How do you steep shavers get a smooth & satisfying shave?

[thombrogan]

I was inspired to shave steep last night – it’s been a while – I was more effective at cutting skin and less effective at cutting whiskers. Brain wouldn’t allow toe shallow angles I’ve been using the last few months. Split the difference between the comb and cap and the magic happened. Just like it did on my Injector last week.

My lesson specifically for me: “Shave like @LRod ”

 

[JustJames]

I hope you got a patent on that idea before posting. Sounds like a great way forward.

 

[NotBloomingAL]

Perhaps it's just a personality type. They probably also like very scritchy and scrubby brushes too. Perhaps more in line with this Bill Murray character:

 

[Brutus]

I think a lot of this has to do with language. Steep and shallow aren't well defined so one guy's steep might not be yours. And some users talk about the angle of the handle being steep, but that doesn't necessarily mean the actual shaving angle is. I'd guess that most people who like to shave "steep" are using an angle within the usable that you're talking about because razors just don't shave when they're truly steep.

I do agree, the steep and shallow terms are no clearly defined.

What I aim for, is best illustrated by this Tatara image.

 

[LRod]

I do agree, the steep and shallow terms are no clearly defined.

What I aim for, is best illustrated by this Tatara image.

View attachment 1891260

You aim for that with all razors?
Reason I ask is because the Tatara's are designed for that angle which is a bit different than most of the DE's that
shave at a 30 degree angle.
My Nodachi OC is quite different than the others!

 

[Brutus]

You aim for that with all razors?
Reason I ask is because the Tatara's are designed for that angle which is a bit different than most of the DE's that
shave at a 30 degree angle.
My Nodachi OC is quite different than the others!

No, it’s the concept that I wanted to illustrate.

To me, the ideal shaving angle results in a straight line that extends from the top cap to the base, with the blade in-between, just like in the drawing
On other razors, the precise value of the angle may be different, but the idea remains the same and most likely a long-time user will intuitively find the right angle.

The drawing also explains while I struggle with the concept of “steep” shaving, as I understand ”steep”.
If you start to increase the angle (beyond 24º in the Tatara illustration) you start lifting the cutting edge away from the skin. One could compensate for this with increased pressure, but this is about the last thing I want to do.





B.

 

[Cal]

The drawing also explains while I struggle with the concept of “steep” shaving, as I understand ”steep”.
If you start to increase the angle (beyond 24º in the Tatara illustration) you start lifting the cutting edge away from the skin. One could compensate for this with increased pressure, but this is about the last thing I want to do.

Firstly, consider this illustration:

THEN, bear in mind that (as opposed to straight razors) safety razors have guards. The reason for the guard (apart from safety) is to smooth the skin in advance of the blade:

Do consider that the difference between steep and shallow angles is minimal on most safety razors (with exceptions of course, e.g. the iKon Tek).

Then consider that the cap pushes the skin up in front of the blade. Here's a pic of the Feather Artist Club SS barber razor to show what I mean:

This is an ideal situation for the blade to slice off any moles/scars/spots/etc. I wonder why so many cap riders complain about blood and irritation .

King Gillette knew a few things about shaving with a safety razor (see WAY 2):

Basically, start with the guard against your face and raise the handle till the blade touches, BINGO; shave (no pressure). Ideally, the guard should be touching your face throughout the whole shave (that's what makes it a SAFETY razor).

The above shows why straight razors are easier to shave with than shavettes or barber razors; they don't have any protrusions (i.e. blade clamping mechanisms), they're just blade and nothing else.

That's just my two cents. You may (of course) think differently.

 

[NorthernSoul]

...Most razor heads are designed to give an optimal shave at the standard 30 degrees or some even more shallow than that.
Every razor I've tried & owned (a lot of them), I've tried using a steep angle since I test multiple angles with a new razor. None of them have given a good shave while shaving steep, zero!
They're just rough!...

