I’m going to bed. I hope you boys figure it out.
Questioning Everything | One Superior Edge | One Superior Shave
- Thread starter Chan Eil Whiskers
- Start date
Good night John BoyI’m going to bed. I hope you boys figure it out.
I’m with you here bro... I’ve solved more than my share of Riemann sum approximation models, and I know one when I see it. Mapping out a bevel with any accuracy isn’t really possible. Taking one slice at an individual point can give you one sample of a cross section, which still tells you literally nothing in the grand scheme of data points you’d need to compare and predict different edges’ performance.
As far as I can tell every few years someone goes on a wild crusade to “brings science” into honing as if the hobby isn’t already full of real life engineers. Just because you have access to an absurd grade of microscope doesn’t confer any great deeper meaning to your imagery, it just means you have more detail of a much smaller spot.
That is only partially true. The edge of a razor is a wedge, just like many other cutting implements, including an axe. The apex of the edge penetrates the outer sheath of the hair follicle. Then the wedge forces the cells apart until the stress applied by the wedge causes the strain within the follicle to exceed the tensile strength of the hair, resulting in failure of the structure; that is, the hair is cut. Thus, not only does the apex of the edge come in to play, but also the bevel. The apex begins the cut, but the bevel completes it.
This process occurs numerous times along the length of the edge. Thus, the uniformity of the edge from one end to the other will determine the efficiency and comfort level of the razor.
Let's put all this use of academic jargon aside for a moment and consider the reason the thread was posted. Jim is questioning his results aka his shaves. He obtained a razor that was honed with several mediums and Jim said he was pleased with the shave he obtained. Aren't we here discussing how some honing mediums produce different qualities of sharp? I think that's Steve's point and it is true, sharp is easy to establish. We know how sharp from how the edge performs. If it performs for the intended task, we can say it's sharp. That's what sharp mean. It cuts
Slice of Life has his own thread where he's testing out various mediums and then shaving. I'd suspect that he is producing sharp edges, but his shaves/results are not very good, it seems from a casual reading.
What I think Jim wants to know is how to make his own edges so that the shaves/results are similar to the vendor's edges. He has decided to use stones. Can Jim provide a edge that is as good as his razor vendor using stones? This should be the discussion.
Having received Japanese natural stone edges and Shapton edges from vendors who are experienced and ought to know, I've needed to re-hone to meet the challenges of my needs. So, I have experienced razors from stones and razors from diamond. I've done my own experimentations going back to a stone edge and then forward to 200K grit diamond. There is a difference in sharp and it can be felt and seen in use.
Slice of Life has his own thread where he's testing out various mediums and then shaving. I'd suspect that he is producing sharp edges, but his shaves/results are not very good, it seems from a casual reading.
What I think Jim wants to know is how to make his own edges so that the shaves/results are similar to the vendor's edges. He has decided to use stones. Can Jim provide a edge that is as good as his razor vendor using stones? This should be the discussion.
Having received Japanese natural stone edges and Shapton edges from vendors who are experienced and ought to know, I've needed to re-hone to meet the challenges of my needs. So, I have experienced razors from stones and razors from diamond. I've done my own experimentations going back to a stone edge and then forward to 200K grit diamond. There is a difference in sharp and it can be felt and seen in use.
- Thread starter
- #86
Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
Yesterday I watched a few of Dr. Matt's videos. He seems like a really good guy and he makes good videos. I was mostly interested in his view of USB scopes and noticed they've evolved. The scope he's using now cost over a thousand dollars with its stand. I was also interested in his use of and views of nano cloth sprayed with CBN. His video on that subject was very very very much in favor of using the stuff, but the video was old. More recent honing videos have involved the use of stones. One fairly recent video is finishing with the Imperia La Roccia. Another, the coticule. More recent video are also focused on how fast he can get the job done. Anyway, all that's good for him.
But does it tell me anything? Frankly I'm not sure. Does he still use the nano cloth and CBN? I don't know. Is his old scope (which functions like my modified Plugable by the way) still in use? I don't know.
I enjoy everyone's comments and input to the degree it makes sense to me or forces me to think about things I need to think about, but mostly I have to actually figure things out via my own honing and thought process and practice. Trial and error, right?
