Translucent Arkansas help please

[duke762]

Hang on, back the truck up. If you are burnishing your hone, that is most likely where your problems or disappointments with the Trans lie. Freshen the surface on 600 W/D and give it a go. I just ranted on a thread a week or so ago about the burnishing issue.

To Burnish or not to Burnish... - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/to-burnish-or-not-to-burnish.589351/

 

[Alum of Potash]

The razor I am going to do this morning has been honed from a 10K Naniwa to a JNAT and has given me two great shaves, so I know it is a good edge to start with. We'll see how I do today; fingers crossed.

In this case, I would think that the edge as honed should already be shave-ready and that the Arkansas stone would only be acting as a steel or strop in lieu of leather. Plain stropping should do the trick off the progression as given, leaving the Arkansas for other duties. If so, try three laterally-biassed, or almost straight across, laps on the Arkansas stone with the razor as given after two great shaves to clear the edge, then move to plain leather stropping and shave again.

 

[RenoRichard]

Hang on, back the truck up. If you are burnishing your hone, that is most likely where your problems or disappointments with the Trans lie. Freshen the surface on 600 W/D and give it a go. I just ranted on a thread a week or so ago about the burnishing issue.

Thanks! It was easy enough to undo the burnishing and now I have the stone dressed on 800 w/d- all I had here.

Where in a progression do you think I should use the trans ark? Do I come off a Naniwa 10K to the trans ark, use it before I would normally use a Naniwa 10K, or do I do a final finish- on a JNAT and then to the trans ark? Yesterday, I took a shave ready razor to it and the trans ark left more scratches on the edge and the shave test was not as good as off my JNAT. Of course, I stropped well after the stones in each case.

This exercise is for me to learn how to get that great Arkansas edge I keep reading about.

 

[LJS]

Where in a progression do you think I should use the trans ark?

RR - if you want to use as a finisher, then you need to come to the ark with a perfect shaving edge. The more perfect the better. Use it to give the stone characters alone. In fact, hone a razor as best as you can, shave with it and notice the feel, then finish again on the ark and compare. That is my suggestion - it fits in the progression well as a finisher and as a finisher it is best you start with a perfect shaving edge you like already.

I’m not sure what happened in your previous attempt. I’ll say again, unforgiving stone. Slightest slip will take you backwards. But start shave ready for best results.

 

[Bowmaker]

Arks as post finishers seem to be the most popular way to use them and for good reason I think. It's not the only way though. This has been my favorite progression lately. An undersized 1 3/4 x 5 1/2 Washita paired with a Smiths combination hard soft. The soft side of the Smiths is worthless and always has been but the hard side is a translucent of probably second quality that is really fast for how fine it is. I failed to finish with it on a couple of attempts thinking it was to coarse until took the time to flatten it and finished it on 800 wet dry.

 

[duke762]

A freshly dressed Trans/Black can feel pretty crispy and crunchy at first. Since the stone is so hard, and you can feel every piece of lint, grit, ashes and cat hair, I always squeegee my stone with a single edge razor blade and a couple drops of lube before I start. Squeegee with razor blade, re lube and I'm set to go. Anything like residual particles form lapping or dressing, will be quickly removed along with everything else and most most cat hair. It's really hard to get cat hair off a stone. It should start to feel better after 50 or so laps. If it's driving me nuts, I add a drop or 2 of mineral oil to my WD40 to buffer until the stone settles down.

Where in a progression do you think I should use the trans ark? Do I come off a Naniwa 10K to the trans ark, use it before I would normally use a Naniwa 10K, or do I do a final finish- on a JNAT and then to the trans ark?

If you are using magnification, use the Trans after the hone which gives you the cleanest apex. After either should be good. I use mine after an unnamed slate which gets the apex cleaner than I can do on my Coti's. ( this unidentified slate may well be a Thuri ) If you have a good shaving edge, you should be able to go to the Ark and get the benefits regardless of stone type used before as long as it was a good shaving edge.

Another thought just popped into my head. You are an experienced honer but all the other hones you listed are water hones and much softer than an Ark. The Ark is totally unforgiving of any mistakes in the honing stroke and even how you flip your blade could be a factor. Strive to present your blade to the Ark quietly and gently. Perfect strokes, usually lots of them.

Another factor may be pressure. Coming from a background of Coti's, Thuri's and Jnat's, I believe all those stones (speculating here) are used with a bit more pressure than an Ark. Use just enough torque on the tang to keep everything on the stone nice and flat. Lubricant can play a role here also. An Ark of the Black/Trans family when used with too high viscosity lube may cause the honer to dial up the pressure to make good contact with the stone. Try a very thin, water like lube such as Ballistol or WD40. If your used to using water, you might try water and a little dish soap or water glycerine mixtures. Let the stone do the work. You should be able to feel and possibly hear the stone doing something. A sensation of fine abrasiveness that will fade away to the sensation of honing on glass. Persist for as many laps as you feel good about and you are done.

I feel you are very close. If you keep trying you will get it. Nirvana awaits.....

 

[SliceOfLife]

Mystery slates are the worst. There are some that are just as good as Thuris, but we'll never know what they are, and they look identical to another mystery slate that might finish worse than a 4k.

Nothing like having a small mystery slate that's really, really good. Knowing you'll never use it because of size, and no one will give ya anything for it because it's a mystery slate. I've sold lots of 5-10 Thuri-tier slates for $5-10 each just because I never used them due to size. Can't really blame them though. For every mystery slate I get that is that good I get at least 10 that are CNAT-tier.

