So how slow is a black ark?

[Dzaw]

I just got my black Arkansas stone from Dan’s. I dressed it on a pack of 800 grit on tempered glass.

Then I used a sparing amount of Dans honing oil, and began honing on my wade and butcher. This razor needs some touching up, as shave quality has been starting to decline. However, I forgot u til well into honing that I had previously honed it with one layer of tape on the spine.

600 laps later, I am now seeing it undercut the oil pretty ok. Do you thing that would have been sufficient to reform the bevel, or should I take it back to a tougher grit on films? Maybe just add tape then run a couple hundred taped laps?

I keep reading “Arks cut slow” but no one seems to be able to say “how slow”...

 

[SliceOfLife]

You won’t be able to bevel a razor on one.

 

[Earcutter]

I’d probably start over using your regular system, but then I’m a little compulsive that way. Moreover, I’d shave with it too before taking it to the ark, just to make sure you put a decent edge on it if you’ve never used one before. It’ll give you before and after knowledge.

As for your “how slow” question. You should be able to see the steel polish. There’s no harm in “overusing” a black. You’ll just end up polishing it more and more. It’s a great stone for guys who love the act because, by rights, no real reason to stop save to shave.

I bet if you threw on some tape and had at it you’d be fine too. Congrats on the black!

 

[Dzaw]

Thanks guys!

I had already honed this razor up using my previous system (films then balsa) but it wasn't cutting as easily or smoothly as it had, so I decided it would be the first to see the Ark.

I'm going to throw a layer of tape on the spine and hit the Ark again to be sure the actual apex gets the correct attention - I want to try the Arkansas edge for tomorrows shave.

 

[cugel]

I think if you take a razor to a black ark, it should already be able to undercut oil. My stone is slow and I approach it with care and caution so each stroke is on the money. I finish on it for 10 minutes; don't count strokes.

 

[Namkcakram]

I’m gonna go against the grain here and say you CAN bevel on a surgical black ark. If you start now you’ll be shaving by Memorial Day weekend.

Plenty of other arks that can be had dirt cheap that will bevel things beautifully but a bit slowly. You can dress the top of an ark with pretty aggressive grit sandpaper and use thin oil and pressure and move things along ok. Lapping films to 1mu should get you into surgical black range. One of my favorite combos is taking a razor 99% of the way finished on a Coticule and 1% on a surgical black ark.

 

[duke762]

One of my favorite combos is taking a razor 99% of the way finished on a Coticule and 1% on a surgical black ark.

+1!!

 

[duke762]

Here's what I've been experiencing. Starting with a perfectly flat, freshly lapped to 600 grit, Black/Trans Ark. I've done this with both. Also razors start as sharp as I can get off a Coticule. First honing session is of course, the fastest, but you may feel the hone settle in near the end. Feed back at this point will be that the hone may actually be doing something until it's done. I'm always amazed at how sound and feed back fade away to a point where you feel like you're honing on glass. A clear signal you are finished or nearly finished.

Sharpening sessions 2 thru ..let's say 6 or 8 are in the zone with feed back, and clear sensation of being finished. The more sessions, the more any speed the stone had drops. Sensation and feed back drop also. This will continue dropping off to the point of frustration for me and lots of others. I take mine back to the lap and re-dress it when this happens and I'm amazed how keen, and consistent my edges have become. They look much better under the scope also.

Every one will have a favorite method of Ark preparation. Speed is subjective. My stones, I don't feel are all that slow in fresh condition.

Sounds like you have your stone prepped well. Get the bevel set well on lower grit stones, take your time through the mid range, nail a great edge before going to the Ark. It's worth the effort in my opinion. YMMV Keep in mind that I am a severe Arkaholic and my judgement may be skewed.

 

[Dzaw]

So this razor was shaving just fine, but over time the shave quality was starting to drop. I am thinking the bevel is fine, it just needs some attention, not a new bevel.

So after all that, I decided to go ahead and put tape on the spine and hit the actual apex for a while on the ark. I did 400 laps with tape.

About to shower and shave - wish me luck!

 

[MO1]

If you need tape to hit the apex the bevel isnt properly set, if you tape then you will be bound by it or hit lower grit stones without it to reset it.
I hope your shave goes well though!
If not i atleast would hit the lower grit stones without tape and reset it.

