Arkansas Finish - Wanting a sharper edge

[Timeclo]

I'm pretty new to honing and I've taken an interest in bunch of Arkansas stones. I started off with Soft and Hard Arks but quickly realized that they weren't going to be any finishers. So I bought a Translucent and Black Ark from bestsharpeningstones and I'm currently working with them.

I've tried two edges with the Translucent and Black. One going from Shapton 1.5K, Soft/Hard Ark, Shapton 8K, and then Trans. Another the same but add Shapton 12K and the Black.

The one edge after 8K felt like a more comfortable 8K feel but still tuggy. One after the 12K, felt like the 12K edge but more tuggy. I'm still looking for that sharp keen edge that is comfortable on the skin with the Arks.

My honing time with the Arks are around 30min - 1hr. I don't count laps because I heard there's no point doing it with the Arks. Also, I hone with water or water + lather. I thought about oil but didn't want to make the fingers more slippery during honing.

I'd be happy to hear any tips or advices from those getting good keen edges from Arks. Or your experience with these finishing stones.

 

[Legion]

I find I really need to use oil with Arks to get the most out of them.

Keep some paper towel handy, and don't flood the stone with oil, it shouldn't run down the sides much.

 

[Wid]

Have you shaved off the 8k or 12k edge before trying the translucent stone? You really have to max out an edge to realize any benefit from a black or trans ark.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

How have you dressed the surface on your arks? Some guys like them finished with 600 w/d, others 1200 (and everything in between). Some guys hit them with w/d whenever they start to get too burnished from a lot of honing, others like them well burnished.

My preference is finished with around 800 w/d and not letting it get too burnished. My best edges have been with oil, I've used WD40 as well as jojoba oil but usually I grab WD40...mineral oil works too. I've had mostly good results with a smear of Dawn dishsoap and sprayed water, although the honing sensation is kind of unpleasant for the first 50 laps or more. Water only is something I only tried once and won't be doing it again.

You'll get less feedback with oil, but it seems like overall the final result is better so that's what I use most of the time.

Like @Wid said, the edge needs to be pretty much shave ready before you get there. I usually do in the neighborhood of 120 to 200 laps which for me is probably less than 10 minutes.. More than that has made edges that were plenty sharp but not all that pleasant. But honing time is going to depend a lot on surface prep, your touch, etc.

 

[Timeclo]

Have you shaved off the 8k or 12k edge before trying the translucent stone? You really have to max out an edge to realize any benefit from a black or trans ark.

I've tried both. 8K can cut through stubbles but little tuggy/rough. 12K cuts really well but maybe a tad too sharp.

 

[Timeclo]

How have you dressed the surface on your arks? Some guys like them finished with 600 w/d, others 1200 (and everything in between). Some guys hit them with w/d whenever they start to get too burnished from a lot of honing, others like them well burnished.

My preference is finished with around 800 w/d and not letting it get too burnished. My best edges have been with oil, I've used WD40 as well as jojoba oil but usually I grab WD40...mineral oil works too. I've had mostly good results with a smear of Dawn dishsoap and sprayed water, although the honing sensation is kind of unpleasant for the first 50 laps or more. Water only is something I only tried once and won't be doing it again.

You'll get less feedback with oil, but it seems like overall the final result is better so that's what I use most of the time.

Like @Wid said, the edge needs to be pretty much shave ready before you get there. I usually do in the neighborhood of 120 to 200 laps which for me is probably less than 10 minutes.. More than that has made edges that were plenty sharp but not all that pleasant. But honing time is going to depend a lot on surface prep, your touch, etc.

No dressing on the surfaces. I just use my norton flattening stones for a little bit and get to work. I can see that there are no real swarf when I use the Trans or Black Arks. So I'm guessing they're more of a polish than removing the metals. I have some mineral oil around so I'll try that tonight.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

No dressing on the surfaces. I just use my norton flattening stones for a little bit and get to work. I can see that there are no real swarf when I use the Trans or Black Arks. So I'm guessing they're more of a polish than removing the metals. I have some mineral oil around so I'll try that tonight.

Yeah, you shouldn't see any swarf. My advice would be to go from the 12k, use oil (you don't need a lot) and spend between 5 and 10 minutes on it. See where that gets you. And make sure you don't lift the spine by accident during your stroke or you'll be going back to the synths.

 

[HazMat Shaver]

Ive used Ballistol with water also dish soap with water on Arkies. With the extra layer of cusion from these it allows for an even lighter touch for a finer finished edge.

After a 12k edge im thinking your not gaining any more keenness. Just changing the feel. JMO.

BTW, Ive never found an Arkie edge to my liking and Ive had a few stones. I still have a Dans Trans. And I like a burnished finish to my stone. To each there own when it comes to the Arkies.

 

[Chandu]

bestsharpeningstones and I'm currently working with them.

Those will be nothing like a Hard Black or Translucent from Dan's Whetstones. Dan has the best hard Arks in production today and you will have to pay for them or take chances elsewhere.

 

[Alum of Potash]

Why are you honing the razor? To maintain the edge? Or go from start to finish with a junker?

 

[Herrenberg]

I'll pass on a lesson I learned the hard way, and not long ago: to get the best edge on my Arks, I had to change my usual habits and use almost no pressure at all when finishing. Not that I use a lot of pressure when finishing on other stones, but I had to use a lot less than that on Arks before things fell into place.

Stones: Dan's hard black and vintage translucent Pike and Norton.

