I watched a video in which a Suehiro G20K was used to go all the way from bevel set to final finishing. Thus, stones finer than 1K can be used to set bevels, but it will take longer to do so. The mistake some people make is setting the bevel on a 1K and then immediately jumping to a higher grit stone without spending enough time on that stone to remove the 1K scratches. If you jump from 1K to 6K, the 6K particles are only 1/216th of the volume of the 1K particles, so it will take a long time to clean up the 1K scratches. Yes, it can be done, but you have to be patient. I do not have that much patience, so I like using a full progression of grits to minimize the time on each stone to remove the scratches/stria from the previous stone.
Questioning Everything | One Superior Edge | One Superior Shave
- Thread starter Chan Eil Whiskers
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I watched a video in which a Suehiro G20K was used to go all the way from bevel set to final finishing. Thus, stones finer than 1K can be used to set bevels, but it will take longer to do so. The mistake some people make is setting the bevel on a 1K and then immediately jumping to a higher grit stone without spending enough time on that stone to remove the 1K scratches. If you jump from 1K to 6K, the 6K particles are only 1/216th of the volume of the 1K particles, so it will take a long time to clean up the 1K scratches. Yes, it can be done, but you have to be patient. I do not have that much patience, so I like using a full progression of grits to minimize the time on each stone to remove the scratches/stria from the previous stone.
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- #22
Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
Mine is a Japanese razor. I assume that the steel is Japanese or Swedish, but I really don't know anything other than what the vendor reported and a member mentioned about his razor of the same brand.
It's the first Japanese razor I've shaved with. I have some others either in hand or in transit.
I don't know that vendor.
There are many options for fixing a wonky edge or ensuring a burr method level edge. I use the Chosera 1K because it's what I have. I may switch to the Washita when mine's cleaned up and ready for service.
Turning to the blade I used today...
My razor today was this Boker.
Like the vast majority of my more recent shave reports, today's report was of a good shave with a good edge. Yesterday's shave and yesterday's edge are not typical for me and have not been for most of my honing career.
However, I do not think today's edge was quite as great as the Japanese edge I used on Saturday (and discussed in the OP, etc.). That's not to say today's edge was very far off that high mark. Perhaps I could return today's Boker to the DCA for more laps and get it to a higher level? Another option would be to use diamond and CBN (neither of which I have).
Using pastes, diamond, and/or CBN seems to be a pretty common solution. I uses pasted strops sometimes and find they usually improve the edges I use them on. I don't have diamond or CBN but am considering them. I know some gentlemen say using pastes and such is a form of cheating; there's a thread discussing that topic.
Do hone and stone only (purists) members regard diamond and CBN pasted strops and pasted balsa as cheating? I really don't know.
I've also decided to get a USB microscope (so called) of the sort that magnifies the picture of the edge and allows you to view it on the computer screen. That might help; we'll see. In this thread I got the idea of which one to buy, but I did a lot of homework before making my decision. It should arrive in the next few days.
Happy shaves,
Jim
Do those purists shave their entire face. Do they have coarse hair? If using pastes is cheating then having a mustache is cheating ....lol!!
I certainly agree that it's wise to stick with one stone until you master it. Trying to learn cotis and jnats at the same time would be frustrating.
But I think the exception is diamond balsa. Because there's not so much learning of technique there. If you set up the balsa the right way, and you do a balsa progression toward the final .1u, then the maintenance after that is just ordinary stropping.
You just keep your .1u balsa beside your leather strop and after every shave, strop 50 on the balsa and strop 40 on the leather and that's all.
But I think the exception is diamond balsa. Because there's not so much learning of technique there. If you set up the balsa the right way, and you do a balsa progression toward the final .1u, then the maintenance after that is just ordinary stropping.
You just keep your .1u balsa beside your leather strop and after every shave, strop 50 on the balsa and strop 40 on the leather and that's all.