 

[Dzaw]

I used tape because it had previously been honed with tape.

The shave was something else! I think this razor is going to need additional attention, but it shows great promise.

The middle third or so of the blade still doesn't want to cut at all. This was not a problem after initial honing a month or so ago, but the middle third is where most of the degradation in shave quality happened. I just figured that's probably due to this being the area of the blade I used most.

The thirds towards both heel and toe however shaved keenly and smoothly. Much more so than I am accustomed to.

This edge really doesn't want to cut skin, but it does like a less hyper shallow angle than I used to shave with. With the edge right from 0.1 micron CBN in balsa, I would shave with the blade practically laying flat on my skin - like I were honing it on my face. With the edge right off the black Ark, it likes a somewhat steeper angle. 1.5 to maybe 2 spine widths. Not steep by any means, but less ridiculously shallow.

Initially, I noted that I needed to apply actual pressure to make this edge cut whiskers rather than just skip over them. Over the course of the shave, I got the angle pinned down a bit better, and discovered how dull the center third is. I managed a really REALLY comfortable SAS. It sure could be a closer shave, but seldom have I had a more comfortable shave. I'll take it!

I think I will re-bevel this razor without tape starting at 600 grit, and take it through the film progression, and then finish on the Ark. We'll see then if the final edge lives up to the promise that the outer thirds show!

 

[Twelvefret]

I’m thinking I’m too old to have a black Arkansas stone.

 

[Dzaw]

I’m thinking I’m too old to have a black Arkansas stone.

Naw, this is partially the razor (stubborn, hard steel that takes a while to hone. Also a very near wedge grind that was difficult to hone the first time, which was why I ended up honing with tape). And partially my own fault (forgetting I had originally honed with tape, essentially wasting the first several hundreds of laps).

Once I smarten up and stop wasting my time and effort, the edge left behind showed quite a lot of promise. If I can get the whole length shaving as well as the outer thirds, this will rapidly become my favorite shaver (until I then proceed to re finish the rest on this new rock).

 

[Namkcakram]

Yeah when you say the bevel doesn’t need reset but then 400 finisher laps on tape doesn’t get a consistent bevel... the bevel does need reset.

Congrats on initial ark success though! I think the finisher Arks slot in perfectly between a stereotypical Coti edge and a stereotypical JNAT edge. They seem to finish a bit keener and a bit more aggressive than a coti, but a bit less keen and a bit less aggressive than alot of JNAT finishers (that’s a very sweeping generalization though). Ark edges might honestly be my overall favorite, but only on blades that are tempered softer and pick up an edge pretty quickly.

When your bevel work and midrange are on point, you can progress up to a surgical black and do way less than 400 laps. You really want to take things to a high level synthetic or solid midrange natural though. I’ve put a full Coti edge on a razor then maybe 30-50 laps on my surgical black and ended up in nirvana, but my arks are all pretty huge so my 30 laps may need to be adjusted up or down for you. They are massively underrated stones.

 

[Joshua223]

Sorry if I'm repeating others, but the speed an ark cut varies greatly on how much it is burnished. I know of one guy that will use one side (roughed up with a diamond plate) to set the bevel, then finish on the other (burnished) side. Two sides of the same stone behaving completely different. I don't have any real experience with arks, but I love the unique qualities they possess. They don't wear like most stones and the finish they provide can improve with use.

They seem to finish a bit keener and a bit more aggressive than a coti, but a bit less keen and a bit less aggressive than alot of JNAT finishers (that’s a very sweeping generalization though). Ark edges might honestly be my overall favorite, but only on blades that are tempered softer and pick up an edge pretty quickly.

When your bevel work and midrange are on point, you can progress up to a surgical black and do way less than 400 laps. You really want to take things to a high level synthetic or solid midrange natural though. I’ve put a full Coti edge on a razor then maybe 30-50 laps on my surgical black and ended up in nirvana, but my arks are all pretty huge so my 30 laps may need to be adjusted up or down for you. They are massively underrated stones.

