So how slow is a black ark?

[kohalajohn]

Jim, the double bottle of liquid Ballistol, on amazon is the cheapest way I have found. And since I use a bit more water than Ballistol, it lasts for a long time.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00A470FN6/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

And you are right, it i pretty awful here on the far side of the world. When I was swimming yesterday, there was only one sea turtle swimming near me, not the usual two of them.

And to answer the other question, yes I believe you can do mid range work on flat stones and then finish on a convex one. Doing the bevel setting and low range work on a convex is slightly preferable, as you have that slight arc in the bevel that gives you a titch more acuity. But that's a very small thing indeed.

I'm only really interested in getting a sharp edge from my convex black. Before I left, I found that thick oil and a very light touch was helping with that. Just having the razor give the surface a light high five as it passes over.

And it's not as slow as you'd think. The convexity adds a bit of speed to what would otherwise be a frustratingly slow stone indeed.

On yet another note, today I bought Jarrod's transclucent ark, concave. A tiny rubbing stone. I have realized that those synths like the nani12 really need a quick hone before every use. So why not use a concave ark and over time perhaps create some convexity in my nani12? Was only a ten dollar experiment. I'll let you know it goes.

Damn, now I have to get the sand out from between my toes. My life is awful.

 

[Twelvefret]

Minimum 9000 laps to set the pre-bevel.

yawn!!!

 

[Ufgoodies]

If I understand this DCA stone properly the black side is for finishing a razor which had its bevel set on the tan (softer) side of the Double Convex Ark

Jim

The way i understand it is once you go convex it has to stay that way. So if you finish with flat stones up to the point of convex, and switch at that point, it should be fine. You cannot go from convex to flat because convex allows variations in blade, while flat does not.

As i said i have not used one yet, so PLEASE let me know. i'm trying to arm myself because once i get money i'm TOTALLY getting a black trans ark from jarrod. Reading as much as i can to ensure there is a framework of knowledge built by the time i play with one.

 

[Dzaw]

We had an illustration I. Another thread about this problem. If you hone on a flat stone then try to finish on the convex stone, the edge apex won’t be making contact with the hone.

Jim, do you remember where that illustration was? It was a quick drawing, but a very good illustration of the problem.

 

[Dzaw]

You try stropping on leather? I probably wouldn’t put it on the nice side, but you’d be surprised what heat and friction from the rough side of the leather can straighten out. Sounds like you’re re honing either way, just pays sometimes to get it as straight as you can first.

Another option is running it on a polished kitchen knife steel or card scraper burnisher if you have one, but those are kind of oddly specific tools to just have laying around. My wife would probably say I’m the only man alive who “needs” those. Sounds like you may have hit hard enough square on the edge to actually deform it into a burr on at least one bevel face which effectively makes it a card scraper now.
If you don’t know what I’m talking about just google or YouTube it, you basically take a piece of spring steel, polish it, and intentionally deform the edge into a burr. It’s what crusty old timers did before sandpaper... just cut up old hand saw plates and polish them into scrapers. You can roll the burr back and forth pretty easily at room temp if you have a tool for the job that’s definitely tempered harder than the steel you’re deforming. Maybe a good American made screwdriver shank would work, but it depends on what you’re comfortable trying really. I have some razors I know would handle my carbide burnisher on the edge, and some I’d be concerned might turn brittle. Having the blade on a good backing like a board would be key.

Interestingly, I do happen to have a couple of scrapers and a butchers steel lol.

I hadn’t tried the leather approach on the damaged razor, but I might. Very busy day today, barely had time to get a shave in (and that was a bit of an odd shave too). I am kind of disgusted with having to repair this dropped edge - mostly at myself for being butterfingered, so I’m probably going to let it lie for a few days while I get some shaving mojo back.

Today’s shave was pretty strange. The razor in question had been shaving before, and I took it up briefly to 5 micron just to be sure it was in a position to fake an edge, then somewhat less briefly at 3 micron (60 laps), then for 30 laps at 1 micron before hitting the black Ark...

It really had a hard time cutting the hearty two days growth. I ended up doing a very light knockdown pass before my first full WTG pass. The whole shave long, it felt like the razor was having a hard time cutting, and I had to go back over several areas a few times.

Couldn’t argue with the results though. At the end of the shave I was quite nicely, closely shaved, and not a spot or hint of irritation despite having to pass and pass and pass some spots.

