So how slow is a black ark?

[Namkcakram]

I've tried Arks with all sorts of oils, various mineral oils, synthetic oil, etc. Also with water but not running water. Currently I'm using Ballistol, sometimes straight (sprayed from the aerosol container onto the stone), sometimes mixed with water (usually 1:4), but also with drops of water added to the straight stuff.

Happy shaves,

Jim

I’d give it a shot under lightly running water trying to make sure the edge is always on the water. My guess would be either there’s too much concentrated pressure where the blade hits the stone, which steady running water should mitigate and give you a sign. Otherwise maybe you need to try a new edge refinement strategy going into the ark because the steel is just that hard. The fact that it got better after more time on the arks could suggest just a harder steel.

I’ve got a few legit chisels from an 86yr old Japanese blacksmith that really just laugh at arks. Haven’t seen a razor anywhere near THAT hard yet, but a few do get up there pretty hard. It took me a long time to get a satisfying edge on my Torrey because it has some prior damage that affects honing and it is just way harder than I thought any American razors were tempered. I got complacent and kept expecting similar results to the other Yankee blades which are soft in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I’d give it a shot under lightly running water trying to make sure the edge is always on the water. My guess would be either there’s too much concentrated pressure where the blade hits the stone, which steady running water should mitigate and give you a sign. Otherwise maybe you need to try a new edge refinement strategy going into the ark because the steel is just that hard. The fact that it got better after more time on the arks could suggest just a harder steel.

I’ve got a few legit chisels from an 86yr old Japanese blacksmith that really just laugh at arks. Haven’t seen a razor anywhere near THAT hard yet, but a few do get up there pretty hard. It took me a long time to get a satisfying edge on my Torrey because it has some prior damage that affects honing and it is just way harder than I thought any American razors were tempered. I got complacent and kept expecting similar results to the other Yankee blades which are soft in the grand scheme of things.

Interesting idea. If I hear you correctly the main thing is more time on the Ark (for the "350" edge). That was my next plan. I don't think I'm likely to over hone the blade.

Maybe running water would be an answer. It's not like it would hurt the stone.

Thanks for your interesting comments and advice.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Namkcakram]

Interesting idea. If I hear you correctly the main thing is more time on the Ark (for the "350" edge). That was my next plan. I don't think I'm likely to over hone the blade.

Maybe running water would be an answer. It's not like it would hurt the stone.

Thanks for your interesting comments and advice.

Happy shaves,

Jim

Yeah basically running water to finish and a quick test shave would tell you if the problem is the blade contacting with too much pressure.

If that’s not the problem... just more time, and I’d really go heavier pressure on the soft ark side for a good while ending with no pressure, then start over heavier pressure on the black side and ending with no pressure.

But I would try running water and as little pressure as possible first, it’d be a nice surprise if you just needed a slight change in fluids to push the edge further.

 

[Twelvefret]

Yeah basically running water to finish and a quick test shave would tell you if the problem is the blade contacting with too much pressure.

If that’s not the problem... just more time, and I’d really go heavier pressure on the soft ark side for a good while ending with no pressure, then start over heavier pressure on the black side and ending with no pressure.

But I would try running water and as little pressure as possible first, it’d be a nice surprise if you just needed a slight change in fluids to push the edge further.

I discovered with my Coticule I was making unintended slurry. Another member said that my practice of honing under dripping or a small stream of water would prevent the slurry and I assume dulling the already prepared edge. Does this also apply to the stone being discussed?

 

[global_dev]

i think its less the auto slurry effect and maybe more about a fluid bed effect, which probably also happens also on the coticule.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Yeah basically running water to finish and a quick test shave would tell you if the problem is the blade contacting with too much pressure.

I understood the rest of what you said, but I don't really understand what you mean by the blade contacting (the stone) with too much pressure? Are you saying too much pressure could be dulling the edge? If not, what's going on there?

I get that you're saying the first thing to do is the light honing on the black side under running water to see if that would be a simple fix to sharpen the edge.

i think its less the auto slurry effect and maybe more about a fluid bed effect, which probably also happens also on the coticule.

What's a fluid bed effect?

I discovered with my Coticule I was making unintended slurry. Another member said that my practice of honing under dripping or a small stream of water would prevent the slurry and I assume dulling the already prepared edge. Does this also apply to the stone being discussed?

