So how slow is a black ark?

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Basically I’m wondering if a thinner fluid like ballistol on the convex surface is failing to keep a consistent viscous fluid layer under the edge where it contacts the stone.

You can dry hone on an ark, and I’d recommend you try it on a kitchen knife and then go slice something like a soft tomato or some tough meat. It is a KILLER slicing edge, but dry honing or what may be effectively dry honing based on lack of viscosity where it counts generally will not give you a smooth edge you want to shave.

Seems to me the easiest way to be sure you have an even viscous film covering a convex spherical surface is to drizzle water right into the middle of it while you hone.

I can hone two of my most used chisels a 15mm and a 42mm and see big differences in honing speed vs finish quality achieved if I try to use the same pressure and arks. That’s due to the pressure being distributed on a much larger bevel surface area. The 42mm takes literally all day on arks but finishes with a killer edge. The 15mm can be a touch up hone but if I use the same amount of force on the bevel as I use for the 42mm, the 15mm will only be a good enough edge for mallet chopping work.

Now think about your DCA, you’ve probably reduced the effective surface contact area by a factor of 10 or more plus you’ve opened up huge relieved areas on either side of the contact patch for a thin honing fluid to escape the pressure under the bevel.

If I’m right, you’ll see some improvement from running water and as light of pressure as you can manage because it should keep a consistent fluid layer all over the stones surface. If I’m off I’ll comment with theory #2

I think I need to do a lot more work with the soft side first, but I'm listening. Very interesting stuff, sir.

 

[Dzaw]

You guys are making my head hurt!

All of this bouncing around trying all of these different things seems like overkill to me. There are 1001 ways to skin this cat but I've always had the best luck by focusing on mastering a known technique before I move on to the next shiny object.

Do bear in mind there are at least two ongoing conversations in this thread. One is about the merits and downsides of a typical flat black Ark as a finisher, with me as the OP just dipping my toes in and learning one basic approach with Dans honing oil. As I figure out the ins and outs of this as a finisher, what grit level to finish after, what alternatives I have from films, etc.

The other ongoing conversation is between more experienced honesmen than I, who have multiple stones and are discussing more advanced minutia. I am learning from their conversation as they explore thoughts that my newer approach has given them reminders to express to their own peers. It’s turned into quite an informative discussion, but yeah, it could seem a bit lost in the weeds if you were trying to tie it back to the basics too hard.

 

[Basil]

Yeah sorry I kinda went off on a tangent with some of my replies. But I agree this thread is informative and I enjoy reading it to get ideas for my ark whenever it gets here lol.

 

[Namkcakram]

I’ve read about people using a progression of fluids on the black ark. Anyone try it? Dry to water to soapy water to oil. Interesting stuff.

Oh yeah man... lots of fluids. The difference is there and tangible provided you’re using the same technique and pressure with each fluid. If you vary your technique enough you can use a thick/viscous oil with lots of pressure, or a thin alcohol with no pressure and the variation in applied pressure dwarfs the difference in fluids.

In something like a DCA my theory here is that MAYBE the contact area is so small/fluid so thin that you can’t lighten pressure as much as you’d need to be at the ideal finishing point for the stone.

If the experiment works, you could always finish under running water or go buy thicker fluids til you hit on one that works.

I want to be clear here I’m not downing a DCA or Jarrods recommendations in any way. The theories on the stones performance are sound. I’m saying for this stone I’m sure Jarrod gets great results on Ballistol/water, but NONE OF US has his experience or exact technique on the stone so we might be accidentally setting ourselves up to struggle here with thin fluids.

 

[Namkcakram]

Do bear in mind there are at least two ongoing conversations in this thread. One is about the merits and downsides of a typical flat black Ark as a finisher, with me as the OP just dipping my toes in and learning one basic approach with Dans honing oil. As I figure out the ins and outs of this as a finisher, what grit level to finish after, what alternatives I have from films, etc.

The other ongoing conversation is between more experienced honesmen than I, who have multiple stones and are discussing more advanced minutia. I am learning from their conversation as they explore thoughts that my newer approach has given them reminders to express to their own peers. It’s turned into quite an informative discussion, but yeah, it could seem a bit lost in the weeds if you were trying to tie it back to the basics too hard.

