Steep Angle Shaving - Why Would Anyone?

[musicman1951]

I don't know exactly what angle I use - which frankly shocks me, as I thought I knew everything! I'm generally a little on the steep side, but I occasionally experiment a bit to avoid going steeper and steeper. I quickly find out if the adjustment was a good idea or a bad idea.

I find my travel razor wants a slightly different angle than my every day razor, so I just use what works.

 

[Butch Waxx]

I don't know exactly what angle I use - which frankly shocks me, as I thought I knew everything! I'm generally a little on the steep side, but I occasionally experiment a bit to avoid going steeper and steeper. I quickly find out if the adjustment was a good idea or a bad idea.

I find my travel razor wants a slightly different angle than my every day razor, so I just use what works.

Now there’s a statement I like………”I just use what works”!

 

[Goblin]

@Goblin, if you like shallow, have you tried a Schick injector? They shave very shallow. That, plus the rigid blade, gives a very smooth shave.

Hi, no I never tried one. I have always been curious, but they aren't that common on this side of the pond and I figured it would mean buying into yet another blade system! I do have a "saved search" for them on a certain auction site and if ever one pops up at a keen price I will probably allow the RAD to strike.

You assume shallow is more effective and efficient because of some mental picture in your head.

It's not an assumption - it is something I observed to be true for my own shaves, and then reasoned backwards to consider why it might be the case.

My conclusion was that it's because a blade cuts most effectively when the edge is applied to the substrate directly in line with the direction of the cutting stroke. I don't think there's anything particularly contentious in that, and it's not really a case of YMMV or something that you have to visualise to understand - it's proven billions of times a day whenever someone picks up a knife and cuts something. There's no reason to think that laws of physics suddenly change because the blade is a razor blade and object being cut is a whisker.

In any case, he chose to dismiss other people's favorable experiences with steeper angle shaving. Note that I do not call it "riding the bar" because that is a caricature that misrepresents the goal. What you want is to find the optimal angle with a particular razor, wherever it may be.

I have not dismissed it at all. If you read again, you will see me acknowledging that I have an answer, and concluding that now I understand the rationale for using a steep angle. Previously, I couldn't understand why anyone would want to forgo the mechanical advantages of a shallow blade angle. Apparently, some people find the skin stretching effect of the safety bar more conducive to their comfort than a very acute blade angle. Okay - that might not be my preferred way of doing things, but I can understand the underlying rationale. I will now have to try a few shaving strokes by pivoting up from the bar to see if I can experience that skin stretching effect for myself, perhaps it will prove to be the key to razors that never quite click for me. There doesn't have to be only one right answer.

I also acknowledged earlier that I had probably been misled as to what "steep angle shavers" were actually doing by exaggerated illustrations, which you call out as being misrepresentative.

 

[NorthernSoul]

I have not dismissed it at all. If you read again, you will see me acknowledging that I have an answer, and concluding that now I understand the rationale for using a steep angle. Previously, I couldn't understand why anyone would want to forgo the mechanical advantages of a shallow blade angle. Apparently, some people find the skin stretching effect of the safety bar more conducive to their comfort than a very acute blade angle. Okay - that might not be my preferred way of doing things, but I can understand the underlying rationale. I will now have to try a few shaving strokes by pivoting up from the bar to see if I can experience that skin stretching effect for myself, perhaps it will prove to be the key to razors that never quite click for me. There doesn't have to be only one right answer.

I also acknowledged earlier that I had probably been misled as to what "steep angle shavers" were actually doing by exaggerated illustrations, which you call out as being misrepresentative.

Fair enough, it's good to try things out and see for yourself. That's really what I'm in favor of, anyway. Though you may want to approach a little closer to the neutral angle. Somewhere between neutral angle and the end of the range will probably be more comfortable.

In honor of this thread, I had a nice shave with the Muhle R41 this morning. Very close, comfortable, no nicks or irritation. The first few shaves with this razor things did not go so well. It took some trial and error. The optimal angle is just a matter of degree.

 

[Goblin]

Shallow/low/off-the-cap works well for me with so many safety razors that it surprises me when one doesn’t — especially when it looks like it would work best with a shallow angle.

When I started on B&B and everyone was using vintage Gillettes or relatively mild Merkur and EJ razors, riding the cap WAS the default mode, and it was recommended to new shavers. I even seem to remember some folks saying that pivoting down from the cap was recommended in some old Gillette instruction manual somewhere, although I don't recall ever seeing it.

I wonder if guard riding and pivoting upwards is another phenomenon that has been popularised by more aggressive, modern razors, due to their larger blade exposures?

 

[Goblin]

In honor of this thread, I had a nice shave with the Muhle R41 this morning. Very close, comfortable, no nicks or irritation. The first few shaves with this razor things did not go so well. It took some trial and error. The optimal angle is just a matter of degree.

Also in honour of this thread, I got my best shave yet from my Lupo 0.95 the other day by using a sharp blade that I trust, and then going a little steeper than I would normally.

I was still pivoting down from the cap, mind, but a good blade seemed to let me go a little steeper than I have been doing without things getting tuggy. I think I might actually have hit a "sweet spot" that I was probably 0.5° off on my earlier shaves.

 

[thombrogan]

I wonder if guard riding is another phenomenon that has been popularised by more aggressive, modern razors?

It’s for the Gillette Tech per their ads, but I keep the cap on my skin with that razor to unleash its whisker-nibbling fury.

 

[Cal]

Thom (@thombrogan), why do you have SASA in your signature?

