Are we alone?

[Lightcs1776]

Outside of the spiritual, God and His angels, I believe we are alone. The odds of this world occurring by chance are so enormous that it is practically impossible, so I don't subscribe theories such as the big bang theory or the theory of evolution. I have seen no evidence that indicates we are not alone, regardless of the size of the universe.

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[Raissermesser]

Whoah now! What evidence is there that time and the universe are finite? One theory is that with the Big Bang, the universe started 14 billion years ago, but that is far from rock solid conclusive.

Entropy also points to a finite universe. But if the universe is a hypersphere, there is no boundary. Given an imaginary faster-than-light spaceship (powered by imaginary particles, of course), an astronaut could set out straight into the void and eventually return to his starting point.

 

[dionesius3]

I didn't say it was conclusive, I said it was the best estimate we have. And even if you doubled or even tripled the time component the mathematical probability remains impossible. Akin to winning the lottery 100 times in a row playing the exact same number each time. I don't see how anyone can miss the absolutely fantastical freak of chance humanity actually is, it is so freakish that no one would believe it possible given the time constraints and the odds of getting it right.

It flies in the face of reason, logic, and sound judgement. It just could not have possibly happened and yet it did. One time and in one place, and this is all we know. We can fantasize, and dream that there is life out there somewhere, just as we did when as children we dreamed for being rich and famous when we grow up. But our hopes and dreams are really just hopes and dreams. As Stephen Hawking said ; "I hope that..."
He could not say with any certainly, and would never have done so, he hoped and dreamed that such "should" be true.
But the hard facts of TIME and Evidence keep him and everyone else from making statements that they know life is out there.

I can't say it isn't out there with any real certainty, but I can by mathematical probability estimate that if it does exist then it has defied the known laws that govern our world and underlie our modern world.
But as with all such discussions...YMMV!

 

[Seraphim]

There must be an infinite.

If the universe is finite, then beyond lies NOTHINGNESS. Which is more likley? Infinity (of both time and space), or a boundary between what IS and absolute nothing?

 

[dionesius3]

There must be an infinite.

I agree 100% with that statement, What that Infinite is is a question of faith and not a question of reason/logic.
I am restricting my comments to the reason/logic side because to venture into the realm of faith would be to violate the dictates of gentlemanly behavior!

 

[Mick]

There must be an infinite.

If the universe is finite, then beyond lies NOTHINGNESS. Which is more likley? Infinity (of both time and space), or a boundary between what IS and absolute nothing?

Ah but how many more universes are contained in that boundless nothingness you speak of, and beyond that, how many more nothingnesses exist with their own universes which are contained by.......

If there is no end, regardless of what you call the "nothingness", there are only endless possibilities

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[Raissermesser]

There must be an infinite.

If the universe is finite, then beyond lies NOTHINGNESS. Which is more likley? Infinity (of both time and space), or a boundary between what IS and absolute nothing?

There isn't necessarily nothing outside of our universe. Since all that we experience and can measure is part of the universe, whether it's matter or energy or space-time itself, and we cannot measure beyond that, comprehending what may be outside is a tad difficult.

 

[Seraphim]

Ah but how many more universes are contained in that boundless nothingness you speak of, and beyond that, how many more nothingnesses exist with their own universes which are contained by.......

If there is no end, regardless of what you call the "nothingness", there are only endless possibilities

.

Which would mean “infinite”, wouldn’t it?

 

[Seraphim]

I agree 100% with that statement, What that Infinite is is a question of faith and not a question of reason/logic.
I am restricting my comments to the reason/logic side because to venture into the realm of faith would be to violate the dictates of gentlemanly behavior!

My argument is reason/logic based here as well.

 

[Mick]

The mayonnaise jar theory of the universe and why it fails.

Theory: The universe is finite and contained by a empty void much like being contained in a sealed mayonnaise jar.

Where I get lost with this is, what is holding the jar closed and what is keeping it from falling and breaking?

If there is "something" external to the universe that is powerful enough to constrain it, how can something with that much power be "nothing"?

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[shaveitoff]

Maybe there is life out there. Maybe there isn't. But does it make a difference to us if we aren't a tourist destination for space people?

