Stones that were let downs

[Pack line]

While back i picked up a massive 1k "lobster" for a good price. Brick red and close to 8x3x3. Terribly thirsty, soft, red swarf everywhere and slow. Too many other options for 1k to bother with. But i have the original box so might be a nice wall hanger... if i could just find a wall...

Also go a nakayama kiita koppa from a reputable seller. Have not figured it out yet. Gotten great edges off other jnats but this one is still a mystery to me. So far a disappointment, but my expectations were pretty high. Either the stone sucks, or i suck. Not sure which it is yet.

 

[Pack line]

Giya nagura. The piece i got is so hard that the only way i have found to get slurry out of it is with a diamond plate. Making slurry on a diamond plate and washing it onto the awasedo is not my idea of a good time.

 

[Christian1212]

Giya nagura. The piece i got is so hard that the only way i have found to get slurry out of it is with a diamond plate. Making slurry on a diamond plate and washing it onto the awasedo is not my idea of a good time.

Is your slurry stone flat or curved at all? Here is a video that demonstrates how to raise slurry for that situation.

 

[life2short1971]

Giya nagura. The piece i got is so hard that the only way i have found to get slurry out of it is with a diamond plate. Making slurry on a diamond plate and washing it onto the awasedo is not my idea of a good time.

The hardest nagura are best when you want slurry from your base stone only. Its a good nagura its just not best for what you want currently.

 

[Pack line]

Is your slurry stone flat or curved at all? Here is a video that demonstrates how to raise slurry for that situation.

That is how i normally make slurry anyway, not completely flat against the stone. All is does is raise base slurry. On my one ozuku i can kinda get some slurry started, just have to use very light pressure or it will release chunks of giya

 

[Pack line]

The hardest nagura are best when you want slurry from your base stone only. Its a good nagura its just not best for what you want currently.

Probably my expectation more then anything. They are cheap enough, might try another one.

 

[life2short1971]

Probably my expectation more then anything. They are cheap enough, might try another one.

Thats the spirit. Ask for what you want. Like a 4 hardness perhaps a 3.5 on a 5 scale

 

[gbupp]

My Mikawa nagura are a bit of a letdown in difference between each other atleast, I just can't tell much difference between mine. They are all just too similar and I don't think I gain alot by progressing through them. Maybe there is a hardness difference or I'm just not sensitive/experienced enough to feel it. I do like using them but think I can get away with just one of them most of the time followed by a tomo or fineDMT. It might just be the ones I own, plus I haven't got a Koma yet to compare with but I'm hesitant to pay $$$ for one as I'm afraid it will be the same.

I think this is pretty standard, and my personal opinion is that the progression tends to help people most by encouraging *enough* use of the nagura stage. Many people skimp on different stages when they should be there for longer I believe. They even all polish pretty similarly too.

In so far as let downs, I am going to be the opposite of the average consensus and say Coticules. I would pin that on my false expectations though. So often they are billed as really fantastic razor stones, and both of mine can produce very good razor finishes but, compared to other stones, I have to cater to them significantly. Some stones just feel built for their job (bevel setting, polishing, finishing, etc.) If I had entered into the equation with Coticules looking at them more as a "jack of all and master of none" stone where technique sways performance I probably would have been happy. But my lofty expectations for them often have made me feel like I am working around the "limitations" of the stone that I do not have to on other stones. I'm slowly breaking that feeling...but slowly. I have to push myself to reach for them to learn more.

The vast majority of Aotos are highly disappointing and love to generate rogue scratches.

Any JNAT below an Omura is universally disappointing.

Tajimado was also a disappointment, but again maybe some false expectations.

I've yet to feel the love for Suita stones that many do. I've tried quite a few of them in different breeds and hardness compositions but they've never meshed for me. Their often-higher price tag furthers the issue.

Thurigians aren't worth their price tag, but I wouldn't call them disappointing.

That is all up to today. I am sure I will be disappointed again in time! Sometimes though I enjoy banging my head against the proverbial wall trying to figure it out.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Oooo fun...

Charnleys I bought for razors. Never been impressed. Best one was ballpark as good as a yellow lake... and when I was starting out several old timers were saying they were the best finisher out there (while simultaneously selling a bunch on eBay). Love em for knives. Never touch a razor anymore.

Lynn Ids... A Charnley that doesn't cut as fast or have as good a feel... and occasionally is a little better finisher? No thanks.

Turkeys... Such a beautiful stone... and actually plenty good... But inferior to Washita in every way I care about.

Couple 10" Coarse cotis... Nothing like dropping hundreds on a massive coti only to find it's a subpar finisher.