It may have had something to do with the soap though. I was trying a sample of an unknown brand, and couldn’t get a satisfactory lather that didn’t disappear In under a minute. Weird stuff.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

We had an illustration I. Another thread about this problem. If you hone on a flat stone then try to finish on the convex stone, the edge apex won’t be making contact with the hone.

Jim, do you remember where that illustration was? It was a quick drawing, but a very good illustration of the problem.

I don't recall it, but I agree. I've also emailed Jarrod asking his view of this question.

The way i understand it is once you go convex it has to stay that way. So if you finish with flat stones up to the point of convex, and switch at that point, it should be fine. You cannot go from convex to flat because convex allows variations in blade, while flat does not.

As i said i have not used one yet, so PLEASE let me know. i'm trying to arm myself because once i get money i'm TOTALLY getting a black trans ark from jarrod. Reading as much as i can to ensure there is a framework of knowledge built by the time i play with one.

The soft stones are far less expensive than the hard stones.

Jim, the double bottle of liquid Ballistol, on amazon is the cheapest way I have found. And since I use a bit more water than Ballistol, it lasts for a long time.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00A470FN6/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

Thanks. Ordered it just now.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

On yet another note, today I bought Jarrod's transclucent ark, concave. A tiny rubbing stone. I have realized that those synths like the nani12 really need a quick hone before every use. So why not use a concave ark and over time perhaps create some convexity in my nani12? Was only a ten dollar experiment. I'll let you know it goes.

Interesting. Link. Let us know.

 

[Namkcakram]

Today I took the "350" back to the stone (Double Convex Ark 8x3) again for an extensive honing session.

That and the shave test which followed are described in this linked post. Not sharp enough, but maybe some improvement.

Next, I took the edge back to the black side (finishing side) of the DCA. This time I did only x strokes under dripping water. Because of the way my kitchen sink is I couldn't drip the water into the long axis center of the stone, but only on the top end of the stone. Still, the stone stayed pretty uniformly wet with fresh water. I did a number of laps like this (not counting but maybe 50 or more).

Of course I stropped when I should have including after the water only x strokes.

The razor will await a shave test. That is likely to happen on Saturday unless I decide otherwise.

View attachment 983056

The black Devo pictured was very sharp, smart, and comfortable first time off the DCA. Other than the Devo the only razor attempted on the stone has been this wonky "350." It will be interesting to see how it shaves.

I'm not, frankly, expecting much. Maybe the next shave with the "350" will surprise me. If so, it will also confuse me. Why is this razor so difficult to hone to my satisfaction?

It's not like I'm doing anything here other than climbing a learning curve and having an interesting time rubbing steel on a rock. If I were already a super experienced and skilled honer mostly interested in getting a good edge with minimum work on the stones, I would have given up on this razor a while back.

View attachment 983069

As it is, I know of nothing else to try with the "350." If there is very significant improvement I might hit it with the water fed Ark some more. If not, I'l probably remove the razor from the group of razors I'm interested in fooling with, and try it again in a few years. No big deal either way, but I'd like it to be finally sharp. We'll see.

Happy shaves,

Jim

If the water fed ark has no effect then I’d have to believe there’s something funky going on metallurgy wise, most likely it’s tempered to ludicrous hard and there’s a whole separate set of suggestions for that.

 

[kohalajohn]

I have heard that honing an ark on water is slower than honing on oil. But yeah, also it sounds like you have hard steel there. A convex stone should not take that long.

 

[Namkcakram]

Also just for note I don’t own a DCA, but with a normal flat surgical black I won’t do hundreds of laps. You really should get the edge to a point where you COULD already shave with it before going to a finishing ark. My three methods are a Coticule, an old ark that’s probably a Washita, or a Tsushima black nagura. Any one of those three can make a less keen feeling but still shaving edge all on their own. If I had to put an arbitrary number on it I’d say with good technique(they all take different techniques) they can all refine the edge off my “8k” JIS Suehiro as far as shave feel goes. I’ll usually run the Coticule all the way to a full shave worthy Coti edge, then hit the Black ark. With a normal blade somewhere 20-40 laps thick oil no pressure gives you an edge where you can feel bits of a coti and bits of the ark. Somewhere 60-100 the Ark has basically taken over, but it’s still about the best ark edge possible and noticeably better than some other midrange options.