Not exactly. Most razor heads are designed to cut effectively within a range of angles. If you are experiencing scraping, you have gone too far to an extreme angle.

Steep angle shaving contrasts with shallow angle shaving (aka riding the cap). Many people recommend riding the cap but this technique actually creates some problems for the user. First, any time you move too far away from the neutral angle, you are reducing blade exposure. This means you are not getting as close a shave as you could, unless you apply more pressure. Second, you are not taking advantage of the guard, which provides a firm point of reference for the blade while shaving. Shallow angle shaving, with increased pressure, actually requires finer technique than the neutral angle does, in order to float the blade over the skin and not get nicked. It helps to stretch the skin by hand to avoid getting sliced by mistake. Having the skin bunch up against the blade is a bad idea. With the guard pressing the skin, the skin actually rises slightly to meet the blade.

Steep angle shaving is still working within the designed range of shaving angles for the razor, IMHO. You get a blunter cut of the whiskers, but they are cut, not scraped off.

 

[JoWolf]

Firstly, consider this illustration:
View attachment 1891499

THEN, bear in mind that (as opposed to straight razors) safety razors have guards. The reason for the guard (apart from safety) is to smooth the skin in advance of the blade:
View attachment 1891509

Do consider that the difference between steep and shallow angles is minimal on most safety razors (with exceptions of course, e.g. the iKon Tek).

Then consider that the cap pushes the skin up in front of the blade. Here's a pic of the Feather Artist Club SS barber razor to show what I mean:
View attachment 1891529
This is an ideal situation for the blade to slice off any moles/scars/spots/etc. I wonder why so many cap riders complain about blood and irritation .

King Gillette knew a few things about shaving with a safety razor (see WAY 2):
View attachment 1891565
Basically, start with the guard against your face and raise the handle till the blade touches, BINGO; shave (no pressure). Ideally, the guard should be touching your face throughout the whole shave (that's what makes it a SAFETY razor).

The above shows why straight razors are easier to shave with than shavettes or barber razors; they don't have any protrusions (i.e. blade clamping mechanisms), they're just blade and nothing else.

That's just my two cents. You may (of course) think differently.

Thank you Cal for an expert explanation with illustrations. I fail to understand why shavers are hung up as to whether they shave shallow or steep. Neither is a badge of honour. A Comfortable Shave is a Badge of Honour. Thanks again Cal I’ll be book marking your post.

 

[KW Driver]

I'm absolutely in the camp of it depends, mainly on the design of the razor. as primarily a straight shaver for a long time, I also default to shallow.

awhile back I grabbed a '61 tech to finally see what they're about. threw in a feather and was getting good engagement, sounds, everything felt right. but it left a good bit of stubble until I started riding the cap. flawless, comfortable, autopilot BBS shaves when I ride the cap. it's a great travel razor since I picked pit up here for $5, or easy clean quick shave at the house. but I'll always default to shallower within the design parameters of a specific razor.

 

[Phoenixkh]

I often say, the Lambda Athena taught me how to speak "Razor"... the language. I thought of myself as a "steep shaver", but in actuality, I'm trying to find the sweet spot with all my razors. The Athena has a nice timbre for me and my ears. We all hear differently... some better than others, of course, so auditory feedback might not work for everyone.. I use the feel of the blade engaging and how it is cutting my whiskers, along either the aforementioned auditory feedback to determine the sweet spot. I don't pay attention to the shave angle unless I'm reporting back for someone.

I think I use a true shallow shaving angle with only one razor: the La Faulx Classic. I'm going to approach my Mother's Schick injectors the same way.... I have her G4 and G8... and have a couple E3s. I keep saying I'm going to get around to using them.. and I will, eventually.

 

[LRod]

I'm going to approach my Mother's Schick injectors the same way.... I have her G4 and G8... and have a couple E3s. I keep saying I'm going to get around to using them.. and I will, eventually.