Cnats... Tried them over and over because people kept claiming they had gotten a "good one". Orange lines? Thats a good one... Lots of squiggles... thats a good one... etc etc etc... After ten or so; never had one worth using.

Countless mystery stones; too many to count... rarely got my hopes up much, but often they're complete junk.

La Lune... So plainly inferior to Thuri's in my opinion... and they used to cost just as much. Not a "Bad" hone... but it's just out of its league when stacked against a Thuri... or even a good Coti.

My first Apache Grey... After Bayomant came in and called them... basically Thuris (great finish in 30 passes... easy to use... etc)... mine was a big disappointment. Played around with it for awhile and gave up... Bayo put the seller in touch with me and he sent me a MUCH larger replacement stone that was EXACTLY what Bayo described... It's a Thuri... maybe even faster... just without the buttery-perfect feedback Thuri's have. Every time I use it, I don't believe the edge will be as good as it turns out. It doesn't FEEL like a good hone under the razor... but it always finishes darn near perfect... But that first one was junk.

JGES Belgian Reform... It's basically a 60/120 grit synth... just awful. The unlabeled/unbranded reform coti's are great... JGES ones are garbage.

 

[gbupp]

Oooo fun...

Charnleys I bought for razors. Never been impressed. Best one was ballpark as good as a yellow lake... and when I was starting out several old timers were saying they were the best finisher out there (while simultaneously selling a bunch on eBay). Love em for knives. Never touch a razor anymore.

Lynn Ids... A Charnley that doesn't cut as fast or have as good a feel... and occasionally is a little better finisher? No thanks.

Turkeys... Such a beautiful stone... and actually plenty good... But inferior to Washita in every way I care about.

Couple 10" Coarse cotis... Nothing like dropping hundreds on a massive coti only to find it's a subpar finisher.

Cnats... Tried them over and over because people kept claiming they had gotten a "good one". Orange lines? Thats a good one... Lots of squiggles... thats a good one... etc etc etc... After ten or so; never had one worth using.

Countless mystery stones; too many to count... rarely got my hopes up much, but often they're complete junk.

La Lune... So plainly inferior to Thuri's in my opinion... and they used to cost just as much. Not a "Bad" hone... but it's just out of its league when stacked against a Thuri... or even a good Coti.

My first Apache Grey... After Bayomant came in and called them... basically Thuris (great finish in 30 passes... easy to use... etc)... mine was a big disappointment. Played around with it for awhile and gave up... Bayo put the seller in touch with me and he sent me a MUCH larger replacement stone that was EXACTLY what Bayo described... It's a Thuri... maybe even faster... just without the buttery-perfect feedback Thuri's have. Every time I use it, I don't believe the edge will be as good as it turns out. It doesn't FEEL like a good hone under the razor... but it always finishes darn near perfect... But that first one was junk.

JGES Belgian Reform... It's basically a 60/120 grit synth... just awful. The unlabeled/unbranded reform coti's are great... JGES ones are garbage.

@cotedupy suggested I use the Charnley a lot more like an Arkansas, conditioned well on the surface with water only. It changed my opinion of them from close to yours to "yeah they can do razors well". Maybe try it out!

 

[Chandu]

I would love to own a Charnley or Thurigians "just because". I once read an article on wood working (I sharpen tools, not razors with my stones..." anyway the article made a point of saying the Charnley's largely went into storage when the Washita and Arkansas made it to the Island.

My point being that natural stone wise, I think the Ark family was and still is the best dollar for dollar in today's prices. Other stones are cool, but I'm generally not a fan of any soft waterstone - which is most of them. My tools are tiny so gouges are quickly worn in anything soft.

 

[gbupp]

I would love to own a Charnley or Thurigians "just because". I once read an article on wood working (I sharpen tools, not razors with my stones..." anyway the article made a point of saying the Charnley's largely went into storage when the Washita and Arkansas made it to the Island.

My point being that natural stone wise, I think the Ark family was and still is the best dollar for dollar in today's prices. Other stones are cool, but I'm generally not a fan of any soft waterstone - which is most of them. My tools are tiny so gouges are quickly worn in anything soft.

Makes sense, wood workers are going to value additional speed over fineness. A Charnley is going to be similar to a hard fine Arkansas which is slow. I actually think many Chanrleys can be bigger for cheaper and pose the same performance, but they aren't going to cut like a washita will which is what was valued back then for the artisans in that field.

 

[cugel]

I bought what appeared to be a legit Maruka, boxed, stamped etc, razor hone size. Beautiful stone, a stunner for sure. Perfectly shaped, homogeneous, no inclusions or funny business. However it was sooooo soft. You could almost scratch it with a fingernail, I swear to you. Never was able to finish a razor on it. I gently set it down on a table one day and it just snapped in two. It went downhill from there; just kept on breaking down and now it's just in pieces. So yes, JNATs do in fact break down. 300 bucks down the drain. All I have are pictures of it now...

