Steep Angle Shaving - Why Would Anyone?

[Goblin]

This isn’t a dig – I know lots of folks favor this approach and I genuinely want to know what they consider to be the advantages.

I have always gravitated more towards shaving shallow and riding the cap. It’s the most comfortable way for me. Not only does it work in practice, but it also makes sense to me in theory.

Stated bluntly, to maximise the slicing capability of a blade, it must be necessary to present it to the base of the whiskers at as acute an angle as the razor geometry allows. I often find that if a stroke feels rough and inefficient, it’s because my angle has wandered too steep, and I need to shallow up again. It’s a phenomenon that quickly becomes obvious when shaving with open blades, but it applies to DE just as much. I also find that if a razor / blade combo is prone to chattering, then going as shallow as possible can help to mitigate the flex and chatter by making the stroke as efficient as it can be. Likewise, if a blade is borderline not quite sharp enough for comfort, going as shallow as possible helps it to slice through the whiskers as best it is able.

To put it another way, if there was a continuum with slicing at one end and scraping on the other, the closer you can get to perpendicular (shallow), the closer you are to slicing. The steeper your angle gets, the closer you are to scraping and the less efficient you are making the razor.

After all, you wouldn't dice vegetables holding the knife at a 45° angle to the direction of your stroke – it would obviously be far less effective than holding the knife perpendicular. So, why would you want to shave that way?

Given the above, I start to suspect that there may be more of a difference in how we describe things than in the angles that we hold our razors. Perhaps folks who claim to like steep angles are also using razors that put a lot of bend on the blade, so whilst the angle of their handle seems steep, the actual cutting edge is still shallow...but perhaps I am way off with that!

Another consideration is that it's only really possible to "choose" an angle with razors that have sufficient blade exposure to allow some variation - once you get to the point of neutral blade exposure, you are pretty much locked in to using a neutral angle because any deviation will break the contact of the blade with the skin. That means that whilst one person might approach a milder razor thinking that they are "riding the cap" and another approaches from the perspective of "riding the bar", chances are that the angles these two shavers end up with are likely to be almost the same, because that's what the razor geometry permits.

What say you, steep angle shavers?

 

[Slapo]

Over the years, I've gone from being a practically exclusively top-cap rider to a mixed angle user.
On the flat and gently curved areas of my face, I ride the top cap. On more acutely curved parts of my features, I tend to use a neutral angle or ride the bar.
This is because it makes it easier to avoid a random dig of the blade into the skin if my attention lapses, particularly around my moles.
Going ATG bar/comb first on the first ATG pass on the areas of my neck where hair grows flat against the skin seems to provide a little extra reduction so that I can ride the top cap on the next ATG pass without triggering the springiness of the hair as much.

For some razors, I use a shim sandwich (shims around the blade) to make it practically as rigid as an injector blade, especially if they don't clamp the blade that close to the cutting edge. This helps make safety bar riding feel less plucky.

I also wonder whether some people who claim to ride the top cap really do so. With most razors I have, if I really ride the top cap, I can't really feel the blade even with the most aggressive razors (think iKon Tek, R41 or PAA Evolution Aluminus) unless I go ATG.

 

[Goblin]

On more acutely curved parts of my features, I tend to use a neutral angle or ride the bar. This is because it makes it easier to avoid a random dig of the blade into the skin if my attention lapses, particularly around my moles.

This sounds like the sort of argument I was looking for - I can see how if you have blemish to work around, going a little steeper would be a good way to reduce the likelihood of diging in and slicing it off!

 

[BigJ]

I am more like a ‘politician’ with a neutral angle because it just works best for me!!

 

[Alex Jr]

There’s a lot of miscommunication around that subject. Here’s my take on it.

I’ve said this before, the safety bar is there for a reason and can only do its job if it is in contact with the skin at all times.

If you’re lifting the bar off your face, you are using a shavette with a cap.

What I notice from some folks is that they think steep angle shaving is “scraping”, handle pointed to the ground and all those ridiculous drawings that are just an exaggeration and far from the actual thing most of the time.

What some don’t realize is that with a lot of razors, a little steeper is more gentle and mild on the skin and not the other way around. And again, depending on the razor, just as effective.

Shallowing the angle beyond a normal range is sometimes taking away all the protection from the safety bar and making the blade dig more into the skin.

That’s why you see so many “I’ve used a steeper angle and the irritation is gone!” type of comment. (R41 for example)

The picture below is the BEST example I’ve found to why shallower is sometimes not the best approach.

Notice the blade against the skin. On the first picture, maintaining that EXACT angle, the only way to avoid the blade digging would be to lift the entire razor off the skin and that would also remove the safety bar away. Again, you’re basically turning the thing into a shavette.

A little steeper (second picture), and the blade contacts the skin together with the bar, no digging.

So I’ll say again, listen to the razor, think of its design and how it’s supposed to be used, look closely at it.

Don’t go for “shallow” is better or steeper is scraping and all those rules.

 

[StewB]

For me a steeper angle just feels more natural for some reason. A shallow angle feels less so.