No the guy I bought from uses the same long progression as mentioned by the OP. I am familiar with Aprilthe7th's listings but I have never purchased from him. Interested to know, though, how his "shave ready" edges are since he has listings for MANY MANY razors
So CBN leaves a different fingerprint and feel than diamond does, and hanging strops leave a different fingerprint than the balsa from the slash method- there’s some of your difference from past experiences for sure.
Here’s my opinion which is going to be unpopular here, but is widely accepted as common sense on woodworking forums... There is a DRAMATIC difference between a blade that was manufactured by the best company, and a blade that was actually forged by a highly skilled blacksmith.
We all have this NEED to believe that modern science and mass produced cold-rolled tool steels are superior to old small batch steels, but they just aren’t. We have this NEED to believe that the precision alloying of a modern steel will have a bigger impact on edge keenness or durability than the handling of that steel in the forging process, but it just doesn’t. I have hundreds of different woodworking tools made all manner of ways, and my modern powder metal super steel chisels can’t hold a candle to my hideous plain high carbon steel chisels that were hand hammered to shape in a 3 heat forging process and then aggressively cold water quenched by an unknown 86yr old Japanese blacksmith.
The Japanese blacksmithing tradition continued unbroken master to apprentice all the way from Masamune forging Katana to present day, so if your razor was individually handled and forged into shape by a blacksmith then that’s a portion of the performance difference. Also it’s worth noting that the blacksmiths are steel snobs, because they handle the stuff all day every day. They won’t make a blade from steel that fails to meet their very high expectations. When they find a batch of metal that exceeds their expectations they buy up all they can and hoard it In The back of their shop so they can have predictable metal behavior and squeeze every ounce of performance out of each blade with minimal warps and cracks in quenching.
All the haters or modern blade makers will flame me for this, but again this is accepted truth in other social circles where the honing:use ratio is much higher and people develop a more serious appreciation for their metallurgy. I’ve read repeatedly on here where people post “I’ve used all those different steels, there’s no difference”. Not seeing a difference in your own hands and use doesn’t eliminate the difference. The difference is felt and seen way out in the limits of keen and edge retention, and it has to be seen to be believed.
The CV Heljestrand fanboys know there’s a metallurgy difference in their prized blades. The Japanese blacksmiths bought up those same Swedish tool steels and then hand hammered them and made them harder with a water quench and very little tempering, as is their blade smithing tradition.
Here’s my opinion which is going to be unpopular here, but is widely accepted as common sense on woodworking forums... There is a DRAMATIC difference between a blade that was manufactured by the best company, and a blade that was actually forged by a highly skilled blacksmith.
We all have this NEED to believe that modern science and mass produced cold-rolled tool steels are superior to old small batch steels, but they just aren’t. We have this NEED to believe that the precision alloying of a modern steel will have a bigger impact on edge keenness or durability than the handling of that steel in the forging process, but it just doesn’t. I have hundreds of different woodworking tools made all manner of ways, and my modern powder metal super steel chisels can’t hold a candle to my hideous plain high carbon steel chisels that were hand hammered to shape in a 3 heat forging process and then aggressively cold water quenched by an unknown 86yr old Japanese blacksmith.
The Japanese blacksmithing tradition continued unbroken master to apprentice all the way from Masamune forging Katana to present day, so if your razor was individually handled and forged into shape by a blacksmith then that’s a portion of the performance difference. Also it’s worth noting that the blacksmiths are steel snobs, because they handle the stuff all day every day. They won’t make a blade from steel that fails to meet their very high expectations. When they find a batch of metal that exceeds their expectations they buy up all they can and hoard it In The back of their shop so they can have predictable metal behavior and squeeze every ounce of performance out of each blade with minimal warps and cracks in quenching.
All the haters or modern blade makers will flame me for this, but again this is accepted truth in other social circles where the honing:use ratio is much higher and people develop a more serious appreciation for their metallurgy. I’ve read repeatedly on here where people post “I’ve used all those different steels, there’s no difference”. Not seeing a difference in your own hands and use doesn’t eliminate the difference. The difference is felt and seen way out in the limits of keen and edge retention, and it has to be seen to be believed.