But, yes, can I get an edge
Happy shaves,
Jim
Most recent videos of his that interested me were his A&E soap review and one where he has another YouTuber contact him saying he literally can’t get professionally honed razors through his steel whiskers yet he can use a shavette. The A&E video he uses a Japanese razor with a Coticule edge “touched up” on an ark. That’s a fantastic edge if you’ve never tried one out, though I’d go for your Norton for the touch up. The video with the steel whisker guy he sends 3 blades to attempt a shave: a ZY with nanocloth edge (doesn’t work-metallurgy sucks as much as guys on here will tell you otherwise), a TI with nanocloth (works), and a Brian Brown wedge with JNAT (works the best- mostly due to grind and metallurgy not so much stone edge).
Dr Matt’s progression over time from synths to pastes back to synths with natural finishers is pretty normal for people in this hobby with insatiable curiosity. The pastes almost grow in their appeal when you’ve been doing this a year or two because you reach a point where your personal stone edges aren’t consistent and pastes make everything equally good every time as long as there’s no contaminant on your strop and the blade is decent. It’s hard to say no to those kind of results, and nobody’s telling you to.
If you read the writings of some of the real metallurgy and razor honing experts you’ll find plenty of references to the benefits of using abrasive paste, they’re just never using it to completely finish the edge the way we’re talking about on here. Even Iwasakis informational honing pamphlet mentions using a “Raxa hone” of CrOx loaded linen to “remove the false edge” (microscopic foil burr) after finish honing. The difference is his prescription is 3-6 passes with no pressure, and then he actually says for a maxed out keen edge he has another trick he recommends on the finishing stone afterwards.
Anyone who knows what they’re talking about won’t Come out blatantly against pastes, people are just saying you already have some great finishing stones and some good experience so if you’re committed to learning the traditional edge leading stone honing just stick with it and stay very deliberate in recording your processes and results like you already are. You’re doing everything right already, and now you’re getting into some very good steel in those razors.
Someone will probably say you can get the same edges as diamond paste using stones. Others might suggest you don’t need a 200 grit if your technique is refined. My take is that only you can decide what’s best to shave your beard.
The real issue is that we are shaving today, not when we’ve figured it out. Plus, Jim has no way of knowing if he will somehow shave better on stones if he persists with them for 5 years.
I believe he will. Honing is an evolutionary process. After using the Method for more than a year, my edges have improved greatly even though I still follow the process precisely. It just happens.
I’m sure that will encourage , Jim, to know
- Thread starter
- #92
Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
Well I didn't say that your way is a method. I refer to these two methods (I call it a method if it is very reproducible) to contrast them with the variability of stones. I agree that stones and film are similar in use, but I would call film more methodical (different stones behave differently, film is more "reliable"). It is interesting that you consider mid range stones to ad something to the edge, I never tried it.
Maybe this has something to do with what sliceoflife is trying to say and the problem he seems to have with scienceof sharp?
I have no trouble beleiving your diamond edge works better than a coticule. Right now I am enjoying the fact that I can shave quite allright of a 17 euro piece of BBW (I also have to admit that I am addicted to the feeling of a razor stroking this stone
). But that won't stop me from exploring both 'methods' (science of sharp and the method) out of sheer curiosity. Who knows I will like it so much that I never want a stone edge again.Well I didn't say that your way is a method. I refer to these two methods (I call it a method if it is very reproducible) to contrast them with the variability of stones. I agree that stones and film are similar in use, but I would call film more methodical (different stones behave differently, film is more "reliable"). It is interesting that you consider mid range stones to ad something to the edge, I never tried it.
Maybe this has something to do with what sliceoflife is trying to say and the problem he seems to have with scienceof sharp?
I have no trouble beleiving your diamond edge works better than a coticule. Right now I am enjoying the fact that I can shave quite allright of a 17 euro piece of BBW (I also have to admit that I am addicted to the feeling of a razor stroking this stone
I do thoroughly enjoy hand holding a stone under dripping water. Just wished they produced as good of an edge as films and diamond. Like I said, I put my collection on a Thuringian edge and shaved for several months with that edge. Some razors responded better than others, but I could tell on the very best razors that they just didn't perform as before. I intend to stay with the stones for a bevel set.
Films may be more reliable/predictable/practical because of the closeness in grit from sheet to sheet, something it would take several stones to duplicate.
I doubt that's the real reason. I think films tend to use more stages because films wear out (eventually), and more stages increases the life of the film. In contrast, you don't lose any performance that I've noticed between going from a ten stage synthetic process or a full Jnat Nagura process to jumping from a beveler straight to a finisher, provided you do enough work on the finisher and the finisher is somewhat aggressive. Throw one intermediate stone in there, and the finisher doesn't even need to be aggressive.