The Injectors require no work in figuring out an angle. Lay the head (blade) flat or totally parallel to your face and that's it. The GEM's are almost the same too where they use a tad of angle away from being completely parallel.
And the injector will also work like that too if you choose. They've got to be the easiest to figure out!
Come on Kim, take one out already and give it a go!!

 

[Brutus]

Firstly, consider this illustration:
View attachment 1891499

THEN, bear in mind that (as opposed to straight razors) safety razors have guards. The reason for the guard (apart from safety) is to smooth the skin in advance of the blade:
View attachment 1891509

Do consider that the difference between steep and shallow angles is minimal on most safety razors (with exceptions of course, e.g. the iKon Tek).

Then consider that the cap pushes the skin up in front of the blade. Here's a pic of the Feather Artist Club SS barber razor to show what I mean:
View attachment 1891529
This is an ideal situation for the blade to slice off any moles/scars/spots/etc. I wonder why so many cap riders complain about blood and irritation .

King Gillette knew a few things about shaving with a safety razor (see WAY 2):
View attachment 1891565
Basically, start with the guard against your face and raise the handle till the blade touches, BINGO; shave (no pressure). Ideally, the guard should be touching your face throughout the whole shave (that's what makes it a SAFETY razor).

The above shows why straight razors are easier to shave with than shavettes or barber razors; they don't have any protrusions (i.e. blade clamping mechanisms), they're just blade and nothing else.

That's just my two cents. You may (of course) think differently.

What shall I say, except:
The likelihood of convincing me of the error of my ways is inversely proportional to the complexity and volume of the persuasion attempted. (Engineering talk for “keep it simple”.)
Or, take Occam’s Razor (which I am a great fan of BTW) in its bare bone version: "The simplest explanation is usually the best one."


If anyone needs more explanation;
- the first (three-part) image essentially proves my point in a much more convoluted image, yet it fails to explain why anyone should shave with a DE razor by lifting the top cap or lifting the base plate above the skin. Neither makes a lot of sense to me.

- Regarding the second drawing, I consider that grossly exaggerated; and
- regarding the third one (Feather AC SS), this is the least favourite of my Feather ACs razors and
- both images depend on pressure onto the skin to prove their point, which is something I try to minimize as much as possible.
- For the last image, I am not sure what that piece of vintage Gillette propaganda is going to prove.

And yes, I do agree with NorthernSouls’ point that safety razors are designed to work over a range of angles (otherwise Gillette would not have been able to sell so many), but there is no agreed-upon consensus how wide this range is and where the range of “steep” shaving begins. So, I leave it at that.


Please don’t be offended if I stay by my assessment; while anyone can shave whatever way he/she likes, please do not try to explain to me that “steep shaving” is something that I ought to adopt.




B.

 

[LRod]

What shall I say, except:
The likelihood of convincing me of the error of my ways is inversely proportional to the complexity and volume of the persuasion attempted. (Engineering talk for “keep it simple”.)
Or, take Occam’s Razor (which I am a great fan of BTW) in its bare bone version: "The simplest explanation is usually the best one."


If anyone needs more explanation;
- the first (three-part) image essentially proves my point in a much more convoluted image, yet it fails to explain why anyone should shave with a DE razor by lifting the top cap or lifting the base plate above the skin. Neither makes a lot of sense to me.

- Regarding the second drawing, I consider that grossly exaggerated; and
- regarding the third one (Feather AC SS), this is the least favourite of my Feather ACs razors and
- both images depend on pressure onto the skin to prove their point, which is something I try to minimize as much as possible.
- For the last image, I am not sure what that piece of vintage Gillette propaganda is going to prove.

And yes, I do agree with NorthernSouls’ point that safety razors are designed to work over a range of angles (otherwise Gillette would not have been able to sell so many), but as there is no agreed-upon consensus how wide this range is and where the range of “steep” shaving begins, I leave it at that.