 

[dionesius3]

The mayonnaise jar theory of the universe and why it fails.

Theory: The universe is finite and contained by a empty void much like being contained in a sealed mayonnaise jar.

Where I get lost with this is, what is holding the jar closed and what is keeping it from falling and breaking?

If there is "something" external to the universe that is powerful enough to constrain it, how can something with that much power be "nothing"?

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Your analogy is faulty, either there is ONLY what we see, hear, feel, taste, etc... or there is a fuzzy fantastical where anything is possible. I.E. the flying spaghetti monster created the universe and all that is within it by the power of his excellent sauce.

That is where the discussion has strayed at this point if we are arguing from nothingness towards what is known. I agree that human knowledge is frail and limited at best, but it is after all all that we have to work with in this discussion and as such we are immensely limited.

But it still remains that some theories are indeed better than others, and life existing out there somewhere does not qualify as one of the better human theories for a number of reasons. Notwithstanding that of both reason and logic which dictate based upon what we know that life is indeed unique to our terrestrial ball.

 

[Mick]

Maybe there is life out there. Maybe there isn't. But does it make a difference to us if we aren't a tourist destination for space people?

As a species we will not survive long enough to have contact with any lifeforms more developed than bacteria or viruses. We may recognize them as alien lifeforms but nothing else.

Our species development and physical constraints will not allow for travel outside of our planetary sphere and I do not believe that we will be "visited" because of the vastness of the universe.

In fact this planet, even without our presence on it, may not last long enough to be visited.

Thus goes the theory of finite existence with which we must deal with. We are born and we die in a finite time span. This planet also has it's own finality, whether natural or exposed to outside forces. The earth has a finite existence within the larger infinite existance of the universe.

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[dionesius3]

There isn't necessarily nothing outside of our universe. Since all that we experience and can measure is part of the universe, whether it's matter or energy or space-time itself, and we cannot measure beyond that, comprehending what may be outside is a tad difficult.

It is moving from a discussion of science and facts into a discussion of faith and belief. Because there are no scientific principles upon which such a discussion could take place. It is as has been said by someone before, "one day science will answer all the questions it possibly can and we will know everything possible to know and once we do we will then realize that we still don't have any answer for the question of why it should be so.
And the the scientist and the philosopher shall sit down at the table together and try to get on with the real question after all.

 

[Esox]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no visible end of the universe as far as I know. As far as dating anything inside it, that can only be limited to whats near us. Dating stars cannot be done outside of our own galaxy and its a bit of a chore as it is at best.

If there is no end, the universe is infinite, and yet still expanding. Just because we havent been able to see further back than 14 billion years doesnt mean it ends there.

As far as alien life, maybe, somewhere and somehow life evolved from Silicon instead of Carbon and they're all typing on a forum on how to best trim, shave and/or shape and other wise maintain their crystalline spikes that keep reappearing every so many hours, while debating the merits of alien life and the probability of it? lol

They might not have anything else to base their theory on because in their world, solar system, galaxy, Silicon based life forms are the norm and anything outside of that seems ludicrous.

I personally just cannot believe that out of the untold billions of galaxies, that each hold untold billions of stars and even more planets, that we're the sole residents. If anything seems impossible to me, its that.

 

[Mick]

Your analogy is faulty, either there is ONLY what we see, hear, feel, taste, etc... or there is a fuzzy fantastical where anything is possible.

I had to take chaos theory mathematics in school for my meteorology major. Chaos theory plays an important role in understanding and predicting weather. Google "chaos theory butterfly wings". It's been half a century since I discussed chaos theory in a meaningful way because it takes someone who has a basic knowledge and grasp of chaos to banter with.

When you understand the chaos statement that a butterfly flapping its wings in China can cause a hurricane in Texas, you can then understand and apply this to other tasks like aerodynamic design and if you want, to the universe where chaos theory mathmatics really comes into being.

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[dionesius3]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no visible end of the universe as far as I know. As far as dating anything inside it, that can only be limited to whats near us. Dating stars cannot be done outside of our own galaxy and its a bit of a chore as it is at best.