 

[duke762]

Did I mention how bad Norton Granite hones are? They really, truly, uuhhh, draw a huge vacuum. And they stink too. Phenolic maybe? Yuck......

 

[cotedupy]

@cotedupy suggested I use the Charnley a lot more like an Arkansas, conditioned well on the surface with water only. It changed my opinion of them from close to yours to "yeah they can do razors well". Maybe try it out!

Haha... I imagine @SliceOfLife has probably tried a boat-load of Charns in any way one could think of!

Threads like this are a bit of fun, and only really go to show that different people's tastes are different. For instance I generally rate Charns quite highly for razors but don't like them for knives.

Also that there are significant variations in all types of natural stones obviously, as well as sometimes in synths - a Chosera bought 10 years ago, is probably not going to be exactly the same as a NP today.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Yeah. Had some that were competent as razor finishers... but they weren't anything exceptional... The softer ones however ARE exceptional knife hones... so those are what I look for/keep. Wish I'd kept some of my glassier, more colorful Charns just for the looks... but the plain jane green ones that feel like a coarse Thuri are the ones I use.

Use them basically like a soft ark, but I like the feedback better and they feel faster to me.

edit: And that theory about speed being a big reason they got retired when Washita showed up meshes... Old books that contrast Charnleys to Lynn Id's basically call LI's a crummy cheapo replacement for a Charnley that isn't worth even using. My experience is they tend a bit more consistently fine... but significantly slower than a Charn. Definitely feel like the majority of the market when these stones were the big thing in the UK was starved for faster stones that left a decent edge.

 

[Oilstone]

Let down...

Many of the soft la grise style Coticules. Soft and not very fine at all. Did not like. Had others that broke down with cracking/flaking issues.

Naniwa pro. Had 1k-10k Returned to vendor because they were crazing like mad. Had dried mud in the desert going on. I could feel them they were that thick and I was drying them as recommended.

Norton Razor Hone. The $1000 one. Dropped a months rent to be hugely disappointed. Any other razor finisher ever bests it. I was hoping for a magical edge.

La Pyrenees stone, the one glued to the back of the BBW from Ardennes. Thought it would make a decent natural bevel setter. It is not. Got tennis elbow trying.

Taidea stones, just didn't enjoy them.

Welsh slate. I got a dud.

A jnat my friend traded me for, ozuku or ozaka? I'm not entirely sure but it wasn't very fine and I haven't touched a jnat since.

I'm sure I have other ones that were let downs but these are what I remember off hand.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Yeah, even the rare razor guys who really like the Norton don't think it's anything magic. Frictionite 00 is better regarded for razors. As is Panama and a few others. Norton's worth a fortune because of axe guys. Razor guys just can't fathom that it's worth that much UNLESS it's magic for razors... so they all have to try it at least once. And then we start looking to snag em cheap to flip to axe guys for a profit. I've owned 3-4 normal ones and two of the giant salesmens samples... never had any inclination to keep one. They aren't even that good... certainly not special.

Frankly, if I really thought I could have done it profitably... I'd have 100% cut one of the salesmens samples into 5 smaller stones to sell to axe guys and not felt the least bit bad about it.

 

[Oilstone]

Yeah, even the rare razor guys who really like the Norton don't think it's anything magic. Frictionite 00 is better regarded for razors. As is Panama and a few others. Norton's worth a fortune because of axe guys. Razor guys just can't fathom that it's worth that much UNLESS it's magic for razors... so they all have to try it at least once. And then we start looking to snag em cheap to flip to axe guys for a profit. I've owned 3-4 normal ones and two of the giant salesmens samples... never had any inclination to keep one. They aren't even that good... certainly not special.

Frankly, if I really thought I could have done it profitably... I'd have 100% cut one of the salesmens samples into 5 smaller stones to sell to axe guys and not felt the least bit bad about it.

How were the giant salesman ones to handle? I remember seeing threads on them but never have seen one in person..

Agreed though on the regular size ones cool to test out and own but there are better edges.

 

[kcb5150]

I had one with an absolutely pristine binder and some less so over the years. By barber hone standards, that well-preserved Norton was excellent for a barber hone but not a patch on any modern high grit synth finisher. I like the Brackett's but that really isn't a barber hone in spirit because it just isn't fast enough. The 00 is ok, the tonsorial gem is ok, deluxe no 500 is ok. I never tried super punjab so idk what the edge characteristics are like with that one for the things to go for norton money. Honestly, the ones I have found most enjoyable to shave off of have been really good examples of swaty-style b hones but they are so inconsistent even like for like.