Hey sorry man I didn’t mean to derail the thread at all! I’ve only got flat stones, but I thought it makes sense to talk fluids too since that’s often the next question after someone decides they love Arks... which sadly doesn’t happen often enough!

 

[Basil]

Oh yeah man... lots of fluids. The difference is there and tangible provided you’re using the same technique and pressure with each fluid. If you vary your technique enough you can use a thick/viscous oil with lots of pressure, or a thin alcohol with no pressure and the variation in applied pressure dwarfs the difference in fluids.

In something like a DCA my theory here is that MAYBE the contact area is so small/fluid so thin that you can’t lighten pressure as much as you’d need to be at the ideal finishing point for the stone.

If the experiment works, you could always finish under running water or go buy thicker fluids til you hit on one that works.

I want to be clear here I’m not downing a DCA or Jarrods recommendations in any way. The theories on the stones performance are sound. I’m saying for this stone I’m sure Jarrod gets great results on Ballistol/water, but NONE OF US has his experience or exact technique on the stone so we might be accidentally setting ourselves up to struggle here with thin fluids.

I have no experience yet with the arks so I will have to do some trial and error. See what works for me and what kind of edge I can get with the convex ark. I will probably start with the ballistol water mix just to make things similar to how the stones were tested. From there I can switch it up once I see how I do with it.

 

[Namkcakram]

So for fluids ballistol/water has a unique perk on a black ark- when mixed it turns milky white, so that on a black ark surface is probably the clearest undercut you can see on any honing setup. It’s also a solid thin fluid choice but I haven’t used it in ages so it’s hard to remember what else I liked about it.

Personally I run mineral oil mixed with everclear because I find other uses for both in the shop, they’re cheap, and I can dial the viscosity up or down within reason. A lot of people find mineral oil too thick.

Old school non-aerosol WD-40 is another solid thin oil choice.

I ran my black ark under running water again the other day to make sure I wasn’t imagining the smooth finish from the last time I tried it. I also was just too lazy to walk from my bathroom to the garage to get my little oil squirter can.

 

[kohalajohn]

Oh, this is so frustrating to read all this fascinating stuff, and be stuck on the far side of the world with my straights and ark back home, unable to try various techniques and discuss and learn.

Soon, soon...

 

[Basil]

Oh, this is so frustrating to read all this fascinating stuff, and be stuck on the far side of the world with my straights and ark back home, unable to try various techniques and discuss and learn.

Soon, soon...

Looking forward to your input when you get back and have time to tinker!

 

[Dzaw]

Hey sorry man I didn’t mean to derail the thread at all! I’ve only got flat stones, but I thought it makes sense to talk fluids too since that’s often the next question after someone decides they love Arks... which sadly doesn’t happen often enough!

Oh, no apologies necessary, it’s been informative, and isn't that the whole point anyway?

I never mind when a thread takes a few twists and turns, I aka one question, it gets answered, but it gets the brains going and we all learn a few things more than I originally intended - seems like a win to me!

 

[Dzaw]

Yeah sorry I kinda went off on a tangent with some of my replies. But I agree this thread is informative and I enjoy reading it to get ideas for my ark whenever it gets here lol.

Thank you good sir, I’ve learned quite a bit more here than I originally set out to ask, and you’ve had a hand in that!

 

[Basil]

Thank you good sir, I’ve learned quite a bit more here than I originally set out to ask, and you’ve had a hand in that!

Glad I could sort of help then!

Did you ever fix the razor you dropped? Any more success with the ark?

 

[Dzaw]

So I tried to start the razor I dropped on 5 micron film.

That’s a negative. Closer examination leads me to believe it must’ve hit the floor edge down, the whole length of the edge is kinda janky. It looks straight and flat, meaning no dings, chips, or dents, but it grinds weird on the film, wont undercut the water, and when I lightly strop on tissue to dry the edge, it comes away with fibers stuck to the edge. Looking at the bevel in the light there’s a line right at the apex, all along the edge, which reflects light at a very different angle than the actual bevel does. It would seem I punted this entire edge and will need to reset the bevel from scratch.

Not having the mental energy to fix that one last night, I brought out another razor I had that has been shaving nicely, but was starting to ask for a little attention and have that razor a few dozen laps at 3 micron, then a couple dozen at 1 micron, and followed up with a half hour or so on the Ark.

Going to shave shortly - here’s hoping!