The CV Heljestrand fanboys know there’s a metallurgy difference in their prized blades. The Japanese blacksmiths bought up those same Swedish tool steels and then hand hammered them and made them harder with a water quench and very little tempering, as is their blade smithing tradition.
Agreed, Anyone not shaving their mustache and chin is ill-informed. Even worse are those with beards, full of shaving advise especially honing. If you don't shave these areas regularly you have no real knowledge what you are talking about. It’s like a runner only doing the mile but giving advise on marathons.
All that to get a good shave? I look at use value. A $4 gd can get me a bbs in 3 passes and a dfs in one. So a blade made by a "master" will do exactly what for me? And i get close to 100 shaves on one hone without paste. Clean linen and leather only. Honing a razor 3 times a year is not a burden imo.
Here is a question that continues to plague me. Why would someone with fast growing hair and coarse to boot, interested in shaving the whole face, not eventually use the medium(s) that produce the best cutting edge?
If I shaved only the sides of my face a Coticule edge would suffice.
If I shaved only the sides of my face a Coticule edge would suffice.
- Thread starter
- #30
Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
Very interesting post.
I have no basis for knowing if what you're saying is correct but it makes very good sense to me that it would be.
I have more Japanese razors to shave with. Some need honing first, but not all. I wonder if they will shave as well as the first Japanese razor I used (photo above). Particularly I wonder how my own honing of them will go as compared with the super nicely honed Japanese razor edge which has now become a benchmark for me.
I know my latest effort (on a not easy to hone Herder) produced a very nice and sharp edge. I used no pasted strops or anything like that. Only the Chosera 1K and the Double Convex Arkansas.
Can I ask a question?
It might be naive for me to assume all Japanese razors are equally well made. The razor I pictured above and have shaved with is a brand I've never heard of (although one member said it was great). I know there are brands which are highly regarded. I know there are a great many names and brands and much to learn. What I don't know is how to tell the best from the rest? Are all Japanese razors made in the way you describe? Is it possible to pick the better (or best) examples from the herd? How?
If I read you right, much of the outcome with these fine Japanese razors is purely a function of the Swedish steel, but some is also the blacksmithing.
It would be incorrect for anyone to think I know anything much about steel, but I've read that Swedish steel is a term which doesn't mean the steel comes from Sweden. It means a type of steel. Is that your understanding, or has someone passed on misinformation which I've bought into?
If you get flamed so be it, but I appreciate your information.
Happy shaves,
Jim
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There’s value in a $4 wonky Chinese razor that shaves great once cleaned up, and there’s an entirely different value in a truly hand made razor from an old experienced master craftsman. Both have their own very different set of merits.
As far as what’s the benefit in use, it’s Only really observable in honing and use when you’re pushing the limits of what the steel can handle and if you don’t observe or appreciate a difference that’s cool, nobody is making you buy a fancy razor.
As far as these blades being way overkill for Getting a good shave I’m with you. I’m not on team gold dollar, but I’m not far off- on team $20 ebay American vintages. I also drive a 7yr old pickup, because cars are about utility in getting point a to point b.l as far as I’m concerned and I usually drive the speed limit. I can still appreciate that there’s a huge difference between my truck and a Porsche once you start driving outside normal commuting conditions and speeds.
I have a small collection of pocket knives. Different steels etc. The s110v gets dull when I hit something hard. As does the carbon steel. Now the s110v is harder than the carbon. So let's just say it's better for a minute. It is better actually. But the minute I hit something hard with it, it dulls as does the carbon blade. Now in some instances like cutting rope or cardboard the s110v will last longer than the carbon. But that's not what I typically use a knife for. If I was cutting cardboard or rope all day long then it is more useful and needs less maintenance. But if I hit a stone, piece of metal, glass etc it doesn't matter what you use is my point. They would both require a touch-up. For shaving I find that honing three times a year is not something that I find to be a problem. But different things drive different people. Better is a hard word to grasp. It could be said that 40 gold dollars will last much longer than one $200 razor. Even if you ding it once a week. Lol
Very interesting post.
I have no basis for knowing if what you're saying is correct but it makes very good sense to me that it would be.