Please don’t be offended if I stay by my assessment; while anyone can shave whatever way he/she likes, please do not try to explain to me that “steep shaving” is something that I ought to adopt.




B.

I'd have to agree with this!
Pictures and diagrams don't tell the whole story. Back to what I said before, every face/skin is different and some things will work and some won't for everyone.
Matter of fact, when finding an initial hair engagement angle for any new razor, I've always started with the top cap (and then move down from there) and not the safety bar as the pictures describe. And that engagement point is what gives me the smoothest shave.
So that puts me totally opposite from what was shown in the pictures.
As I initially mentioned, steep doesn't work for me no matter the razor used.
As I see it, the blade has to be as parallel to the face as possible for it to be smooth (same way a straight blade works).
And that's what works for me!

 

[titanrazor]

Thank you LRod, I should’ve have stated that a personal preference doesn’t work for everyone. I do use quite a few not so main line practices in my shave. Especially my pre and post shave routines. I have never considered them the best nor compulsory to an effective shave. I did however work very hard to establish best practices for my personal shave and hope some practices may be considered by others to improve their shaves. Discussion being the main reason enthusiasts like ourselves try to help in our understanding our shaves.

for positive exposure razor, riding the cap = shallower; riding the bar = steeper, all with minimal pressure. for modern razor design, the engagement angles from either way are only a few degrees different because blade exposure is so small with a few tenths of mm. having that said, the steeper approach is more scraping and steeper is more of slicing.
both scraping and slicing can do damage to our skin. although we tend to stop when scraping than slicing before major damage is done.
now for neutral or negative exposure razors, it really doesn't matter and will arrive at the same shaving angle. I myself prefer riding the cap because of more soap lather presented to the cutting edge.

 

[titanrazor]

for positive exposure razor, riding the cap = shallower; riding the bar = steeper, all with minimal pressure. for modern razor design, the engagement angles from either way are only a few degrees different because blade exposure is so small with a few tenths of mm. having that said, the steeper approach is more scraping and steeper is more of slicing.
both scraping and slicing can do damage to our skin. although we tend to stop when scraping than slicing before major damage is done.
now for neutral or negative exposure razors, it really doesn't matter and will arrive at the same shaving angle. I myself prefer riding the cap because of more soap lather presented to the cutting edge.

correction: shallower is more slicing.

 

[titanrazor]

correction: shallower is more slicing.

after I posted, I realize something, it is just playing with words (how you present the idea).
if you're riding the bar, steeper angle mean less blade engagement to the skin; shallower mean more blade engagement and less comfortable due to blade now digging into the skin (or more of scraping). if you ride cap, you know what come next,

 

[titanrazor]

after I posted, I realize something, it is just playing with words (how you present the idea).
if you're riding the bar, steeper angle mean less blade engagement to the skin; shallower mean more blade engagement and less comfortable due to blade now digging into the skin (or more of scraping). if you ride cap, you know what come next,

to be clear, shaving angle is defined as angle between the cutting edge and the skin with shallower is smaller angle and steeper mean larger.

 

[titanrazor]

to be clear, shaving angle is defined as angle between the cutting edge and the skin with shallower is smaller angle and steeper mean larger.

in other words; when you say prefer steep angle or shallow angle, need to also specify whether you re riding the cap or safety bar.

 

[JoWolf]

to be clear, shaving angle is defined as angle between the cutting edge and the skin with shallower is smaller angle and steeper mean larger.

In the early going many of us needed and wanted to understand all the basic mechanics and angles involved in our choice of blades and razors. Once favourites and kit combinations were established comfort became a stronger focus. My shaves use both shallow and steep angles. Once good technique and soft touch are established your finished shave comfort is now the judgement of your finished shave. Ultimately if I feel a bit of irritation on a particular skin area. I concentrate on lighting up on my touch rather than which shave angle I was using. It is easy to start chasing your tail when your thought process starts to over investigate problems. Most shave problems are resolved with a good review of the basic fundamentals of a wet shave.