Example for me: The Blackbird is designed to shave at a somewhat shallow angle; the flat part of the head is supposed to guide the shave. The "as designed" Blackbird angle feels a little weird to me. It gives me a great shave, but I have to pay attention and ensure I'm not using it with too steep of an angle. I know there are a number of gents that shave steep with it, but shaving steep with the Blackbird tends to irritate my skin so I avoid it and work to stay with the designed angle. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the Blackbird; it is a very fine tool with exceptional fit and finish. It's just that for me it's a little trickier to use due to the angle.

In contrast, I just got a Yates with the H plate. I used it for the first time today, and I can say that it gives me just as high of quality of shave as the Blackbird (maybe even slightly better), and works at a steeper angle that feels much more natural to me.

 

[lasta]

There’s a lot of miscommunication around that subject. Here’s my take on it.

I’ve said this before, the safety bar is there for a reason and can only do its job if it is in contact with the skin at all times.

If you’re lifting the bar off your face, you are using a shavette with a cap.

What I notice from some folks is that they think steep angle shaving is “scraping”, handle pointed to the ground and all those ridiculous drawings that are just an exaggeration and far from the actual thing most of the time.

What some don’t realize is that with a lot of razors, a little steeper is more gentle and mild on the skin and not the other way around. And again, depending on the razor, just as effective.

Shallowing the angle beyond a normal range is sometimes taking away all the protection from the safety bar and making the blade dig more into the skin.

That’s why you see so many “I’ve used a steeper angle and the irritation is gone!” type of comment. (R41 for example)

The picture below is the BEST example I’ve found to why shallower is sometimes not the best approach.

Notice the blade against the skin. On the first picture, maintaining that EXACT angle, the only way to avoid the blade digging would be to lift the entire razor off the skin and that would also remove the safety bar away. Again, you’re basically turning the thing into a shavette.

A little steeper (second picture), and the blade contacts the skin together with the bar, no digging.

So I’ll say again, listen to the razor, think of its design and how it’s supposed to be used, look closely at it.

Don’t go for “shallow” is better or steeper is scraping and all those rules.

View attachment 1743965View attachment 1743966

That razor looks like it's too aggressive for its own good! You probably have to use the safety bars as a lever just to prevent it from digging in!

Ideally a razor should be designed to shave shallow, yet still have the safety bar touching. Like a Tech which shaves between ~22-29 degrees.

Unfortunately, that kind of shallowness demands a very thin top cap, which presents manufacturing and probably durability issues

I see some (a lot) of modern razors with thicker caps curving the blade. As @Goblin mentioned, some razors shave shallow, even if you think you are using a steep angle.

 

[spacemonkey42]

The picture below is the BEST example I’ve found to why shallower is sometimes not the best approach.

Agreed, whatever works well for you is the best for you!

However, the two pictures show two different steep angles. The safety bar on the skin and the top cap off is the definition of steep. Both touching would be neutral and the safety bar lifted off is shallow. Shane shows a shallow angle earlier on in the video.

 

[Goblin]

What I notice from some folks is that they think steep angle shaving is “scraping”, handle pointed to the ground and all those ridiculous drawings that are just an exaggeration and far from the actual thing most of the time...

The picture below is the BEST example I’ve found to why shallower is sometimes not the best approach.

View attachment 1743965

I guess I am probably guilty of taking the "ridiculous drawings" at face value. That would certainly explain why I think it looks like an inefficient way of using a razor!

However, I feel like perhaps this image also isn't the best example of what a shallow angle looks like in practice - this looks like someone is just riding the bar with too much pressure. A truly shallow angle would have the topcap resting on the skin and supporting the passage of the blade, whilst the angle of the blade itself would be even more acute relative to the surface of the skin.

So, perhaps the drawings are mis-leading on both sides of the debate!

 

[spacemonkey42]

@Goblin, here is the Blackland video on angles.

And here is a screencap from that video of a shallow angle, just like you describe it

 

[Alex Jr]

Agreed, whatever works well for you is the best for you!

However, the two pictures show two different steep angles. The safety bar on the skin and the top cap off is the definition of steep. Both touching would be neutral and the safety bar lifted off is shallow. Shane shows a shallow angle earlier on in the video.

Agreed. That’s why I said a little steeper, not steep or shallow as a fixed value.

My point was that sometimes a little steeper angle can make it gentler, and not the other way around. Some folks relate steep to aggressive.

It all depends on the razor design.

That’s why I use every razor differently, trying to find the best comfort/efficiency based on the design.

But I agree with you, those pictures are not shallow angle examples, just a visual example of what a little change in the angle can do.

 

[Alex Jr]

I guess I am probably guilty of taking the "ridiculous drawings" at face value. That would certainly explain why I think it looks like an inefficient way of using a razor!

However, I feel like perhaps this image also isn't the best example of what a shallow angle looks like in practice - this looks like someone is just riding the bar with too much pressure. A truly shallow angle would have the topcap resting on the skin and supporting the passage of the blade, whilst the angle of the blade itself would be even more acute relative to the surface of the skin.

So, perhaps the drawings are mis-leading on both sides of the debate!