It cracked me up a few years ago watching a video on YouTube, this guy Dr. Matt basically made a whole video about getting the most out of a Coti and then at the very end said something to the effect of “if nothing else is getting you there, do a few quick laps on a trans or black ark to really max out your Coti edge”... bro you were almost there! Just commit to the Ark, do more laps, and convert over to the keener side of life! Or at least don’t halfway make it an ark edge but give all the credit to the Coti!

JNATs are a whole different animal to whoever asked if there’s a parallel. Totally different technique, totally different experience, totally different results. The ark edge is riding a very fine line that is basically as keen as possible while having the forgiving feel in use and the exfoliated post shave feel. JNATs can go keener IME, and you can sort of dial up the keenness or dial up the forgiving feel on your skin by playing with slurries and pressure but there’s always a trade off between max keenness and smooth forgiving edge feel. Chasing max keen edges on natural stones becomes way more troublesome the further down the rabbit hole you go, because you start noticing stone interactions that don’t make sense and the pool of razors that will hold your edges gets smaller and smaller...

IME a black ark edge that was also done on a natural midrange leaves nothing to be desired. People always try to chase the next keener edge, but when you compare the best Coti, Ark, and JNAT edges it’s like debating the best flavors of ice cream. You’ve already crossed past the minimum requirements to shave and into pure excess luxury, now you’re just talking specific preferences.

 

[Twelvefret]

Also just for note I don’t own a DCA, but with a normal flat surgical black I won’t do hundreds of laps. You really should get the edge to a point where you COULD already shave with it before going to a finishing ark. My three methods are a Coticule, an old ark that’s probably a Washita, or a Tsushima black nagura. Any one of those three can make a less keen feeling but still shaving edge all on their own. If I had to put an arbitrary number on it I’d say with good technique(they all take different techniques) they can all refine the edge off my “8k” JIS Suehiro as far as shave feel goes. I’ll usually run the Coticule all the way to a full shave worthy Coti edge, then hit the Black ark. With a normal blade somewhere 20-40 laps thick oil no pressure gives you an edge where you can feel bits of a coti and bits of the ark. Somewhere 60-100 the Ark has basically taken over, but it’s still about the best ark edge possible and noticeably better than some other midrange options.

It cracked me up a few years ago watching a video on YouTube, this guy Dr. Matt basically made a whole video about getting the most out of a Coti and then at the very end said something to the effect of “if nothing else is getting you there, do a few quick laps on a trans or black ark to really max out your Coti edge”... bro you were almost there! Just commit to the Ark, do more laps, and convert over to the keener side of life! Or at least don’t halfway make it an ark edge but give all the credit to the Coti!

JNATs are a whole different animal to whoever asked if there’s a parallel. Totally different technique, totally different experience, totally different results. The ark edge is riding a very fine line that is basically as keen as possible while having the forgiving feel in use and the exfoliated post shave feel. JNATs can go keener IME, and you can sort of dial up the keenness or dial up the forgiving feel on your skin by playing with slurries and pressure but there’s always a trade off between max keenness and smooth forgiving edge feel. Chasing max keen edges on natural stones becomes way more troublesome the further down the rabbit hole you go, because you start noticing stone interactions that don’t make sense and the pool of razors that will hold your edges gets smaller and smaller...

IME a black ark edge that was also done on a natural midrange leaves nothing to be desired. People always try to chase the next keener edge, but when you compare the best Coti, Ark, and JNAT edges it’s like debating the best flavors of ice cream. You’ve already crossed past the minimum requirements to shave and into pure excess luxury, now you’re just talking specific preferences.

The problem is testing. In order to test what you are doing with any stone you have to hone, strop, and shave. If you are a wood worker or such, testing is less time consuming and complicated.

Right now I am convinced that the Coticule is not going to produce the same sharpness as the Thuringian without doing some laps on chromium oxide or diamond paste, then, its not the same sharp or comfort.

Of course compounding this is the steel, bevel quality, and day to day user skills variability. What I am hearing from those that have years of shaving off their edges is they settled into something they liked and stuck with it.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

If the water fed ark has no effect then I’d have to believe there’s something funky going on metallurgy wise, most likely it’s tempered to ludicrous hard and there’s a whole separate set of suggestions for that.

If the water fed Ark has had no significant effect I'm giving up on the "350" for now.