If there is no end, the universe is infinite, and yet still expanding. Just because we havent been able to see further back than 14 billion years doesnt mean it ends there.

As far as alien life, maybe, somewhere and somehow life evolved from Silicon instead of Carbon and they're all typing on a forum on how to best trim, shave and/or shape and other wise maintain their crystalline spikes that keep reappearing every so many hours, while debating the merits of alien life and the probability of it? lol

They might not have anything else to base their theory on because in their world, solar system, galaxy, Silicon based life forms are the norm and anything outside of that seems ludicrous.

I personally just cannot believe that out of the untold billions of galaxies, that each hold untold billions of stars and even more planets, that we're the sole residents. If anything seems impossible to me, its that.

You are free to believe this if you want to, I'm perfectly happy with your belief whatever it may be, but it is Outside the bounds of both logic and reason. And has become a matter of faith/spirituality. I have my own faith/spiritual beliefs as well. But I was under the impression that this particular discussion was to be within the boundaries of knowledge/reason/logic and not venture out into that of faith/belief/spiritual concerns. Because when we cross those boundaries we have moved into a discussion that can quickly become ungentlemanly and something we tend to avoid here.
I am pretty happy to discuss the subject as long as we remain firmly outside the realm of faith/belief/spiritual concerns, because otherwise we would end up offending some.

 

[Esox]

You are free to believe this if you want to, I'm perfectly happy with your belief whatever it may be, but it is Outside the bounds of both logic and reason. And has become a matter of faith/spirituality. I have my own faith/spiritual beliefs as well. But I was under the impression that this particular discussion was to be within the boundaries of knowledge/reason/logic and not venture out into that of faith/belief/spiritual concerns. Because when we cross those boundaries we have moved into a discussion that can quickly become ungentlemanly and something we tend to avoid here.
I am pretty happy to discuss the subject as long as we remain firmly outside the realm of faith/belief/spiritual concerns, because otherwise we would end up offending some.

I implied no religious thought to anything I said, my own personal beliefs aside, which are more of a scientific nature than spiritual.

I'm not a mathematician either, but I have a hard time accepting that theres a mathematical equation that would prove life does not exist outside of our planet.

I was going to bring up quantum theories, well I guess I did in my first post, but thats a whole new ballgame lol.

 

[Mick]

I implied no religious thought to anything I said, my own personal beliefs aside, which are more of a scientific nature than spiritual.

I'm not a mathematician either, but I have a hard time accepting that theres a mathematical equation that would prove life does not exist outside of our planet.

I was going to bring up quantum theories, well I guess I did in my first post, but thats a whole new ballgame lol.

Ah the religion of science "so it is written so must it be"

Question everything. That is the only way to break dogmas of all kinds.

I do not have the mental capacity to disprove long held theories but I can voice opinions which may help others with more knowledge to move foward.

 

[dionesius3]

I had to take chaos theory mathematics in school for my meteorology major. Chaos theory plays an important role in understanding and predicting weather. Google "chaos theory butterfly wings". It's been half a century since I discussed chaos theory in a meaningful way because it takes someone who has a basic knowledge and grasp of chaos to banter with.

When you understand the chaos statement that a butterfly flapping its wings in China can cause a hurricane in Texas, you can then understand and apply this to other tasks like aerodynamic design and if you want, to the universe where chaos theory mathmatics really comes into being.

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There is a very key term in what you replied here; THEORY, there is where we are for the most part. What your arguing is Theoretical, it is and has been demonstrated to be faulty in several key points with reality. That is why the really big name science guys don't really talk about or use Chaos Theory much any more except in some very select subsets of science like meteorology and a few other disciplines. The THEORY of there being a multi-verse is a very logical/reasonable discussion but it is not anything beyond a dream or hope or wish. No matter how logical or reasonable it may seem to our minds. You can not test and demonstrate its existence.

And as such it remains a theory. Working with what we actually know and can demonstrate and verify within the constraints of knowledge requires that we state unequivocally that there is no life in the universe other than what we have here on earth. To say it makes sense that it Must exist else where is to state a dream/hope and not to express a scientific/logical/reason based point of view.