 

[Wid]

When all else fails look back to your bevel set.

 

[Alum of Potash]

From the hones you mention, things seem pretty complicated if you are going from the bevel-set to a finished shaving edge. I would say that there are two paths. One would be to use a dedicated Arkansas progression. The other would be to use synths to jack things up to 12k, then use a smoothed translucent or true black hard Arkansas to temper that edge.

The first path demands more skill. There, one can pare things down to just a soft Ark and a black hard or translucent Ark with oil, but it also demands upkeep of the surface of the soft Ark to keep it aggressive and a two-sided approach with the second, whereby one side would be lapped more coarsely to follow the soft Ark and the other would be lapped smooth for the final finish. The second path would be to use synths to create a jacked-up 12k edge and then smooth this with a translucent or black hard Ark used with oil that has been lapped up to ~1000x using w/d sandpaper. With the latter, based on the synths you mention, that would mean a 1.5k > 8k > 12k "Shapton" progression prior to introducing the smoothed, polished Arkansas finisher. Assuming that the 1.5k Shapton synth is from the "Pro" line, it would be better to acquire a 5k Shapton Pro to bridge from 1.5k to 8k. The soft/hard Ark combo that you have been using might work instead of the 5k Shapton Pro in theory, but it is a bit like inserting an apple into a sequence of oranges. Here, it would be best to leave that Ark x-variable to the end after the 12k in a synth sequence IMO.

 

[Timeclo]

Yeah, you shouldn't see any swarf. My advice would be to go from the 12k, use oil (you don't need a lot) and spend between 5 and 10 minutes on it. See where that gets you. And make sure you don't lift the spine by accident during your stroke or you'll be going back to the synths.

I just came off of finishing my GD with the Black Ark using some mineral oil. What a difference. I can actually feel the stone and it seems to cut better, even though there is minimal swarf. I guess they are oilstones for a reason. With just water, it feels like I'm honing on glass.

 

[Timeclo]

Why are you honing the razor? To maintain the edge? Or go from start to finish with a junker?

For now, I'm trying start to finish. I got two vintages I got off ebay and several GDs to work on. Later on, it'll be to maintain the edge.

 

[Timeclo]

I'll pass on a lesson I learned the hard way, and not long ago: to get the best edge on my Arks, I had to change my usual habits and use almost no pressure at all when finishing. Not that I use a lot of pressure when finishing on other stones, but I had to use a lot less than that on Arks before things fell into place.

Stones: Dan's hard black and vintage translucent Pike and Norton.

I'll keep that in mind. I've been wanting to put more pressure to improve on the keenness of the edge but that might not work.

 

[Timeclo]

From the hones you mention, things seem pretty complicated if you are going from the bevel-set to a finished shaving edge. I would say that there are two paths. One would be to use a dedicated Arkansas progression. The other would be to use synths to jack things up to 12k, then use a smoothed translucent or true black hard Arkansas to temper that edge.

The first path demands more skill. There, one can pare things down to just a soft Ark and a black hard or translucent Ark with oil, but it also demands upkeep of the surface of the soft Ark to keep it aggressive and a two-sided approach with the second, whereby one side would be lapped more coarsely to follow the soft Ark and the other would be lapped smooth for the final finish. The second path would be to use synths to create a jacked-up 12k edge and then smooth this with a translucent or black hard Ark used with oil that has been lapped up to ~1000x using w/d sandpaper. With the latter, based on the synths you mention, that would mean a 1.5k > 8k > 12k "Shapton" progression prior to introducing the smoothed, polished Arkansas finisher. Assuming that the 1.5k Shapton synth is from the "Pro" line, it would be better to acquire a 5k Shapton Pro to bridge from 1.5k to 8k. The soft/hard Ark combo that you have been using might work instead of the 5k Shapton Pro in theory, but it is a bit like inserting an apple into a sequence of oranges. Here, it would be best to leave that Ark x-variable to the end after the 12k in a synth sequence IMO.

That sounds reasonable. The reason I put the soft/hard Ark in the progression is to test out that combination stone. I might try the first path later on but for now, I'll stick to the pure synthetic route and finish with Black or Trans.

I've tried soft/hard/trans progression and shaved at each point. I did not enjoy any of them haha.

 

[Alum of Potash]

I've tried soft/hard/trans progression and shaved at each point. I did not enjoy any of them haha.

That's because the edge off the translucent there is less developed than it would be off a 12k in a synthetic progression. Off a translucent in a dedicated Arkansas progression, it would help to follow it with a pasted strop as to a finish, the red Solingen stick applied to lightly-sanded, vegetable-tanned sanded leather being my favorite there.

 

[JPO]

I would add something like a 5k shapton and follow it with your 8k and 12k, then strop the razor on linen and leather. Spend a maximum of 5 min, or even less on the translucent ark.
Pressure is subjective, but you need enough pressure/torque to maintain good contact with the stone.
Your 12k edge should be quite good , so it might be easier to avoid to much work on the Ark. You can always shave test and go back to the Ark and do some more.
If you are going from an 8k you need to spend quite allot more time, but not from the 12k.
I often go from a coticule to my Arkansas. I do not need to spend allot of time going from a coti.

 

[cugel]

imho hard hard arks are fitting for the old computing rule garbage in garbage out. I have to present my vintage trans ark with a perfect edge or else it will be a disaster: some sections wickedly keen others junk.

Unforgiving in my hands but when you nail it they are wonderful wonderful edges . Best ever? Well I like to say "six of one..."