I have heard that honing an ark on water is slower than honing on oil. But yeah, also it sounds like you have hard steel there. A convex stone should not take that long.

I have not much experience with the stone, but I think you're right.

Also just for note I don’t own a DCA, but with a normal flat surgical black I won’t do hundreds of laps. You really should get the edge to a point where you COULD already shave with it before going to a finishing ark. My three methods are a Coticule, an old ark that’s probably a Washita, or a Tsushima black nagura. Any one of those three can make a less keen feeling but still shaving edge all on their own. If I had to put an arbitrary number on it I’d say with good technique(they all take different techniques) they can all refine the edge off my “8k” JIS Suehiro as far as shave feel goes. I’ll usually run the Coticule all the way to a full shave worthy Coti edge, then hit the Black ark. With a normal blade somewhere 20-40 laps thick oil no pressure gives you an edge where you can feel bits of a coti and bits of the ark. Somewhere 60-100 the Ark has basically taken over, but it’s still about the best ark edge possible and noticeably better than some other midrange options.

It cracked me up a few years ago watching a video on YouTube, this guy Dr. Matt basically made a whole video about getting the most out of a Coti and then at the very end said something to the effect of “if nothing else is getting you there, do a few quick laps on a trans or black ark to really max out your Coti edge”... bro you were almost there! Just commit to the Ark, do more laps, and convert over to the keener side of life! Or at least don’t halfway make it an ark edge but give all the credit to the Coti!

JNATs are a whole different animal to whoever asked if there’s a parallel. Totally different technique, totally different experience, totally different results. The ark edge is riding a very fine line that is basically as keen as possible while having the forgiving feel in use and the exfoliated post shave feel. JNATs can go keener IME, and you can sort of dial up the keenness or dial up the forgiving feel on your skin by playing with slurries and pressure but there’s always a trade off between max keenness and smooth forgiving edge feel. Chasing max keen edges on natural stones becomes way more troublesome the further down the rabbit hole you go, because you start noticing stone interactions that don’t make sense and the pool of razors that will hold your edges gets smaller and smaller...

IME a black ark edge that was also done on a natural midrange leaves nothing to be desired. People always try to chase the next keener edge, but when you compare the best Coti, Ark, and JNAT edges it’s like debating the best flavors of ice cream. You’ve already crossed past the minimum requirements to shave and into pure excess luxury, now you’re just talking specific preferences.

This is a very helpful post (above). Lots of experience reflected here. Much to learn from it. Thank you very much, sir.

The problem is testing. In order to test what you are doing with any stone you have to hone, strop, and shave. If you are a wood worker or such, testing is less time consuming and complicated.

Right now I am convinced that the Coticule is not going to produce the same sharpness as the Thuringian without doing some laps on chromium oxide or diamond paste, then, it's not the same sharp or comfort.

Of course compounding this is the steel, bevel quality, and day to day user skills variability. What I am hearing from those that have years of shaving off their edges is they settled into something they liked and stuck with it.

Testing is for sure an issue.

From what I understand different coticules produce different edges. Some are sharper finishers.

From my experience my rectangular coticule can produce a very sharp edge at least on one of my blades. Is that the steel or my technique that day or what? I don't know. I also can't compare it to a Thuringian edge, but I know it didn't need to be further sharpened on pasted strops.

I suspect some old timers, maybe most, settled into using their tools and methods and nothing else, but some seem to like to experiment and play with new or unusual rocks and/or synthetics.

Happy shaves to everyone,

Jim

 

[Dzaw]

IME a black ark edge that was also done on a natural midrange leaves nothing to be desired. People always try to chase the next keener edge, but when you compare the best Coti, Ark, and JNAT edges it’s like debating the best flavors of ice cream. You’ve already crossed past the minimum requirements to shave and into pure excess luxury, now you’re just talking specific preferences.

This mornings shave was illustrative of a question I am trying to figure out how to ask, and it relates to this post which I quoted;

Today I got my first irritation and razorburn from an edge off of the black Ark. The burn and irritation are mostly because I decided to deliberately push this edge and see just how forgiving is it. I demanded nothing less than a full face ATG BBS shave, including the fool's pass. I got what I was after, but there was a little irritation in some of the harder to get bbs spots. Not a lot mind you, but just enough to notice an hour later.