Stones, especially natural stones are all about the finish level... and there's plenty of difference in the finish between a mediocre finisher and a great one. Plenty of guys have tried every film or paste finish under the sun and found they simply can't compare to a high end natural finisher, but they're certainly going to beat plenty of mediocre ones. If I had the choice between a CNAT or paste finish, I'd take the paste finish every time. But plenty of guys shaved for years off CNAT's. It's not like they aren't capable of finishing. It's just that they aren't as good as plenty of other stones; so you can't really use them to judge all stone finishes the way you can use .1 micron film to judge all .1 micron film finishes.
Stones, especially natural stones are all about the finish level... and there's plenty of difference in the finish between a mediocre finisher and a great one. Plenty of guys have tried every film or paste finish under the sun and found they simply can't compare to a high end natural finisher, but they're certainly going to beat plenty of mediocre ones. If I had the choice between a CNAT or paste finish, I'd take the paste finish every time. But plenty of guys shaved for years off CNAT's. It's not like they aren't capable of finishing. It's just that they aren't as good as plenty of other stones; so you can't really use them to judge all stone finishes the way you can use .1 micron film to judge all .1 micron film finishes.
I suspect there is some reason a new honer can produce a shave ready blade the first time and every time with films while others seem to struggle with stones.
Anyone who has tried diamond and balsa would be able to explain how well the blade performs.
Anyone who has tried diamond and balsa would be able to explain how well the blade performs.
I’m clearly on this team, one of the best and most consistent edges I’ve found is the full Arksperience of coarser Washita->finer Washita->hard surgical black. I’ve got .3u film on hand and I’ve used plenty of paste previously and currently use it on curved edge woodworking tools. I wouldn’t pick anything else over that edge for the majority of blades I’ve owned, and ones that I would pick another finish for I still almost always settle on a different natural stone progression after trying a whole slew of edges.
Oh, I know plenty of guys who produced a shave ready edge the first time with stones too. The quality of that edge is only ever known to them. I doubt films are any simpler than synthetic stones, but I'd agree they are both simpler than most natural progressions, certainly.
What is simpler than anything else is pasted stropping, for reasons that have been explained to death elsewhere. And that's why for more than a decade the recommendation for anyone not getting decent results with honing (whether on synths, nats, or films) was to try stropping with chromox.
Nak, and that's the thing. You understand arkansas and are comfortable with them. A guy who learns a synthetic progression will be comfortable with that. A guy who learns with a bunch of Nagura and a Jnat will be comfortable with that. A guy who learns Dilucot will be comfortable with that. There is learning that goes along with any honing, and what you're used to will be the easiest. The end result is that you either are happy with what you learned and that's all you need, or curiosity drives you to learn other techniques... and once you're skilled in enough, you make a decision about which finish feels best to you.
What is simpler than anything else is pasted stropping, for reasons that have been explained to death elsewhere. And that's why for more than a decade the recommendation for anyone not getting decent results with honing (whether on synths, nats, or films) was to try stropping with chromox.
Nak, and that's the thing. You understand arkansas and are comfortable with them. A guy who learns a synthetic progression will be comfortable with that. A guy who learns with a bunch of Nagura and a Jnat will be comfortable with that. A guy who learns Dilucot will be comfortable with that. There is learning that goes along with any honing, and what you're used to will be the easiest. The end result is that you either are happy with what you learned and that's all you need, or curiosity drives you to learn other techniques... and once you're skilled in enough, you make a decision about which finish feels best to you.
Last edited:
Ive yet to read a new member being successful the first time with stones . They will get a 1k, then a 3-5k, and then try several finish stones in the 12k range.
That said, what most folks want is something similar to a their DE or SE. 12k ain’t going to cut coarse hair efficiently with no irritation, and especially if you shave your whole face where some spots give an Artist Club blade a challenge.
That said, what most folks want is something similar to a their DE or SE. 12k ain’t going to cut coarse hair efficiently with no irritation, and especially if you shave your whole face where some spots give an Artist Club blade a challenge.
Depends on who's honing the razor.
Starting off SR shaving 7 years ago, I received irritation-free shaves from blades honed on either my Norton 4/8k or the Naniwa Super Stone 12k. This is doing a typical 2-pass have, WTG and a mix of XTG/ATG, with some touch-ups. Of course, the shave wasn't entirely flawless since I tended to not steepen the blade angle on my lower neck which usually caused some minor redness -- no fault of the blade or any sharpness issue.
However, the crucial difference isn't the hones but the training one gets on how to use them properly. Hooking up with a honing mentor ensured that I was learning to hone properly within a few weeks. Without learning the basics correctly, I can see someone struggling for ages trying to get their edges just right.
