Escher Questions

[duke762]

Just got my first Escher. It's 8 inches and green in color. I lapped the dish out of it and finished flattening on my 600 Atoma. I couldn't believe how much the draw on the stone mimicked the feel of my 12k but with a higher draw when honing. I found it a bit difficult to hang onto the razor and control pressure at the same time. Is this normal for an Escher? I'll need to adjust my honing style for this stone for better control.

Since I don't really have a rubbing stone, I made slurry with a piece of trans Ark. Is this okay or should I score a rubbing stone? I imagine a rubbing stone should be of a similar type or at least harder than the Escher so there is no contamination of the slurry from the rubbing stone. I thought the Ark worked surprisingly well but this is unfamiliar territory for me.

I honed up an extra hollow ground Wade and Butcher on it and moved to a Surgical Black Norton. The Escher made my apex look better and there was no feel of the Ark doing anything afterwards. Test shave tonight!

Looks promising........Sure don't like the feel while honing. With more experience it may become more familiar to me.

 

[David]

. I found it a bit difficult to hang onto the razor and control pressure at the same time. Is this normal for an Escher?

Can’t say that I’ve ever experienced this with an Escher. The soft stones do push back at you a bit with sort of velvety feedback, but not in a bad way. You hone a lot on arks don’t you? Maybe it will just take some getting used to honing on the Escher.

 

[Wid]

I’ve never experienced a sticky feeling either. If you’re used to Arkansas stones then maybe be mindful of the pressure on the Escher.

Like David, the sense I get is a velvety feeling.

 

[Legion]

Should be safe enough to raise slurry with a hard Ark. They are so hard in comparison to a Thuri that virtually none of the slurry will be from the Ark. Probably quicker to use your Atoma, though.

 

[Herrenberg]

I need to return to my Thuris. My memory of using them does not match your experience. Any chance you should be using more water than you are?

 

[duke762]

Any chance you should be using more water than you are?

Yes, that is most likely. It felt better every time I sprayed it. More flooded than just wet felt better and may be the ticket! Thank You!

 

[JPO]

I don't have an Escher stone. However, I have some slates that might have some of the same properties.
Slurry creates lubrication. If the slurry density is too thin it will not give the same lubrication as a denser slurry.
I don't use allot of water on these stones. I find it easier to just use a little water and slurry. Then I just make sure it doesn't get pasty.
The slurry don't break down. It just makes the stone more active, and creates some lubrication.
If you are using it as a pure finisher, the stone might release enough particles on its own if you don't flood it with water.
My Black Shadow feels terrible if I use too much water. It just needs to be wet and to have some slurry to get the stone started.
If you get the same amount of resistance as a superstone, then I think you are using too much pressure. A softer stone will kill your edge with just one heavy handed stroke.

 

[Gamma]

Assuming it's a real labeled Escher and not another fleabay "Escher?" stone.....

A rubber stone used on an Escher seems to be mostly about clearing off the surface, getting rid of swarf, etc. The 'slurry' doesn't improve edge condition. If you use too much 'slime' or make it too thick that might set things back.

If I use a rubbing stone I am inclined to rinse the main stone off after rubbing it down. I might add a hint of slurry to the water to create some cushion but just a trace.

A soft Thuri, Escher, whatever, with a lot of slurry on it, and maybe glazed because it was slurried with a slab of Ark..possibly very wet/soaked from being worked on a for a while, I can see that feeling different than normal.

Honestly, for razor honing, the rubber stone is superfluous. If the Escher was lapped flat and cleared of all gunk, and your edge was prepared correctly, you should only be there for a very short time and there shouldn't be any swarf embedding into the Escher. These are 'soft touch' stones, I usually use 'minor' pressure to no pressure.
If the Escher ever did get loaded, some/a few passes on 600x w/d paper should clean it off.

There is nothing wrong with using a rubber stone, I just don't see them being necessary. I honestly think their arrival on the scene was more about marketing, pricing, and packaging than anything else.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I don't slurry eschers/thuris.

I don't see any reason to, but if you prefer the feel with slurry; go ahead... but with a proper slurry stone, not a mismatched stone. Worst case it's gonna wear the stone a little faster. I think the rubber/raise a slime directions were more directed at making the narrow stones feel a little more grabby/make the razor ride a little bit better; less chance of rocking the razor. in other words... not a big deal if you're not shaking a lot.

The way you're describing it makes me think you're using a LOT of pressure. While the whole "must hover the razor with no pressure" nonsense that some people start at out isn't right; neither is really digging a razor into the stone; especially with Thuri's which are plenty fast for their grit and very easy to use. Use enough pressure you can easily keep the razor flat and under control and that's it. This isn't a stone you should be thinking about pressure with.

Eschers do have a good bit of draw, but "Hang on to the razor" and "control pressure" are two phrases that should never cross your mind using one. Don't approach these like an Ark. Total opposite stones. Eschers are really mindless... use them like your 12k.


Since you said Escher, I assume it's labeled... but if not; throw up a pic just so we can confirm it is in fact a Thuri for ya. If it is labeled, throw up a pic so we can oogle it.