The razor in question was the keenest, most aggressive edge I own. Straight off 0.1 micron CBN in balsa, this edge was aggressively treetopping arm hair at a quarter inch off the skin. I gave it 400 full laps on the black Ark with Dan's Honing oil last night. This morning, I noticed a few things;

1: The sharper starting point DEFINITELY made this razor cut much more readily than other razors I've touched up on the black Ark. Each was shaving satisfactorily before hitting the Ark, but this one was aggressive and unforgiving. The pre-Ark state of each edge was DEFINITELY reflected in the post-Ark edge.

2: Each edge became less keen than before the Ark. The least sharp among them gave me trouble cutting after the Ark treatment, but that one needed some help before hand anyhow. The sharpest of them is still quite keen post Ark. none of these razors, not even today's will treetop arm hair after hitting the Arkansas stone. In sharpness tests, they feel like not shave ready edges.

3: Each edge became MUCH much much more forgiving to shave with. If I had learned to shave on edges like these, my razor handling technique wouldn't have progressed very far, it's like shaving with training wheels. I rinse off after a shave thinking I must need a fourth pass, but magically there's no whiskers left to shave!

The question I am trying to figure out how to ask is somewhere in the space referenced by the above observations. Something to do with pre/post Ark edge, the right preparation, and whether or not the Ark is going to be a sufficient stone to keep edges in good shaving order when they don't shave as well as the do freshly honed.

 

[Twelvefret]

For me, two WTG face, one ATG neck and WTG neck, and whatever it take with plenty of lather on the middle face feels better overall throughout the day. The last time I went for a BBS, my face felt like leather and really burned when I tried the Arko Steve Clark sent. My face was raw.

 

[Andy77]

I have no experience yet with the arks so I will have to do some trial and error. See what works for me and what kind of edge I can get with the convex ark. I will probably start with the ballistol water mix just to make things similar to how the stones were tested. From there I can switch it up once I see how I do with it.

Progression of fluids. Hmmm.

I use plain water followed by soapy water (usually just a dab of whatever cream I have going) on my Dan's Surgical black ark. About 100 laps or so and I really enjoy the edge.

 

[Basil]

Progression of fluids. Hmmm.

I use plain water followed by soapy water (usually just a dab of whatever cream I have going) on my Dan's Surgical black ark. About 100 laps or so and I really enjoy the edge.

If it’s not broke don’t fix it! Haha that being said I will be experimenting with whatever I can find once I get mine. Lol

 

[Twelvefret]

If it’s not broke don’t fix it! Haha that being said I will be experimenting with whatever I can find once I get mine. Lol

Bat milk is suppose to be the best.

 

[Basil]

Wombaroo Bat Milk Replacer 165g 500ml


Think this would work?

 

[Basil]

In all seriousness. I have one of those old olive oil soap bars that I do nothing with so I plan to use it to rub over the black ark and just add a little water to it.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

If I understand this DCA stone properly the black side is for finishing a razor which had its bevel set on the tan (softer) side of the Double Convex Ark.

My understanding is it would be less than optimum (and maybe fruitless) to try to finish on the black DCA were the razor's bevel set on a flat stone. The finish has to follow a convex bevel setting stone; it could be the DCA or it could be a convex coticule.

I could be entirely wrong and am open to finding out if I am.

Still, you make a good point. The black Devo which I successfully honed on the DCA was sharp before I honed it. In honing it I reset the bevel on the Chosera 1K (the bevel had previously been set with tape, not by me; I don't use tape), then I used both sides of the DCA. I was starting with a razor I knew could be sharpened to my satisfaction. With the "350" I don't know that.

Happy shaves,

Jim

I asked Jarrod about this. He sent me a very lengthy reply. I will post bits of it when I have figured out exactly what everything he said means. Believe me, it's a book.

Anyway, I'm pretty certain he believes it is possible to easily enough hone on a convex finishing stone a razor which was previously honed on a flat stone. I could be misunderstanding exactly what he's saying. If so, I will make sure to correct what I just said.

One can't expect to refresh the edge off a convexed stone with a flat stone. I think we've all known that for a while.

It may be that Jarrod's response contains deeper information. Well, actually I'm sure it contains deeper information but I'm not sure exactly how to boil it down. I don't want to quote the entire response, but I'll try, in the next day or three, to gather the nuggets most germane to this conversation.

In other words, I was wrong, but I've learned something.

There's more to the story (later).

Happy shaves,

Jim