing up over the last year from what I gather from various sharpening forums. If you can't get it to work well get a vintage washita and max it out then try it. Or your stone might not be flat, that too can be a serious problem and more than you think to the untrained eye.

 

[Empire straights]

So the razor that's been having issue is my Geneva Cutlery one. I might've made some deep scratches with the Soft Ark and that might be the reason why the shaves have been rough. It's cutting easily through my arm hair but it still gives a slight tugging feel and doesn't glide through the hair.

My plan is to reset the bevel on the synthetic route and finish off with the Translucent Ark. I think skipping the Soft Ark will help with a finer edge without the scratches and finish it with the Trans to tame the edge a bit. Thanks for all the feedback yall.

Id say keep honing on the soft(hone on plain water) until you think you're done then keep going 2-3 times that long. You should be almost shave ready with that. Put oil on it and go as long as your first round with water. You can shave off that if it's a very uniform Soft Ark(old ones are good to go, i only had one new one and it was like Soft granite, total garbage with a plastic base from Smith's).The hard ark should pick up the slack quick if you start with circles for 10-20 mins. After that 10 mind of back and forth and you should have a very smooth shave. Rub your stone together to condition their surfaces. You might be able to make slurry that way too.

 

[Empire straights]

Work with this Geneva Cutlery at the moment.

View attachment 1493597 View attachment 1493598

I think it's a 4/8? Not the prettiest looking razor but I sanitized/scrubbed it down and sanded with some 2000 sandpaper.

Where the light is reflecting on this picture on the edge, that's the bevel. You want that to look the same all the way down the edge from heel to toe. Most flat arks with time and technique can get a razor to a not unpleasant shave, from washita to Soft. Once they're flat rub those rocks together to condition them. Then finish setting the bevel on that razor. Again, time yourself, once you think you are done... do that amount of time 2 or 3 more times. A washita>hard ark is what I used for a long time and my jnats are the only thing that can match that sharp/ smooth/ *perfect* edge. I've tried most things in between.

 

[Timeclo]

I reset the bevel and started all over with the Geneva Cutlery.

Shapton 1.5k - 5k - 8k - 12k - Translucent Ark Progression

I did about 150 laps on the Trans Ark, using mineral oil. I think I prefer the feel of the Black Ark over Trans... a bit more feedback from the stone.

As for the shave, it started off similarly as all the other ones but it was sharp enough to cut through all the growth. It didn't feel buttery smooth but not tuggy either. So far, it's been the best shave with this razor. Even going ATG on the neck, it felt smooth so that's a big improvement for me.

Couple things I changed: Reset the bevel (skip the hard/soft Arks in the middle) and slow down during the Trans Ark (avoid raking the edge). I guess these changes helped produce a better result.

I also think this smaller 4/8 blade has something to do with the feel of the shave. Compared to the 6/8 GD, it feels a bit milder/less sharp? Maybe a bigger blade gives it more stability. Not sure but I'm glad to make some improvements with the Ark finish.

 

[Herrenberg]

I also think this smaller 4/8 blade has something to do with the feel of the shave. Compared to the 6/8 GD, it feels a bit milder/less sharp? Maybe a bigger blade gives it more stability. Not sure but I'm glad to make some improvements with the Ark finish.

Congrats on your improvement!

One thing about 4/8 razors (and even more so, with 3/8 razors) is that it's really easy to accidentally round over the edge during honing and, especially, stropping. A 5/8 or larger razor tends to easily stay flat on the stone or strop. The short base of a 4/8 razor doesn't do that as naturally. I love 4/8 razors, but I always use more concentration during honing and stopping, so that that spine stays firmly on the surface, and I'm not rolling it forward at all.

 

[Timeclo]

Congrats on your improvement!

One thing about 4/8 razors (and even more so, with 3/8 razors) is that it's really easy to accidentally round over the edge during honing and, especially, stropping. A 5/8 or larger razor tends to easily stay flat on the stone or strop. The short base of a 4/8 razor doesn't do that as naturally. I love 4/8 razors, but I always use more concentration during honing and stopping, so that that spine stays firmly on the surface, and I'm not rolling it forward at all.

I did find some differences while stropping with this razor. I'll keep that it mind. Thanks!

 

[2bit_collie]

A few comments - nothing new that others haven’t said.

I agree about the progressions. I use one of several paths to the true hard Ark, synth or natural.
Bevel setter is always the first step - a Shapton 2k
Then we enter the parallel paths. 2nd stone Shapton 5k or low density Washita. Next Naniwa Snow White 8k or Grecian Idwal or high density Washita. Next the pre-finisher, ILR, Charnley Forest or hard Ark. Finally my true hard or black Ark. I spend 5-10 minutes with the last Ark, using Norton honing oil as the lubricant.

And as others have mentioned, my most common issue is dragging the blade across the edge. I really should chamfer them. I usually hone on the counter so that I can use a finger on the toe of the blade to keep it off the edge.

 

[Chandu]

One general thing about Arks. I carve wood and caught onto sharpening fairly quickly. There were a few that started under the same master with me that didn't. We used Arkansas stones and a simple strop. Carving sharp is easily obtainable with that setup.

However, the ones that didn't get sharp edges had a problem. Consistency. I helped them. I diagnosed their problem. Even with soft Arks the cutting rate is so slow by the time you realize you are boogering your edge, it's too late.

I had them all buy a 400/1200 grit Eze-Lap combo diamond plate and a Sharpie and come over to my house. The diamond cuts quickly enough that you can easily see if you are not on the bevel right, etc. Within an hour in one evening I had them on the right path.

I only bring this up to say that Arks are not a beginner stone. I'd make sure you are able to get sharp edges elsewhere before heading to an Ark.

My two cents.

(Not suggesting you subject your razor to a diamond plate).

 

[Timeclo]

One general thing about Arks. I carve wood and caught onto sharpening fairly quickly. There were a few that started under the same master with me that didn't. We used Arkansas stones and a simple strop. Carving sharp is easily obtainable with that setup.

However, the ones that didn't get sharp edges had a problem. Consistency. I helped them. I diagnosed their problem. Even with soft Arks the cutting rate is so slow by the time you realize you are boogering your edge, it's too late.

I had them all buy a 400/1200 grit Eze-Lap combo diamond plate and a Sharpie and come over to my house. The diamond cuts quickly enough that you can easily see if you are not on the bevel right, etc. Within an hour in one evening I had them on the right path.

I only bring this up to say that Arks are not a beginner stone. I'd make sure you are able to get sharp edges elsewhere before heading to an Ark.

My two cents.

(Not suggesting you subject your razor to a diamond plate).

Thanks. I guess I underestimated how difficult Arks can be. I'm still willing to work with them and I'm somewhat limiting myself to these to learn how to use them. I've gotten couple decent edges so I'm happy with the progress so far. The honing can be a bit nerve-wrecking though. I'm just dreading over killing the edge on a Ark haha

 

[Empire straights]

Thanks. I guess I underestimated how difficult Arks can be. I'm still willing to work with them and I'm somewhat limiting myself to these to learn how to use them. I've gotten couple decent edges so I'm happy with the progress so far. The honing can be a bit nerve-wrecking though. I'm just dreading over killing the edge on a Ark haha

Once you get hard Arks down most other stones will be a breeze, out it was for me. It's VERY easy to ruin a razors edge on an ark but a good edge from them is unlike anything else.