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Oh, this is so frustrating to read all this fascinating stuff, and be stuck on the far side of the world with my straights and ark back home, unable to try various techniques and discuss and learn.

Stuck in some hellhole are you?

Sorry, hard not to rib you on your "environmental disadvantages."

So for fluids ballistol/water has a unique perk on a black ark- when mixed it turns milky white, so that on a black ark surface is probably the clearest undercut you can see on any honing setup. It’s also a solid thin fluid choice but I haven’t used it in ages so it’s hard to remember what else I liked about it.

Personally I run mineral oil mixed with everclear because I find other uses for both in the shop, they’re cheap, and I can dial the viscosity up or down within reason. A lot of people find mineral oil too thick.

Old school non-aerosol WD-40 is another solid thin oil choice.

I ran my black ark under running water again the other day to make sure I wasn’t imagining the smooth finish from the last time I tried it. I also was just too lazy to walk from my bathroom to the garage to get my little oil squirter can.

I can see how this stuff could make someone's head explode.

Subjectively the thicker more viscous oils like mineral oil don't appeal to me, but I can't say they don't work. I should buy some Everclear.

I don't know much about any of the lubricants except what I've tried and liked and found useful. I'm sure experience will continue to inform me, but I also love hearing what works and why from gentlemen way beyond me.

I would also like to find some non spray Ballistol that's not too pricey.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Namkcakram]

So I tried to start the razor I dropped on 5 micron film.

That’s a negative. Closer examination leads me to believe it must’ve hit the floor edge down, the whole length of the edge is kinda janky. It looks straight and flat, meaning no dings, chips, or dents, but it grinds weird on the film, wont undercut the water, and when I lightly strop on tissue to dry the edge, it comes away with fibers stuck to the edge. Looking at the bevel in the light there’s a line right at the apex, all along the edge, which reflects light at a very different angle than the actual bevel does. It would seem I punted this entire edge and will need to reset the bevel from scratch.

Not having the mental energy to fix that one last night, I brought out another razor I had that has been shaving nicely, but was starting to ask for a little attention and have that razor a few dozen laps at 3 micron, then a couple dozen at 1 micron, and followed up with a half hour or so on the Ark.

Going to shave shortly - here’s hoping!

You try stropping on leather? I probably wouldn’t put it on the nice side, but you’d be surprised what heat and friction from the rough side of the leather can straighten out. Sounds like you’re re honing either way, just pays sometimes to get it as straight as you can first.

Another option is running it on a polished kitchen knife steel or card scraper burnisher if you have one, but those are kind of oddly specific tools to just have laying around. My wife would probably say I’m the only man alive who “needs” those. Sounds like you may have hit hard enough square on the edge to actually deform it into a burr on at least one bevel face which effectively makes it a card scraper now.
If you don’t know what I’m talking about just google or YouTube it, you basically take a piece of spring steel, polish it, and intentionally deform the edge into a burr. It’s what crusty old timers did before sandpaper... just cut up old hand saw plates and polish them into scrapers. You can roll the burr back and forth pretty easily at room temp if you have a tool for the job that’s definitely tempered harder than the steel you’re deforming. Maybe a good American made screwdriver shank would work, but it depends on what you’re comfortable trying really. I have some razors I know would handle my carbide burnisher on the edge, and some I’d be concerned might turn brittle. Having the blade on a good backing like a board would be key.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Basically I’m wondering if a thinner fluid like ballistol on the convex surface is failing to keep a consistent viscous fluid layer under the edge where it contacts the stone.

You can dry hone on an ark, and I’d recommend you try it on a kitchen knife and then go slice something like a soft tomato or some tough meat. It is a KILLER slicing edge, but dry honing or what may be effectively dry honing based on lack of viscosity where it counts generally will not give you a smooth edge you want to shave.

Seems to me the easiest way to be sure you have an even viscous film covering a convex spherical surface is to drizzle water right into the middle of it while you hone.

I can hone two of my most used chisels a 15mm and a 42mm and see big differences in honing speed vs finish quality achieved if I try to use the same pressure and arks. That’s due to the pressure being distributed on a much larger bevel surface area. The 42mm takes literally all day on arks but finishes with a killer edge. The 15mm can be a touch up hone but if I use the same amount of force on the bevel as I use for the 42mm, the 15mm will only be a good enough edge for mallet chopping work.

