It sounds really cool that’s for sure.
So how slow is a black ark?
- Thread starter Dzaw
- Start date
Depends on the surface of the ark and how it is lapped/burnished.
^^ This. I’d love to find a clearly marked no1 or Lilly White Washita, because my old janky Washita(probably) is fast and a one stone hone all the way to upper-midrange/lower finisher. It’s the fastest ark I’ve seen by a good bit.
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- #24
So I’m taking this E&B back to films and doing a full reset on the bevel.
Just wondering at what point should I stop the fil progression and move over to the Arkansas stone? I was thinking somewhere in the 3 micron range?
Just wondering at what point should I stop the fil progression and move over to the Arkansas stone? I was thinking somewhere in the 3 micron range?
Now that’s one of those questions where different people will discover their own best practices for their beard. I guess since you have one razor in particular here, I’d go with what’s probably slight overkill and say take it to 1mu on light to zero pressure before the Ark. If you either don’t have 1mu or don’t feel you get good results on 1mu, I’d say 3mu is worth experimenting with and I’d maybe try 3mu plus some very light pressure linen stropping mixed in iteratively with 3mu or between the 3mu and ark.
Either way the best point to jump from synthetic abrasives to natural finishers is an interesting debate among experienced honers, and it’s not so much a debate as just “hey this has worked for me... except for really narrow included angle bevels” or whatever the experience they had may be. Not to scare you, it’s not rocket surgery and probably any good <3mu edge will get you to a very good finish quickly. Sandpaper and arks probably play nicely together because synthetics up to 8k/12k and arks play nicely together.
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- #26
Sweet, thanks!
That’s what made sense to me since 3 micron is equivalent to 8000 grit according to the charts I’ve seen.
I've gone straight to a black ark from a 9 micron hone as a proof of method before. It's doable, not even all that time consuming, but suggests a use of pressure many would be uncomfortable with. 3 micron is a pretty standard point to switch to a decent finisher, but arkansas are easy going, and depending on your technique it could be easier for you to go another step up even (what'd that be... 1 micron?). I went from 10-13k JIS (.7-1.3 micron) to ark for awhile. I usually don't bother anymore, but it did make things a little easier than coming off an 8k Mesh.
Yeah ok so the consensus here is seems pretty good that this should work out well for you, just really be sure the bevel is set and passes a pretty good inspection before moving on. You’ll really never catch back up later if the bevel isn’t already seeming sharp off the first film. I’d also say make sure you put in a decent amount of time on the 3mu with the best technique you can muster. That’s about a 5k JIS among the top shelf synthetic stone brands, and it’s really the last stop where you have the cutting ability to blast through the bevel setting scratches without spending all day on this. The jump to 1mu and to black ark will go a lot smoother if you put in the time on bevel set and up to 3mu.
Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
I agree with the quote material below.
I'd say stop the progression when the razor seems sharp (as sharp as the progression will get it or fairly close to that). The Ark is your finishing stone; it is also a very slow stone. As such it will modify your edge. It might make it even sharper. It might make it slightly less sharp (but still very sharp) and also a good bit more comfortable. You're seeking a blend of sharpness and comfort which suits and works for you.
If I'm using a synthetic progression I'll take it to the 12K stone before finishing it on an Ark. I don't think there are any really chiseled in stone rules here but realize what kind of stone the Ark is and what you're trying to end up with.
That seems to have just a slight skew from the top shelf brands’ stone labeling, and no manufacturers seem to completely agree. Norton says 3mu is 8k, Suehiro and Naniwa say 3mu is 5k. Shapton gets slightly off from other Manufacturers, but closer to them than to Norton.
At the end of the day it’s best for us all just to talk in particle sizes and particle shape and composition if we are able to find and share the info. Personally I usually finish to Suehiro “Rika” before jumping to naturals. That’s a “5k” stone, but the full story is ~3mu white alundum abrasive that seems able to finish beyond average “5k” quality with good technique, softer binder and muddy feedback if you go too hard on pressure. It’s a great cutlery and tool stone, not the feedback or density you really want for razors but it works for me and cuts very fast.
I’ve looked at several charts and all show 3mu as 8000 grit. Here is another international source for GEM abrasives.
Gem Cutting Abrasives In Grit, Mesh, and Microns
I don’t make this stuff up. Just relating
3micron is 4K jis. 8k norton and mesh.
I know you’re not making it up and you’re citing sources, I’m just telling you there is no standard in the real world no matter what a handful of Companies may try to push. Norton and DMT are the only stone manufacturers I know of who think 3mu is 8k.
This is why it’s so comical when people want to put a “k” rating scale on natural stones... not only is there too much variance in any natural rock formation, there actually is no standardized scale even among man made stones! Everyone’s 8k stones don’t leave the same caliber finish by a long shot! I’ve personally handled two different brand stones one labeled 6k, the other labeled 8k and I have zero doubt they are the exact same stone manufactured by Imanishi then rebranded and marketed by two distributors. The “k scale” belongs to marketers not scientists.
Did I mislabel Naniwa? Maybe it’s Shapton that also thinks 3mu is 5k... either way each brand has their own slightly offset ratings all the way up. I wouldn’t doubt at all that it’s supposed to “officially” be 4K JIS.
Shapton has their own rating system that's a little bit off of JIS. If I recall it rates things slightly higher than JIS... so an 8k shapton is like 6500 or 7000 JIS... it's really complicated. Naniwa I believe is JIS rated... at least till 6k or 8k... afterwards I think the "official" JIS ratings end, and it becomes up to manufacturers to calculate what a stone SHOULD be rated in JIS.
Norton refers to their rating system as "US" if I recall correctly (Not to be confused with US sandpaper ratings systems which are VERY different)... I don't know of anyone else using it, which is why it's often called the "Norton" scale. DMT uses Mesh... and are frankly one of the best about it... basically it means their particles go through a literal mesh with openings of a certain size and then through a smaller one... and the ones that go through the first and not the second are used on a particular plate (say their EE / 8000)... which would be ~3micron particles.
Norton refers to their rating system as "US" if I recall correctly (Not to be confused with US sandpaper ratings systems which are VERY different)... I don't know of anyone else using it, which is why it's often called the "Norton" scale. DMT uses Mesh... and are frankly one of the best about it... basically it means their particles go through a literal mesh with openings of a certain size and then through a smaller one... and the ones that go through the first and not the second are used on a particular plate (say their EE / 8000)... which would be ~3micron particles.
Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
This is gospel!
Worse, there's nothing we can do about it. The wonder is how well we manage to do anyway.
Happy shaves,
Jim
- A Dan's Hard Black Arkansas is a 12K.
- A Norton Hard Translucent is a 16K.
- A Hark Black Translucent (like my Double Convex Ark from Superior Shave) is a 15K.
Absolutely. It's 100% made up and might be totally unreliable exactly like all the other rating systems, or, maybe, it could be right. Your guess is as good as anyone's.
Worse, there's nothing we can do about it. The wonder is how well we manage to do anyway.
Happy shaves,
Jim
Ha! Too true... poor surgical black gets stuck in the Nani 12 depth area of the pool.
You and I are probably two of a small group here who stick with DMT, but I’ve never had an issue with them. Once I had a 1200 plate coating start peeling at 3 months use and the company mailed me a replacement and basically one of every other item they make @1200 as an apology. I find what the EEF DMT lacks in stria refinement it makes up for in raw speed and perfectly consistent bevel shaping. I choose it all the time over an Imanishi made JIS 8k.
Coating started peeling? Hell, I've used a half dozen DMT's HEAVILY for a decade and didn't even realize the surface COULD peel. Must have been a really defective one.
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