View attachment 996113
I have more Japanese razors to shave with. Some need honing first, but not all. I wonder if they will shave as well as the first Japanese razor I used (photo above). Particularly I wonder how my own honing of them will go as compared with the super nicely honed Japanese razor edge which has now become a benchmark for me.
I know my latest effort (on a not easy to hone Herder) produced a very nice and sharp edge. I used no pasted strops or anything like that. Only the Chosera 1K and the Double Convex Arkansas.
Can I ask a question?
It might be naive for me to assume all Japanese razors are equally well made. The razor I pictured above and have shaved with is a brand I've never heard of (although one member said it was great). I know there are brands which are highly regarded. I know there are a great many names and brands and much to learn. What I don't know is how to tell the best from the rest? Are all Japanese razors made in the way you describe? Is it possible to pick the better (or best) examples from the herd? How?
If I read you right, much of the outcome with these fine Japanese razors is purely a function of the Swedish steel, but some is also the blacksmithing.
It would be incorrect for anyone to think I know anything much about steel, but I've read that Swedish steel is a term which doesn't mean the steel comes from Sweden. It means a type of steel. Is that your understanding, or has someone passed on misinformation which I've bought into?
If you get flamed so be it, but I appreciate your information.
Happy shaves,
Jim
Of course you are right in saying they’re not ALL of this quality and I honestly haven’t researched the Japanese western style straight razors enough to say more than Fukutaro Tanifuji Makes razors the way I like them, and Iwasaki razors are legendary for focusing on perfecting their metallurgy. I know there are a dozen or more that I’d be happy with I just haven’t experimented that deeply yet, but I’d be willing to buy a Kikuboshi or Hayashi Diamond based on their reputations. I’d be way more useful for hand forged plane blade or chisel recommendations, I’m afraid.
As far as the steel question goes, it can be tough to separate the marketing terms from actual origin and composition sometimes. By and large though the Swedish steel label doesn’t mean whether or not the steel was made in Sweden, it means the steel is composed of Swedish iron ore which is very pure from phosphorus and sulfur and makes ideal edge tool steel. Many of the best Sheffield steel manufacturers were using Swedish ores, and some in industrial America too. It seems like Japanese blacksmiths of old developed a particular infatuation with old Sheffield made steels and Swedish made steels because they were the first imported there that could make a razor sharp edge on par with tamahagane, and they drastically reduced the rate of flaws developing in their hard work during forging and quenching.
If a blade is from a known blacksmith like Tanifuji I’d be a little bit less concerned about what specific steel it is, because that blacksmith isn’t going to use a garbage steel ingot to start with. The only steels you’re likely to see touted in marketing hype by a Japanese blacksmith will be OLD Sheffield or Swedish steels, or true Tamahagane. Anything not surrounded by marketing hype is still likely a phenomenal product, maybe just a high carbon steel from the Hitachi metals Yasuki plant so it’s not something exotic or sexy in the Japanese domestic marketplace. I can’t believe there isn’t more hype in the razor community about the Yasuki tool steels though, it’s good stuff.
I totally agree with your point here, I’ve got a drawer full of American vintage razors that hold an edge just fine and shave great for way less money. 40 gold dollars have WAY more utility in them than one $200 razor.
It seems like you’re getting hung up on edge retention as the only way to be “better” as a razor, and you’re still giving your pocket knife argument in terms of steel 1 vs steel 2. We can drop the steel portion completely and focus on production.
What I’m saying is many Japanese razors were made in a completely different way, similar to how the very earliest “cast steel” Sheffield razors would’ve been made up until the mid 1800s. An edge tool made by a blacksmith is superior in many subtle ways to a mass produced edge tool and it’s not something that’s easy to quantify, and when you quantify it it’s not a big enough measured difference to justify the cost. The closest parallel is a Mercedes vs similar sized Kia. Either car can easily meet or exceed the speed limit, either gets you from A to B, same number of seats, both may have leather seats and XM radio, Kia probably gets better mileage... why on earth would anyone ever want to own the Mercedes?