 

[thombrogan]

why do you have SASA in your signature?

It still works even if I don’t prefer it.

 

[Iridian]

For me a steeper angle just feels more natural for some reason. A shallow angle feels less so.

Excellent example, could have full-quoted your posting.

Let me add another one: I have the Chiseled Face Legacy Titanium Razor, this one wants the shave to ride the cap.
It's a good razor, but it goes absolutely against my grain.

I rather love the Wolfman WR2 clones that shave steep. Or razors with leeway, like the Smart Helix Apollo Light. But going towards the cap irritates me.

I also like heavier razors/handles, so going steep and just letting gravity do the work instead of pulling down, that's my style.

But I have many razors and over many years and razors I have become adaptable. I use the razor with the angle that works best for it, but nevertheless, in the end I still prefer a steep angle for shaving.

 

[Cafebarian]

Just a thought about shallow cap riding shavers. If the guard is "floating" without full contact of the skin. would it be a fair assessment to say that the type of guard (open comb, closed comb, safety bar, and scalloped bar) be irrelevant?

 

[thombrogan]

would it be a fair assessment to say that the type of guard (open comb, closed comb, safety bar, and scalloped bar) be irrelevant?

For performance/efficiency/lather-management, yes. Irrelevant. For looking like Wallace and Gromit teeth, it’s crucial.

 

[Cal]

Just a thought about shallow cap riding shavers. If the guard is "floating" without full contact of the skin. would it be a fair assessment to say that the type of guard (open comb, closed comb, safety bar, and scalloped bar) be irrelevant?

And usually with NO contact with the skin. So, not only is the type of guard irrelevant but the blade gap (no matter how big) is also irrelevant.

 

[Slapo]

And usually with NO contact with the skin. So, not only is the type of guard irrelevant but the blade gap (no matter how big) is also irrelevant.

I don't think this is really true. Lather still has to be evicted, and can clog designs with poor lather flow-through just the same, because it's the nearest available space.

 

[Cafebarian]

And usually with NO contact with the skin. So, not only is the type of guard irrelevant but the blade gap (no matter how big) is also irrelevant.

Bingo. Caps are just to firmly hold the blade to the plate. The guard and gap effect the shave since it has contact with the skin by either being a steep angle or even a neutral angle...

 

[AimlessWanderer]

For those who support and utilise the skin stretching aspect of the comb (open or closed), I can't help feeling that you're using too much pressure AND your lather isn't working.

I cannot imagine how much downward force I would need to apply, to get my shiny metal razor comb to generate enough friction, on my lather, to stretch the skin between itself, and the blade following. That's not happening. Not unless I accidentally mixed up my shaving cream with contact adhesive. Even then, I'd still only have contact with the areas that weren't relieved to let more lather past.

I fully appreciate that the marketing geniuses that devised the razor and blade money-maker model, might spin that as an additional feature, back in the days when doctors recommended certain cigarette brands (again, if you believe corporate spin). I do not for one second lend it any credibility though, not when I've just been applying the slickest lather I can generate. The comb is there to stop the blade biting as deeply as an open razor can. End of.

Please note, I am not disputing that steep angle shaving works. It obviously does for some people... but not for that reason.

 

[NorthernSoul]

The comb is there to stop the blade biting as deeply as an open razor can. End of...

Comb?

Now featuring the unique floating blade design!

 

[Halfbeard]

I rather love the Wolfman WR2 clones that shave steep.

Do they ?
I do love my DSC AX-SE. All my shaves are shallow angle.
For the sake of science I'll do my next shave steep. Let's see how it goes. I believe it works. But I am very sure that that kind of shaving kills blade edge very quickly.
Kind of pity - wanted to push my Rubie over 40 shaves boundary !

 

[Iridian]

Do they ?
I do love my DSC AX-SE. All my shaves are shallow angle.

I remember how you wrote that you feel the blade. Now shave steep and see. Do you always shave shallow? I only do for razors that prefer it, like the Blackbird or the mentioned Chiseled Face Legacy razor.

 

[Iridian]

And usually with NO contact with the skin. So, not only is the type of guard irrelevant but the blade gap (no matter how big) is also irrelevant.

You and @Cafebarian and also now @Halfbeard made me go to the toilet again, all that thinking and imagining upset my stomach a lot... no kidding.

I am riding the bar, guess that's why I like OCs, this way some lather/gel gets through.

Rather lengthy edit now:
I guess it is maybe my habit of sriracha sauce at breakfast rather, but back on topic:
I prefer steep, and this is why I shaved with my Blackbird OC STEEP initially, and that absolutely does not work out nicely. It works wonderfully at a much, much shallower angle than I am used to, though.

But THEN I read some people like to shave with their Blackbird STEEP, and to this day I am not sure if they are not making fun of me and others, because I really cannot imagine how they do that, that they really like it.

^ maybe this last thought will help us understand this shallow and steep thing a bit better. I am often varying the angle with some razors, like the Timeless Slim. My cleanup mode is the steep scrape, but with a lot of hair, I start out quite some more shallow.

Maybe that's also why I am always so taken aback by the Henson. Sorry Henson lovers, again, no offense meant, but I don't get along with it. And I think it is precisely because it so very much LOCKS the angle in. I like to go "vertical", steep for a cleanup pass. That's often a scraping type of shave. The usual 30° angle should IMO always be guided by the guard. The cap cannot guide one, it just holds the blade.

I will now try being productive and less confused. Last time my brain had such a knot was when thinking about exposure and gap relations for adjustable razors...^^