Ok, my bad. Sorry for the “ridiculous drawings”, but some are very extreme!

I agree with you on the shallow angle. But I would never use a safety razor like that. That’s just me. A safety bar has a reason to be there.

Lifting it off the skin for me defeats the purpose of a safety razor.

Again, personal thing.

 

[Galibier_Numero_Un]

Agreed. That’s why I said a little steeper, not steep or shallow as a fixed value.

My point was that sometimes a little steeper angle can make it gentler, and not the other way around. Some folks relate steep to aggressive.

It all depends on the razor design.

That’s why I use every razor differently, trying to find the best comfort/efficiency based on the design.

But I agree with you, those pictures are not shallow angle examples, just a visual example of what a little change in the angle can do.

Yup, due to a suggestion on the BORG thread, I tried going fairly steep (by perhaps 20 degrees?) when going ATG with my Gamechanger in the region from just below the corner of my mouth, and up through 10-15 mm of my mustache area.

I would have never thought to try this. Riding a bit shallow in this area didn't work.

OP - the vegetable slicing example is quite different. A carrot on a cutting board is quite different from a "soft" whisker anchored at only one end.

... Thom

 

[NorthernSoul]

Stated bluntly, to maximise the slicing capability of a blade, it must be necessary to present it to the base of the whiskers at as acute an angle as the razor geometry allows. I often find that if a stroke feels rough and inefficient, it’s because my angle has wandered too steep, and I need to shallow up again. It’s a phenomenon that quickly becomes obvious when shaving with open blades, but it applies to DE just as much...

What say you, steep angle shavers?

Well, you're wrong, of course!

Most razors have a range of acceptable shaving angles. Shaving at a steeper angle is just one end of that range -- it's not the same thing as scraping the skin. If you were scraping the skin, then you've gone too far to one extreme.

Most of these ridiculous drawings fail to capture what is actually happening on the skin surface, dynamically speaking. The skin surface is not an idealized rigid flat plane, it is a curved surface that deforms as the razor passes over it. The skin forms a small ripple in front of the blade. This is why we have safety bars, to stretch the skin in advance of the blade which helps avoid the skin getting pinched and nicked. So, with slight pressure and a sliding motion over the skin, the skin actually rises slightly to meet the blade, making the steeper angle effective and comfortable.

In my experience, razors that hold the blade more rigidly can work very well with a steeper angle. This avoids the "chattering" issue.

 

[nemo]

I have always gravitated more towards shaving shallow and riding the cap.

Maybe you haven't tried the Muhle R41?
That'll put ya in a steep mood.

 

[nemo]

I’ve said this before, the safety bar is there for a reason and can only do its job if it is in contact with the skin at all times.

If you’re lifting the bar off your face, you are using a shavette with a cap.

I couldn't have said it better!

 

[Galibier_Numero_Un]

Too long (time lapse) to edit the above:

Also, I think we should define shallow/steep from a neutral reference point. In general, I think this is the designer's intent - to recommend riding both the cap and bar.

The Blackbird may be the exception in terms of recommended angle by the designer (i.e. deviate from neutral with the Blackbird).

@spacemonkey42's diagram on post #10 shows how riding the cap can mitigate the aggressiveness of a high exposure razor. Going steep can also reduce the effective exposure. It pretty much describes the Blackbird to me

@APBinNCA - amirite about my Blackbird understanding?

The nominal 30 degree blade angle seems to be mean rather than hard and fast standard. Isn't the Tatara Masamune specified at 22 degrees?

... Thom

 

[Cal]

There's plenty more info on the benefits of steep angle shaving in the Steep Angle Shavers Alliance thread.

Bear in mind that safety razors wouldn't be safety razors without the guard (SB, CC, or OC).

King Gillette had a good grasp of how to use a safety razor (see Feature 4):

Of course, if you enjoy pushing the skin up in front of the blade (cap riding) to remove anything that isn't smooth in its journey, welcome to blood and irritation.

That's just my two cents and naturally YMMV.

 

[Slapo]

Maybe you haven't tried the Muhle R41?
That'll put ya in a steep mood.

Quite the opposite for me. I find riding the bar with a R41 yields way too much blade chatter. Chatter isn't an issue when using injector blades with the R41, but it still feels rather scrapey unless riding the top cap.

 

[Slapo]

You know, I wonder much of a difference skin pliability makes.
It makes me wonder whether people with more pliable skin (looser skin or more subcutaneous fat, soft moles or another reason) don't naturally gravitate toward riding the guard, because they benefit more from the pre-stretching by the guard.

Another thing that comes to mind is - not using the guard is perfectly fine if you're using similar technique as when using a shavette/straight.
More pliable skin? Stretch it (and e.g. bullfrogging is really a skin stretching technique of sorts).
It feels like the razor is skipping or drags? Hydrate your hair more, use slicker lather, don't shave areas without lather.
All of these also make bar-riding easier, at least for me, and make the cutting action smoother.

But with any razor, using the top cap as the fulcrum and riding the cap feels way smoother for me, even if the difference is just a few degrees.