Everyone who makes razors currently will swear there’s no benefit to hammering the steel into shape over the course of a few heat cycles, but when you handle the very best cold rolled then machined blade and then handle a good blacksmithed blade there’s no contest between them. The hammered edge will get sharper than the milled edge with no added effort and then hold it longer.
I don't see his argument as a person being "hung up" on anything. To me he is saying that some tools can withstand the task better than others. Mercedes are known to last longer than throw away cars. At least that was true back when the 240 diesel was in production. You pay more up front, but overall the cost is less. Is this true for razors? I doubt it. Men pay a bunch for hand made razors for the satisfaction of owning one.
BTW, a seven year old truck is new to me. When you can say you drive a good performing 20 year old vehicle, you have my attention.
- Thread starter
- #36
Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
I think of my almost ten year old Toyota Highlander as new. It seems new, drives new, feels new, etc. to me.
It's been a very long time since I bought a brand new vehicle. I've had far more trouble with new vehicles than used.
What's that got to do with razors and shaving? Probably everything and nothing. There are a great many things to wear out when we're talking vehicles, but razors, properly cared for, should last a very very long time and be "good as new."
I don't think of buying a pre-1892 Wade as a problem if it looks pretty good. Driving on a daily basis a very old vehicle (let's say half as old as the vintage razor)? Well, not me.
Happy shaves,
Jim
It's been a very long time since I bought a brand new vehicle. I've had far more trouble with new vehicles than used.
What's that got to do with razors and shaving? Probably everything and nothing. There are a great many things to wear out when we're talking vehicles, but razors, properly cared for, should last a very very long time and be "good as new."
I don't think of buying a pre-1892 Wade as a problem if it looks pretty good. Driving on a daily basis a very old vehicle (let's say half as old as the vintage razor)? Well, not me.
Happy shaves,
Jim
Thing is, if you want to drive your car forever you have to do the maintenance. I figure this is true for razors as well. I have a daily system where I clean, strop to dry, hand strop, and lay out to dry.
You guys crack me up sometimes, so it’s a bad analogy...
All I’m saying is the handmade Japanese razors are appreciably better than gold dollars in a few hard to describe ways. Old hand made Sheffield razors are better too, just tempered softer. Nobody is making anybody buy one, but OP got a taste of superior craftsmanship in metallurgy so that’s why I posted the little bit that I know firsthand. Everyone can go back to their regular programming now.
All I’m saying is the handmade Japanese razors are appreciably better than gold dollars in a few hard to describe ways. Old hand made Sheffield razors are better too, just tempered softer. Nobody is making anybody buy one, but OP got a taste of superior craftsmanship in metallurgy so that’s why I posted the little bit that I know firsthand. Everyone can go back to their regular programming now.
- Thread starter
- #40
Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
I'm posting something I stole from an older thread.
I've been reading about nano cloth and 'roo on glass and CBN and diamond sprays and all that stuff. I notice a good many gentlemen who are still around this place were reading about the same things and writing about the same things in olden days like 2012.
It also occurs to me that I can greatly improve the edge I've gotten with a stone by taking it to the pasted strops I already have (CrOx and Dovo Red and Dovo Black). I'm not entirely sure what their grit and micron sizes are, but I know the shaves off the pasted strops feel like these strops made the edge sharper.
I notice that my view of my shaves isn't something I can measure, but that doesn't make Lord K or Yoda right.
Happy shaves,
Jim
I've been reading about nano cloth and 'roo on glass and CBN and diamond sprays and all that stuff. I notice a good many gentlemen who are still around this place were reading about the same things and writing about the same things in olden days like 2012.
It also occurs to me that I can greatly improve the edge I've gotten with a stone by taking it to the pasted strops I already have (CrOx and Dovo Red and Dovo Black). I'm not entirely sure what their grit and micron sizes are, but I know the shaves off the pasted strops feel like these strops made the edge sharper.
I notice that my view of my shaves isn't something I can measure, but that doesn't make Lord K or Yoda right.
Happy shaves,
Jim