Arks can be used with plenty of pressure. It depends on the stone condition and what you're trying to do. You don't want to be digging in at the end of honing, but honestly, it wouldn't be easy to do if you tried because the razor will slide so easily. As the razor finishes, I find I kind of default to easing off the pressure because it's almost necessary to keep control over the razor. Maybe it's learned behavior, but I remember it being almost automatic.

I'll say this... I never... on ANY stone, focus on minimizing pressure. The least pressure I ever use is what's comfortable to be confident the razor is where I want it, flat on the stone, and under my control. When I use MORE pressure than that is when there's thought involved... and that's often measured and determined by what pressure gives me the correct resistance, pace, and feedback on the stone I'm using. This isn't specific to Arks, it's with every hone... but arks are probably where it's most important.

I also very rarely hand hone... so my minimum pressure is likely still heavier than most hand-honers minimum pressure.

 

[RenoRichard]

Today's shave was better off the Ark! Not quite there yet, but thanks to all of you- improving quickly. What great tips, thanks so much!

I re-dressed the stone on 800 w/d, used WD40, used a Gem blade to make sure the stone was cleaned up, and a bit more pressure to start than before, with less to finish. I think my blade may have been floating some on the heavier honing oil and not contacting the surface fully, as one of you suggested. Also, since I am dialed in on using water stones, I made sure to slow it down to newbie speed this morning. The razor came off the Ark HHT 3 and after stropping was almost a solid HHT 4. The shave was an 8.5/10, just not quite as close as I favor. There is still some more keenness to seek.

Clearly, still a way to go. But, now at least getting a real feel for how these stones behave. It is different from my others, but it's fun to learn new things.

 

[RenoRichard]

Honed a shave ready Kropp this morning and when I used a combo of several dozen edge leading and then edge trailing strokes, I ended up with some added keenness and smoothness. It's getting very close to a spectacular edge. Shave today was 9.5/10!

 

[global_dev]

Renorich, you inspired me to pick up a translu and give it a go. I had my hands on a loaned SB many years ago but i just didnt use it, felt bad holding on to it for more than a week or so back then.

 

[Bowmaker]

Honed a shave ready Kropp this morning and when I used a combo of several dozen edge leading and then edge trailing strokes, I ended up with some added keenness and smoothness. It's getting very close to a spectacular edge. Shave today was 9.5/10!

Some edge trailing strokes always seems to give my edges a bump also. Maybe it would be different on some fast cutting stones I don't know but I use them as a final step a lot.

 

[RenoRichard]

Update- I've honed a few more razors on the translucent and my results are improving. I had a great shave today with a J3 Customs razor this morning after giving it 100 laps on the translucent last night. I did notice that the edge went from a near mirror off my JNAT to a more hazy edge off the Arkansas. But the shave was simply great, very close and comfortable. No irritation and no nicks or weepers. Are hazy edges normal off these translucents?

 

[SliceOfLife]

Honestly, I can't remember. I never look at my bevel on razors except at 6000x magnification. I'll whip one up and let you know.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Can definitely leave it frosty with the right angle light if the previous hone leaves it frosty. If you work it enough it should polish to a shine from every angle, but that'll happen long after you max out the edge.

 

[RenoRichard]

Can definitely leave it frosty with the right angle light if the previous hone leaves it frosty. If you work it enough it should polish to a shine from every angle, but that'll happen long after you max out the edge.

Thanks so very much!!! My edge looks just like yours. The razor shaved wonderfully this morning. Maybe I'll give it some more laps to see if the frost dissipates some. Thanks to everyone's help, I guess I have now gotten that great Arkansas edge .

Oh, I measured the specific gravity of the the stone from the info on the other thread and I came up with 2.61. Clearly, in the ballpark.

 

[global_dev]

nice! glad to hear your edges improved! i just started working an edge yesterday and then redid again today since it wasn't that great.

can you guys tell me what type of scale you are using? all of my food style scales seem to error out with the water weight. I am using a 8x2, so i tried to find something large enough to fit. It also definitely can't be just sitting on the container with water, it needs to be hanging, is that right?

 

[stone and strop]

I use a small digital scale and yes, it needs to be hanging and fully submerged.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I have a scale I think is a kitchen scale that's good to 5lbs iirc. I use it mostly for weighing packages before shipping. Using a Barbasol soaking jar and never tops 2kg... can't do anything bigger than 8" though... and I doubt I have anything bigger that wouldn't exceed what my scale can do. I'd need a 5kg-capable scale to measure my 10 and 12" stones.

And yes, if it isn't hanging, the scale will measure the weight of the stone, not the volume because the stone will exert force directly on the vessel you're using (and that exerts it directly on the scale). By hanging it, the water exerts an upward force (bouyancy) on the stone equal to EXACTLY the weight of the water it displaces (with the remainder of the stone's weight being supported by the string). The stone then exerts a downward force on the water (because of Newton's 3rd law)... this is read by the scale, and as water is 1g/ml, that translates to a volume in ml reading for the stone.

 

[RenoRichard]

I used my wife's professional baking scale, essentially a high grade kitchen scale, to weigh the stone. I couldn't find a tall enough beaker that didn't overweigh the scale. So, I used a digital caliper to measure the stone and calculate the volume as accurately as I could. Then I used the link @stone and strop posted:

Found this,

Mass & Volume to Density Calculator

This calculator will determine object density from entered mass and volume, and display two conversion scales of mass vs density and volume vs density, ρ=m/V

www.sensorsone.com

That's how I estimated my stone, @ 2.61. I'll look for a container that will work and compare the numbers. Water displacement should be more accurate.

 

[timwcic]

A empty soda pop bottle or water bottle with top cut off will work great. This Black Trans Norton Hard was 2.71