Now think about your DCA, you’ve probably reduced the effective surface contact area by a factor of 10 or more plus you’ve opened up huge relieved areas on either side of the contact patch for a thin honing fluid to escape the pressure under the bevel.

If I’m right, you’ll see some improvement from running water and as light of pressure as you can manage because it should keep a consistent fluid layer all over the stones surface. If I’m off I’ll comment with theory #2

Today I took the "350" back to the stone (Double Convex Ark 8x3) again for an extensive honing session.

That and the shave test which followed are described in this linked post. Not sharp enough, but maybe some improvement.

Next, I took the edge back to the black side (finishing side) of the DCA. This time I did only x strokes under dripping water. Because of the way my kitchen sink is I couldn't drip the water into the long axis center of the stone, but only on the top end of the stone. Still, the stone stayed pretty uniformly wet with fresh water. I did a number of laps like this (not counting but maybe 50 or more).

Of course I stropped when I should have including after the water only x strokes.

The razor will await a shave test. That is likely to happen on Saturday unless I decide otherwise.

The black Devo pictured was very sharp, smart, and comfortable first time off the DCA. Other than the Devo the only razor attempted on the stone has been this wonky "350." It will be interesting to see how it shaves.

I'm not, frankly, expecting much. Maybe the next shave with the "350" will surprise me. If so, it will also confuse me. Why is this razor so difficult to hone to my satisfaction?

It's not like I'm doing anything here other than climbing a learning curve and having an interesting time rubbing steel on a rock. If I were already a super experienced and skilled honer mostly interested in getting a good edge with minimum work on the stones, I would have given up on this razor a while back.

As it is, I know of nothing else to try with the "350." If there is very significant improvement I might hit it with the water fed Ark some more. If not, I'l probably remove the razor from the group of razors I'm interested in fooling with, and try it again in a few years. No big deal either way, but I'd like it to be finally sharp. We'll see.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Ufgoodies]

Please take with a grain of salt, as i have not been able to purchase a trans black ark yet but...I've read that people often do a few hundred laps with them once they're already shave ready...

I know that you've shaved multiple razors, might it be a good idea to start this stone slowly? use your normal progression and get it as shave ready as possible, and then run a few hundred laps on the black? take out the variable of the unknown soft side, a see how it changes your shave ready edge that is known? having recently begun using my JNS which is another incredibly hard stone, it's much slower than anticipated, i'm still not sure i've gotten enough stone time myself, and i've spent about WAY as much time on a finish hone.

*Question for more experienced honers* Is this stone like a Jnat, where Gamma once said something to the effect "you hone, hone and hone until you can't think of anything but honing, and then you hone some more."

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Please take with a grain of salt, as i have not been able to purchase a trans black ark yet but...I've read that people often do a few hundred laps with them once they're already shave ready...

I know that you've shaved multiple razors, might it be a good idea to start this stone slowly? use your normal progression and get it as shave ready as possible, and then run a few hundred laps on the black? take out the variable of the unknown soft side, a see how it changes your shave ready edge that is known? having recently begun using my JNS which is another incredibly hard stone, it's much slower than anticipated, i'm still not sure i've gotten enough stone time myself, and i've spent about WAY as much time on a finish hone.

*Question for more experienced honers* Is this stone like a Jnat, where Gamma once said something to the effect "you hone, hone and hone until you can't think of anything but honing, and then you hone some more."

If I understand this DCA stone properly the black side is for finishing a razor which had its bevel set on the tan (softer) side of the Double Convex Ark.

My understanding is it would be less than optimum (and maybe fruitless) to try to finish on the black DCA were the razor's bevel set on a flat stone. The finish has to follow a convex bevel setting stone; it could be the DCA or it could be a convex coticule.

I could be entirely wrong and am open to finding out if I am.

Still, you make a good point. The black Devo which I successfully honed on the DCA was sharp before I honed it. In honing it I reset the bevel on the Chosera 1K (the bevel had previously been set with tape, not by me; I don't use tape), then I used both sides of the DCA. I was starting with a razor I knew could be sharpened to my satisfaction. With the "350" I don't know that.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Basil]

I was under the impression that you could do a normal progression and then go to the convex ark. It would be hard to go back to a flat stone after the convex because it makes the edge convex as well.

 

[Lord Fatboy]

Minimum 9000 laps to set the pre-bevel.