Sweeping generalization? Those can be the best kind! lol
Sounds like you have experimented with hones across the spectrum. That definitely gives you a different perspective than someone like me that has only used two finishers

 

[Namkcakram]

Sorry if I'm repeating others, but the speed an ark cut varies greatly on how much it is burnished. I know of one guy that will use one side (roughed up with a diamond plate) to set the bevel, then finish on the other (burnished) side. Two sides of the same stone behaving completely different. I don't have any real experience with arks, but I love the unique qualities they possess. They don't wear like most stones and the finish they provide can improve with use.

Sweeping generalization? Those can be the best kind! lol
Sounds like you have experimented with hones across the spectrum. That definitely gives you a different perspective than someone like me that has only used two finishers

I haven’t used as many homes as some people here, but I spend ALOT of time on them in hand tool woodworking so I’ve gone through a few of every kind. Here’s most of the current Ark family:

It’s a small handheld soft ark dressed rough, a fine carborundum, what I think is a vintage Washita but dressed too smooth right now, and the loose rough cut black ark dressed to worn 1200W/D plus a ton of use. I could get by with just the black and any one of the other three. The Washita dressed rough and the ark as it is now would be my pick. The Washita right now can make a shaving edge at pretty high speed actually, much faster than people think arks are capable of. It’s sort of a BARELY shaving edge though for me... occasional light tugs. The surface is crazy porous, nearly drinks oil after I clean and dry it:

 

[Basil]

I’d probably start over using your regular system, but then I’m a little compulsive that way. Moreover, I’d shave with it too before taking it to the ark, just to make sure you put a decent edge on it if you’ve never used one before. It’ll give you before and after knowledge.

As for your “how slow” question. You should be able to see the steel polish. There’s no harm in “overusing” a black. You’ll just end up polishing it more and more. It’s a great stone for guys who love the act because, by rights, no real reason to stop save to shave.

I bet if you threw on some tape and had at it you’d be fine too. Congrats on the black!

I’ve never used an ark but I’m curious about this. So the ark doesn’t really cut? It just smooths out the scratches?

 

[Earcutter]

I’ve never used an ark but I’m curious about this. So the ark doesn’t really cut? It just smooths out the scratches?

No I mean any rock will “cut,” but a black will do it so slowly, you can go to town on one and not see any notable difference save the polishing (and polishing is cutting).

In my humblest of opinions, the more a black Ark is used, the better. So if you get one, lapping it using every knife, chisel, or whatever you can get your hands on is beneficial. When you engage in that “lapping,” you’ll see how incredibly little steel is removed as it polishes. And you’d note that you’d be a thousand years old before you honed a butterknife into a steak knife using only a black lol.

You need to get a soft/hard/black set @Basil - you’ll love em.

 

[David]

Dressed properly, and with a bit of pressure a trans or black ark will cut faster than you might think.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I have three or four Arkansas stones.

• A Hard Black 8x3 (mined and finished by Dan's, sold by Sharpening Supplies).
• A Hard Translucent Norton 8x3 (white).
• A Double Convex Ark from Superior Shave (Black Translucent on the finishing side; off white on the bevel setting side).

The first two were finished a bit more by me with SIC up to 600 grit on a marble tile. I did nothing at all to the DCA.

I've used all these stones.

I have yet to get a good edge with the DCA but I'm figuring it out and I believe the issue is I've not tried it on the right razor yet. It's also, in my experience, a unique stone with a learning curve. I think I have a handle on the stone finally. The DCA should be a one stone solution (or two stone if you will), but I'd start with a nice bevel set on a Chosera 1K or coticule, but that's just me. It's not a slow stone for an Ark (I think). In fact, I think it's a fairly fast stone particularly for an Ark. Since I've yet to get satisfactory results I'm kinda reluctant to say I know anything for sure about it.

Someone earlier mentioned using a flat Ark (like the Hard Translucent Norton or a Hard Black) as a one stone solution). I'm sure it can be done. I'm also sure I don't plan to. In my somewhat limited flat Ark experience the Hard Ark stones are best used to finish an edge which is already pretty sharp. Even there, these are slow stones + they are demanding. They don't forgive.

I'd use the flat Hard Arks off the coticule or off the 12K synthetics or something like that.

Slow doesn't do the stones justice but I like the Arks anyway. So far my favorite is the Norton but maybe that's partly because it's pretty. It's also pretty slow (understatement).

I'm really not a seasoned honer so I'm just telling you what my impressions are so far.

Happy shaves,

Jim