When using my coticule, which I usually use with oil and my patented Dilucot Oil Honing method, I usually clean the stone several times during the final stages of honing. I want the swarf gone and I want the slurry gone. I wipe the stone on a towel, maybe apply a bit more oil, wipe the stone again, and then add a bit of oil and continue with my light strokes. Then, after a bit of honing, I might repeat the cleaning and do a few more final finish strokes.

Mostly I just stumbled into this method after reading about how to do the actual Dilucot Method using water. I was trying to sorta kinda duplicate it with oil on the coticule.

I do much the same with the Zulu Grey (which comes with its own slurry stone).

I think the Ark is a different animal, but maybe not. In any case I tend to clean the Ark in the same or a similar way towards the finishing stages.

I'm not saying anything I do is correct, proper, right, or should be duplicated by anyone else. Just reporting on what I do, right or wrong. I've gotten some very good edges off the various stones, but also had some failures.

Interesting stuff.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Twelvefret]

i think its less the auto slurry effect and maybe more about a fluid bed effect, which probably also happens also on the coticule.

Please explain the difference. Thank you.

 

[MO1]

When i use only water on my ark it just kinda runs off and leaves a few spots of water. hard to get suction with that, but using it under running water leaves the surface with water constantly on it, easier to get suction similar with oil. but oil dont run off the surface.
Was actually pretty nice to use it under running water.

 

[Basil]

Lots of interesting tips and info for working with arks in this thread. Just bought a convex ark so well see what happens with it when it arrives.

 

[Twelvefret]

Lots of interesting tips and info for working with arks in this thread. Just bought a convex ark so well see what happens with it when it arrives.

That’s two stones this week, correct?

 

[Basil]

That’s two stones this week, correct?

No. I only bought a convex black ark, just the one.

 

[Twelvefret]

No. I only bought a convex black ark, just the one.

Okay, didn’t realize the one you bought was convex.

 

[Basil]

Okay, didn’t realize the one you bought was convex.

Yeah figured I’d have the convex side and I could just try and flatten the other side myself. Best of both worlds.

 

[global_dev]

so the water and oils different viscosities on cutting matrix allow the surfaces to be less or more exposed to each other. I think the fluid bed or running water attempts to similarly lessen the amount of direct contact

 

[Namkcakram]

Basically I’m wondering if a thinner fluid like ballistol on the convex surface is failing to keep a consistent viscous fluid layer under the edge where it contacts the stone.

You can dry hone on an ark, and I’d recommend you try it on a kitchen knife and then go slice something like a soft tomato or some tough meat. It is a KILLER slicing edge, but dry honing or what may be effectively dry honing based on lack of viscosity where it counts generally will not give you a smooth edge you want to shave.

Seems to me the easiest way to be sure you have an even viscous film covering a convex spherical surface is to drizzle water right into the middle of it while you hone.

I can hone two of my most used chisels a 15mm and a 42mm and see big differences in honing speed vs finish quality achieved if I try to use the same pressure and arks. That’s due to the pressure being distributed on a much larger bevel surface area. The 42mm takes literally all day on arks but finishes with a killer edge. The 15mm can be a touch up hone but if I use the same amount of force on the bevel as I use for the 42mm, the 15mm will only be a good enough edge for mallet chopping work.

Now think about your DCA, you’ve probably reduced the effective surface contact area by a factor of 10 or more plus you’ve opened up huge relieved areas on either side of the contact patch for a thin honing fluid to escape the pressure under the bevel.

If I’m right, you’ll see some improvement from running water and as light of pressure as you can manage because it should keep a consistent fluid layer all over the stones surface. If I’m off I’ll comment with theory #2

 

[Dzaw]

Not owning a convex stone, I still think your reasoning seems sound, fwiw.

 

[Twelvefret]

I noticed a shaving difference when I started using dripping or a small steam of water both in comfort and sharpness. This has been my practice since the new year and since watching a video of a person using a small Escher stone.

 

[Basil]

I’ve read about people using a progression of fluids on the black ark. Anyone try it? Dry to water to soapy water to oil. Interesting stuff.

 

[Twelvefret]

I’ve read about people using a progression of fluids on the black ark. Anyone try it? Dry to water to soapy water to oil. Interesting stuff.

For shaving or tools?

 

[kelbro]

You guys are making my head hurt!

All of this bouncing around trying all of these different things seems like overkill to me. There are 1001 ways to skin this cat but I've always had the best luck by focusing on mastering a known technique before I move on to the next shiny object.