 

[Gamma]

I don't recall thinner stones having a rubber or the mention of slime on the label. Maybe some came that way. Some of the wider 'barber' types having that wording on the label. There was a mention of 'lather' allowing faster sharpening on some Escher labels.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Pretty sure the boxed celebrated talked about raising a honing slime despite no slurry included... unless my brain is mush in my old age (completely plausible).

edit found it, but yeah, there's a half dozen different labels for these 5" boxed hones, this is just one of em :

 

[Gamma]

I never read the labels with any intent to be honest...I had to go read mine today actually. It's barber delight sized and it mentions the rubber/lather.
I just remember the bit about raising a slime and/or lather with the rubber stone being in/on the barber stone labels
I think the Droescher stone has a mention of it too.
Many variations of the labels of all the sizes over the years.

 

[duke762]

Yep I've got a real Escher but it's a user with about 10% of it's label that allows ID. Green and 8 inches. It looks awful grey but the slurry while lapping is very green. I wanted one in a size I'm used to. I sealed everything to preserve it's legitimacy.

Test shave last night was stellar. Gamma was right to include this in his Ark progression. I honed up another razor last night with more water and everything went fine. My bench is out of level causing most of the water to run off the sides....gotta work on that. Best looking apex I've ever generated. I don't expect my Arks will make this edge any sharper but I need skin friendly so off to the Arks we go.......Man this is gonna' be great!

I never dreamed an Escher could do this, to improve a 12k edge and no fins, sparkles or lap count restrictions. This is going to be a very busy hone.....

 

[JPO]

Pretty sure the boxed celebrated talked about raising a honing slime despite no slurry included... unless my brain is mush in my old age (completely plausible).

edit found it, but yeah, there's a half dozen different labels for these 5" boxed hones, this is just one of em : View attachment 1755092

To me it just seems to indicate that by honing the stone will release particles (slime) when you use it.

The stones I have will release enough particles to create some cushion and lubrication. If I use too much water on the stone, or if the surface is glazed it will not behave the same way.
The best use I have found for a nagura when used with these stones is to condition the surface to make it more active.
The slurry don't seem to have a positive effect on the edge. Maybe my stones are not that good.
I usually condition the surface, and wash away 90% of the slurry.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“My bench is out of level causing most of the water to run off the sides....gotta work on that.”

Pick up a plastic food tray from the dollar store, and with a couple of ¼ inch thick 2x11 inch strips of Yoga Matt or 6mm craft foam you can adjust their position and get the stone face perfectly flat in both X &Y orientation.

An inexpensive bulls-eye level helps, or just watch the slurry and adjust.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Exactly, they talk about raising a slime in use... even without a slurry stone. I guess what we would call in coticule terms "Autoslurry".

 

[SliceOfLife]

I never read the labels with any intent to be honest...I had to go read mine today actually. It's barber delight sized and it mentions the rubber/lather.
I just remember the bit about raising a slime and/or lather with the rubber stone being in/on the barber stone labels
I think the Droescher stone has a mention of it too.
Many variations of the labels of all the sizes over the years.

Honestly, it almost makes a strange divide in collectors...

Starting out, you want labels to be sure what you've got.
Later, you want them because they are cool.

 

[Gamma]

The main reason I care about an Escher label is for positive ID when purchasing. I dont buy into the “I can tell by looking at it” claims. I do like the historical aspect of the labels though.

 

[duke762]

I just ran the stone over a 600 Atoma and rinsed it. The stone felt velvety and wonderful and generated a wisp of auto slurry. As the stone settled in, and after spraying it a couple times, it seemed to need sprayed more often. While trying to do rolling X's, the toe wants to ...let's say shudder or stall, for lack of a better word. It feels like it doesn't have enough water on it, or I screwed up and put too much pressure. This is despite my efforts to use a light touch. Edges come out incredible, but I'm new to slates and this feeling is a little odd to me. I did use a Silk stone for a while. It had a real peculiar draw to it and it took me a long time to figure it out to the point that it became useful to me.

It makes me wonder if lapping it to 400 grit would change anything. What's an appropriate grit range to lap these stone to and how often. Do I lap as often as...let's say, my Shapton's?

 

[JPO]

I just ran the stone over a 600 Atoma and rinsed it. The stone felt velvety and wonderful and generated a wisp of auto slurry. As the stone settled in, and after spraying it a couple times, it seemed to need sprayed more often. While trying to do rolling X's, the toe wants to ...let's say shudder or stall, for lack of a better word. It feels like it doesn't have enough water on it, or I screwed up and put too much pressure. This is despite my efforts to use a light touch. Edges come out incredible, but I'm new to slates and this feeling is a little odd to me. I did use a Silk stone for a while. It had a real peculiar draw to it and it took me a long time to figure it out to the point that it became useful to me.

It makes me wonder if lapping it to 400 grit would change anything. What's an appropriate grit range to lap these stone to and how often. Do I lap as often as...let's say, my Shapton's?

It is probably not necessary, but i lap my slates before each use. I then dress the surface with a nagura. Even if i plan to use the stone with slurry, i wash it off and generate a fresh slurry with the nagura.
I am also careful of how i generate slurry. My stones do scratch easily, so to avoid large particles into the slurry i avoid using too much pressure on the nagura.